New Deathwatch Designer Diary: Chapters of the Deathwatch, Part 6

By FFG Ross Watson, in Deathwatch

BrotherHostower said:

Yes it's cannon that they use psycho-indoctrination to speed-teach (almost matrix style but not as fast) their skills and precepts the marine will need. They also use it for mind cleansing marines that might have seen "too much." Unlike say, an Imperial Guardsman who is unlucky enough to fight something truely evil (like a daemon incursion), space marines are too valuable to just kill for knowing too much (ref: armaggedon 1). However, this does not neccessarily elminate individual thought, how far the indoctrination goes is chapter dependant, with Ultras probably being at the top of the wipe out individuality and space pups at the bottom. Sons of Dorn I think is the only SM book I can immediately think of that gives us a view of what their psycho-indoctrination does (as much as I didn't like the book itself and thought it was the first time BL has put out Imp Fists that I didn't almost immediately like).

As for the Storm Warden chapter, have you not noticed that the "official" DIY chapters seem to be combo chaps? The Blood Ravens from THQ are a mix blood angels/dark angels chapter, these look like mix ultras/dark angels, nothing wrong with that. In fact, in what, the last 5 chapter revelation threads people wanted exactly this, NOT one of the normal 1st founding chapters but something FFG made. Ta-da! This isn't your standard DIY chapter either, as he worked with GW to make it, which would make it as official as you can get.

The Blood Ravens don't share anything other than red armor and the word blood in chapter name with the Blood Angels.

And if you look at their actual fluff, they are a librarian heavy chapter, and give librarians more authority than other chapters (to the point of librarian company commanders and I do believe the fluff references a librarian as chapter master as well at some point in their history). So, no, not much at all like any of the other loyalist chapters outside of the Grey Knights...

A pretty balanced, Pendragon-mythos inspired chapter, IMHO. Including a brand new one was a good choice. Would have preferred the dark horse to be Raven Guard, but on the other hand didn't really expect that to happen (only 1st founding without custom shoulder pads won't get any special treatment anywhere). Doubt any of my players will want to roll up a Storm Warden, but they'll be nice to include as NPCs.

wow ... I have to admit, I was expecting something truly interesting in the FFG homebrew chapter. But to my great sadness, I find myself in the same camp as most of the other posters ... meaning I am sorely disappointed in the result. Yeah, it has some small RP potential, but ... it just doesn't rise to the level we had been given to believe we should expect. It seems, to my humble mind, like a half-hearted attempt at a amalgamation of the Dark Angels and the Blood Ravens. And even then, it doesn't, based on the DD, seem to be well thought out. My apologies, FFG, but I was expecting more from you. preocupado.gif

Segmentum Tempestus = Storm Wardens aplauso.gif

I'd hit it. With a shovel. I guess alternative name was Shrouded Warriors, since there is a connection with Callixis and Segmentum Obscurus. Which would've been better, imo. More 'stealthy' that way.

Anyway, I am dissapoint, FFG. Too bland and colorless chapter. They truly do look like smurfs (and by that I really mean the smurfs from the cartoon), even more so than Ultras. I just like how all the new chapters have the amnesia of not knowing anything about themselves or their Primarch. But it's really nice that this guys can debate. That will surely prove useful when negotiating with Xenos and Heretics...oh wait...you get my point.

I guess it was pretty obvious to expect the 'big' 5, but man did I dare to hope for some new cool chapter. And since you guys had free hands to generate a truly unique, FFG chapter if you like, you messed it up by writing the most boring and all seen background material without anything interesting to add up in their fluff. And of course, custom chapter generation will be in DW GM screen, am I right?

My 2 thrones.

Cardinal Nicodemus said:

Segmentum Tempestus = Storm Wardens aplauso.gif

I'd hit it. With a shovel. I guess alternative name was Shrouded Warriors, since there is a connection with Callixis and Segmentum Obscurus. Which would've been better, imo. More 'stealthy' that way.

Anyway, I am dissapoint, FFG. Too bland and colorless chapter. They truly do look like smurfs (and by that I really mean the smurfs from the cartoon), even more so than Ultras. I just like how all the new chapters have the amnesia of not knowing anything about themselves or their Primarch. But it's really nice that this guys can debate. That will surely prove useful when negotiating with Xenos and Heretics...oh wait...you get my point.

I guess it was pretty obvious to expect the 'big' 5, but man did I dare to hope for some new cool chapter. And since you guys had free hands to generate a truly unique, FFG chapter if you like, you messed it up by writing the most boring and all seen background material without anything interesting to add up in their fluff. And of course, custom chapter generation will be in DW GM screen, am I right?

