1 hour ago, Jaric256 said:

Is Gideon the problem or is it the command cards? I've used some combination of Jabba and either 3po/Gideon in my Hunter lists and really didn't notice a difference one way or the other.

On the other hand, bad card draw is devastating to the ultimate outcome. I don't think it's the focus that makes a scum Hunter list dangerous, its the ridiculous burst damage potential achievable by stacking those command cards everyone hates (or loves if you're playing a Hunter list).

If the goal is to rebalance hunters (and I don't think that much rebalancing needs to be done) I think the best way is through command card restrictions.

Which still doesn't mean the overabundance of the elements of the RCP in scum isn't something that shouldn't be addressed. I'm of the opinion that scum centric alternatives that fill a similar role is the answer to that particular riddle.

Edit: Also, I'm all about that Jabba life, so I'm 100% on board with him being part of the support figures scum uses.

I think a lot of fixes could be handled via command cards. I find these sweeping cost reductions problematic, but I'm trying to keep an open mind.

33 minutes ago, Rikalonius said:

I think a lot of fixes could be handled via command cards. I find these sweeping cost reductions problematic, but I'm trying to keep an open mind.

It's not ideal, but the problem we find ourselves in, is because we're not getting new content, what the meta is now will be the meta for as long as the game exists. Which sucks because the majority of deployments don't really fit in to the current meta.

I tend to put these cards into two different groups. Well designed cards that simply cost too much (Kayn Somos for example) and just poorly designed cards (Saska for example.). The easiest way to bring a lot of deployments back in to the meta is to recost several of the latter group and then work on updating the former.

None of this is ideal, and wouldn't be necessary if FFG was going to continue issuing new content. But they aren't, and darnit I've spent hundreds of dollars on this game and I didn't do that to play the same 4/5 lists over and over in perpetuity.

So, while I share your concerns, the problematic nature of sweeping changes like this is by far the lesser evil compared to just doing nothing and getting super bored. In my opinion at least.

2 hours ago, Jaric256 said:

It's not ideal, but the problem we find ourselves in, is because we're not getting new content, what the meta is now will be the meta for as long as the game exists. Which sucks because the majority of deployments don't really fit in to the current meta.

I tend to put these cards into two different groups. Well designed cards that simply cost too much (Kayn Somos for example) and just poorly designed cards (Saska for example.). The easiest way to bring a lot of deployments back in to the meta is to recost several of the latter group and then work on updating the former.

None of this is ideal, and wouldn't be necessary if FFG was going to continue issuing new content. But they aren't, and darnit I've spent hundreds of dollars on this game and I didn't do that to play the same 4/5 lists over and over in perpetuity.

So, while I share your concerns, the problematic nature of sweeping changes like this is by far the lesser evil compared to just doing nothing and getting super bored. In my opinion at least.

All FFG producing new content would do was just make a new meta, and likely, based on the last couple expansions, more power creep, thus eliminating even more figures from the meta. To me, the problem is that some newer figures simply cost to little. Obviously Boba Fett and RGC are over-costed based just on expansions like Bespin, but from then on, the cost has crept downward, and the abilities have crept up. Spectre Cell just makes character that already cost to little even more powerful. So, I will stress, again, the better way to fix the problem is to increase the cost of some figures to balance out the meta, rather than these sweeping reductions. I think, however, a psychological block on the idea of increasing figure costs. It seems people are much more willing to accept reductions. At this point, with FFG saying they are done, it isn't like we have to worry about another round of characters who are even cheaper coming along.

11 minutes ago, Rikalonius said:

All FFG producing new content would do was just make a new meta, and likely, based on the last couple expansion, more power creed, thus eliminating even more figures from the meta. To me, the problem is that some newer figures simply cost to little. Obviously Boba Fett and RGC are over-costed based just on expansions like Bespin, but from then on, the cost has crept downward, and the abilities have crept up. Spectre Cell just makes character that already cost to little even more powerful. So, I will stress, again, the better way to fix the problem is to increase the cost of some figures to balance out the meta, rather than these sweeping reductions. I think, however, a psychological block on the idea of increasing figure costs. It seems people are much more willing to accept reductions. At this point, with FFG saying they are done, it isn't like we have to worry about another round of characters who are even cheaper coming along.

I think this comes down to personal preference. Personally, I like those figures that have "power crept" up and wish the older figures would be on that same level. Of course, if you preferred the power level of the older figures, you're going to take the opposite approach. Which is fine, just a difference of opinion.

It's entirely possible this is a result of coming to skirmish a little later, having spent the first year or two really focusing on campaign mode and so my "normal" is right around the Jabba/Empire meta.

6 hours ago, Jaric256 said:

If you're going to make it so scum players can't bring Gideon, you need to offer an alternative or you're just weakening an entire archetype.

Fortunately, a figure already exist that simply needs a little tweaking.

Enter the regular clawdite. All that needs to be done is a slight tweak to the conspire ability.

"Roll your attack pool plus a yellow die. Distribute [wild] power tokens to yourself or any friendly figure in your line of sight equal to the number of surge results plus 1 to a maximum of 3".

Now I'll actually bring one instead of temp alliancing Gideon into my scum lists.

I'll respectfully disagree here. Only beast lists will suffer from losing out on Gideon. I can't remember when I last used Gideon in scum since Jabba came around, except for Bantha lists where the movement text is very important. Jabba does so much more work, and with him and a eJawa you still get 3PO and don't waste a point on Temp.

Obviously there are different schools, but I don't think you're weakening scum at all with a change to Gideon. However, you will lose out on fun and interesting list possiblities by removing Temp. That said, I wish the Clawdite was slightly better as well. I for sure thought it would be better than it turned out.

...

55 minutes ago, aermet69 said:

I'll respectfully disagree here. Only beast lists will suffer from losing out on Gideon. I can't remember when I last used Gideon in scum since Jabba came around, except for Bantha lists where the movement text is very important. Jabba does so much more work, and with him and a eJawa you still get 3PO and don't waste a point on Temp.

Obviously there are different schools, but I don't think you're weakening scum at all with a change to Gideon. However, you will lose out on fun and interesting list possiblities by removing Temp. That said, I wish the Clawdite was slightly better as well. I for sure thought it would be better than it turned out.

The issues with the Clawdite (as I see them) are that I'm not all that keen on bringing a support figure who might not actually be able to offer support if I low roll. Also, the adjacency requirement really cuts down on who I can actually support effectively. This isn't like a focus which just effects a single figure, I'm trying to spread out the power tokens among my figures to actually make this worthwhile.

The other forms offer some nice versitility late game when support figures often turn into cleanup figures, but no one is bringing clawdites primarily for their offensive ability. It's a nice little bonus to be able turn into a moderately useful attack figure, but there are way better Hunter options at 4 and 6 points respectively if that's what you're looking for to round out a list.

I'm with you 100% on being against removing temp alliance. It really opens up some interesting combos (Jedi Luke/rancor anyone?). Unfortunately it tends to be used primarily to bring in some element if the RCP because outside of Jabba I'm not all that keen on my scum support figure options.

The Clawdite could fill that role, it just needs a little more functionality to be worth bringing over currently superior options.

Although speaking of beast lists, the Clawdite changes I'm arguing for would (I think) help creature lists more than Gideon.

Rancors love surge and evade tokens. Just saying

40 minutes ago, Jaric256 said:

The issues with the Clawdite (as I see them) are that I'm not all that keen on bringing a support figure who might not actually be able to offer support if I low roll. Also, the adjacency requirement really cuts down on who I can actually support effectively. This isn't like a focus which just effects a single figure, I'm trying to spread out the power tokens among my figures to actually make this worthwhile.

The other forms offer some nice versitility late game when support figures often turn into cleanup figures, but no one is bringing clawdites primarily for their offensive ability. It's a nice little bonus to be able turn into a moderately useful attack figure, but there are way better Hunter options at 4 and 6 points respectively if that's what you're looking for to round out a list.