My 2 thrones.

Nah...

Those will be in the book with the really cool First Founding chapters, you know the hardcover that we'll see in April 2011 or later (based on the time difference between RT and LotE).

The DM screen will probably have something else, like vehicles or xenos.

I knew we were not going to get the Imperial Fists the moment that the Black Templars were confirmed, being as the Templars are an Imperial Fists successor chapter. It would have been nice to get one of the "fast strike" specialist chapters such as the Raven Guard or White Scars, but it looks like we will have to wait on that. In the meantime those that want to make such characters could go for Dark Angels that have served in the Ravenwing prior to Deathwatch service.

Still, since we knew there was going to be one brand new chapter in Deathwatch I was rather hoping it would be the Hammers of Retribution. Oh well. At least my beloved Dark Angels are in there. I am a bit disappointed though, since I was looking forward to at least the temptation of some new and exciting chapter.

Let us all hope that the "build a chapter" rules are well written and become available soon after the core book comes out. Perhaps a "Chapter Master's Handbook" with similar character background rules expansions as IH had for DH? That would be potential bliss!

Wow, the indignant nerd rage flows over color scheme, “they aren't the chapter that I designed”, and what equates to a half page of teaser fluff.

So the Storm Wardens are intellectuals who are capable of thinking for themselves and due to the fact they are not vampires in space, Vikings in space, knights in space, broody emo monks in space, or poster boys in space they must have no personality at all. And they are Blue! They suck (sarcasm).

I didn't realize people hated the color blue so much.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Wow, the indignant nerd rage flows over color scheme, “they aren't the chapter that I designed”, and what equates to a half page of teaser fluff.

So the Storm Wardens are intellectuals who are capable of thinking for themselves and due to the fact they are not vampires in space, Vikings in space, knights in space, broody emo monks in space, or poster boys in space they must have no personality at all. And they are Blue! They suck (sarcasm).

I didn't realize people hated the color blue so much.

Emo's in space! XD

Wow a lot of people are quick to judge. I think they look interesting personally even if they do scream Ultramarines successor. I'll be interested to read about them in the book when it comes out.

Yea they're rather cliched but factor in creating a chapter that needs to have an interesting history, feasable connection to the Inquisition and some room for expansion (since they won't have a years of codex & White Dwarf hostory). Perhaps FFG should of ran a competition to design a chapter for the book, in fact if you've a better chapter why not post it in a new thread and show how much more creative you are?

Darkshroud said:

Wow a lot of people are quick to judge. I think they look interesting personally even if they do scream Ultramarines successor. I'll be interested to read about them in the book when it comes out.

Yea they're rather cliched but factor in creating a chapter that needs to have an interesting history, feasable connection to the Inquisition and some room for expansion (since they won't have a years of codex & White Dwarf hostory). Perhaps FFG should of ran a competition to design a chapter for the book, in fact if you've a better chapter why not post it in a new thread and show how much more creative you are?

I'm always up for reading fan created stuff, but it'd be a bit unfair to compare a fan made Chapter that might be posted here to one we're going to have to pay money to read about. I don't doubt some of the top dogs here could create a more interesting Chapter than the Storm Wardens mind you.

One of my players had an idea for a Chapter that functioned (either officially or unofficially) as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Sicarus (the arm of the Inquisition that deals with the Assassinorum) for example. That could be really fun.

Wow...seriously...

The Storm Wardens appear on the surface somewhat average and the colour scheme may seem...bland. But hey they didn't stink so much as some of the early chapters in White Dwarf after Rogue Trader came out (ie the Mentor Legion springs to mind). I'm sure there's more fluff on the Storm Wardens in the DW book when it comes out in the summer, but as I said previously it's not wholly the Chapters that'll make the game...

(Intellectual space marines? So the Storm Wardens are Samurai Space Marines?)

BrotherHostower said:

Yes it's cannon that they use psycho-indoctrination to speed-teach (almost matrix style but not as fast) their skills and precepts the marine will need. They also use it for mind cleansing marines that might have seen "too much."

Rictus said:

Wow...seriously...

The Storm Wardens appear on the surface somewhat average and the colour scheme may seem...bland. But hey they didn't stink so much as some of the early chapters in White Dwarf after Rogue Trader came out (ie the Mentor Legion springs to mind ). I'm sure there's more fluff on the Storm Wardens in the DW book when it comes out in the summer, but as I said previously it's not wholly the Chapters that'll make the game...

(Intellectual space marines? So the Storm Wardens are Samurai Space Marines?)