I'm with you 100% on being against removing temp alliance. It really opens up some interesting combos (Jedi Luke/rancor anyone?). Unfortunately it tends to be used primarily to bring in some element if the RCP because outside of Jabba I'm not all that keen on my scum support figure options.

The Clawdite could fill that role, it just needs a little more functionality to be worth bringing over currently superior options.

I'm more for changing the Merc Temp alliance into a Rebel one, and removing it from the Merc faction so it like the Imperial one.

1 hour ago, Rikalonius said:

I'm more for changing the Merc Temp alliance into a Rebel one, and removing it from the Merc faction so it like the Imperial one.

I'll concede it makes way more sense to hire Mercs into rebels than vice-versa.

Or, if we're taking card change suggestions, let's turn Saska into a rebel Jawa and get this party started!

13 hours ago, Rikalonius said:

I think, however, a psychological block on the idea of increasing                     figure costs. It seems people are much more willin  g to accept reductions.   

Looking deep within myself, I think you’re right about this statement. And it would probably be wise to adjust costs both ways to avoid much bigger lists and other unforeseen issues. Then again, it’s already hard to fit in several of ones favorites in one list and it’ll be a shame to make that to difficult. The fixes and cost reduction we saw in HotE was great for this reason.

17 hours ago, Jaric256 said:

Is Gideon the problem or is it the command cards?

Why can’t it be both?

19 hours ago, aermet69 said:

I'll respectfully disagree here. Only beast lists will suffer from losing out on Gideon. I can't remember when I last used Gideon in scum since Jabba came around, except for Bantha lists where the movement text is very important. Jabba does so much more work, and with him and a eJawa you still get 3PO and don't waste a point on Temp.

Obviously there are different schools, but I don't think you're weakening scum at all with a change to Gideon. However, you will lose out on fun and interesting list possiblities by removing Temp. That said, I wish the Clawdite was slightly better as well. I for sure thought it would be better than it turned out.

I tend to agree with you also, we've seen a lot less gideon temped into merc lately. It's more common to see sabine these days. Which means nerfing gideon doesn't actually change much besides decreasing merc's options. If we restricted gideon to rebel only then jabba becomes auto include. To me that's worse than the current meta where the are a couple viable variations of merc support packages.

4 hours ago, brettpkelly said:

I tend to agree with you also, we've seen a lot less gideon temped into merc lately. It's more common to see sabine these days. Which means nerfing gideon doesn't actually change much besides decreasing merc's options. If we restricted gideon to rebel only then jabba becomes auto include. To me that's worse than the current meta where the are a couple viable variations of merc support packages.

Indeed Jabba does, and this is because everyone wants a focus vending machine in the their list to be competitive. It's annoying when that happens.

1 hour ago, Rikalonius said:

Indeed Jabba does, and this is because everyone wants a focus vending machine in the their list to be competitive. It's annoying when that happens.

What would you want a support figure to look like?

6 hours ago, brettpkelly said:

I tend to agree with you also, we've seen a lot less gideon temped into merc lately. It's more common to see sabine these days. Which means nerfing gideon doesn't actually change much besides decreasing merc's options. If we restricted gideon to rebel only then jabba becomes auto include. To me that's worse than the current meta where the are a couple viable variations of merc support packages.

That seems like the least elegant solution to me. I'd much rather prefer to dilute Gideon via competitive options as opposed to banning. The more hard choices I have to make when list building the more interesting I find the process.

15 hours ago, Jaric256 said:

That seems like the least elegant solution to me. I'd much rather prefer to dilute Gideon via competitive options as opposed to banning. The more hard choices I have to make when list building the more interesting I find the process.

I don't want to see any banning either. I've always thought that both 3P0 and Gideon should have the words "Rebel" added to their Focusing abilities. If you want to bring Gideon and Ahsoka into a Merc list then that's fine, but Gideon will only be able to buff Ahsoka and not eWeequays.

I also like the idea of improving the Clawdites. I think a cost reduction from 6 to 5 for the eClawdite would put them approximately where they need to be. Perhaps add a reroll to the Senator shape's Conspire ability, because it really does suck to roll 0 or 1 surge on your big "buff turn."