The Mentor Legion isn't that bad, in fact their tactics make sense. The use of the idea "one conflict, one squad" is rather brilliant considering that there are a lot of conflicts that do not warrant the deployment of larger space marine forces. Examples for them may be small scale dark eldar/eldar raids, splinter fleets that run on fumes etc. Deploying a single squad of space marines would give any IG regiment a real edge against such dangerous enemies, because it would bring to the table a lot of combat experience and knowledge that the IG commander would probably lack. Add to this the fact that the SM themselves would perform missions deemed suicidal for a typical human and you have a very plausible explanation for the existence of the Mentor Legion.

And now a look from the DW perspective (assuming that the Mentors are inside [either homebrewed with Chapter Creation Rules or official]):

The Mentor marine would be an asset to any DW team that has to deal with human governors, generals, arbites marshals etc. due to their familiarity with them. Additionaly the modus operandi of the Chapter would make the Mentor a source of knowledge about their enemy comparable with members of certain chapters that specialize in fighting certain enemies (e.g. Ultramarine Tyranic War veterans).

[sarcasm]But you know what, you're right. They stink, because they aren't brainwashed automatons that can only kill others and can't think for themselves.[/sarcasm]

Greetings Arag:

IIRC the Mentor Legion appeared shortly after the first army list in White Dwarf mag during the 80's and I wasn't overly impressed with the write-up (seemed to be a specialised cadre of the Ultramarines with all their tech), compared to the Legion of the Damned article seemed boring...not to mention having no army list seemed a rather unimaginative chapter...

Then during a three-way battle btween my Eldar pirate army, an Ork pirate army and a Rogue Trader contingent the player of the rogue trader fielded a squad of Mentors. Was doing fine until the Mentors targeted my dreadnought/Wraithlord with their targeting web bolt-weapons and crippled it, quickly followed by the shredding of the two Ork Dreadnoughts which led to the Orks being picked off. Army survived with two thirds in casualty and all-but routed, the orks were wiped out whilst the Rogue Trader won. In the following battles the Rogue Trader army made consecutive victories...before running afoul of a chaos renegade army and barring their use after several complaints from other players to the referee.

I can see what you're getting at in dealing with Dark Eldar/similar opponents and propping up the IG, though taking into account that the old WD fluff had them fitted with a targeting web and specialised boltguns...which made them annoyingly effective in taking down amoured opponents...not to mention leaders/heroes in an army...

Wait a minute, wasn't their a DD a while back discussing the kind of mission parameters in which a DW Kill-Team would be called upon, one of which was assassination?

....

Ah-hah! send in the Mentors, they'll make an effieicent addition to the DW!

[Now all you have to do is take the traits for an Ultramarine in the forthcoming DW core rules, change the fluff to the Mentors and change their gear to mastercrafted weaponry as well as establish rules regarding the targeting web and all their other high tech gear. Or wait for the supplement with the DIY chapter rules (what are the chances it's going to be called Chapter Approved?)

demonio.gif

Arag said:

[sarcasm]But you know what, you're right. They stink, because they aren't brainwashed automatons that can only kill others and can't think for themselves.[/sarcasm]

I think that this somehow wonderfully shows that there is passionate interpretation about the differing "flavours" of Space Marines out there. I prefer my "average" Space Marine to be heavily psychoindoctrinated, perhaps even slightly hidebound ( Codex Astartes , etc.), manipulated/controlled by a series of cultural paradigms, but otherwise focused entirely upon their service to the Imperium (or Emperor). On the other hand, the wonderful conceit of roleplaying is that the PCs are already different from the norm, and this might be argued to be even more true when dealing with the Deathwatch.

Even with Kage-verse preference for "brainwashed automatons" (I usually use the term "psychopathic killers," which is as equally incorrect or as misleading as the contrasting term "noble knight"), I find this conceit strangely satisfying. It means that I can have, for the most part, the Marines that I prefer to interpret and still have a more dynamic, playable character. Both sides of the argument handled quite elegantly (so kudos to the person that suggested this over on another site), allowing the individual interpreter to make their own choice on this highly contentious subject.

All in all, though, this is one of the reasons that I'm looking forward to Deathwatch . I just want to see how Ross (and others) have handled all of this. Interesting stuff.

As to the apparent "outrage" over the colour blue, I'm reminded of a film scene that I think that we should all be wary of:

Bridgekeeper : Stop. What... is your name?

Galahad : Sir Galahad of Camelot.

Bridgekeeper : What... is your quest?

Galahad : I seek the Grail.

Bridgekeeper : What... is your favourite color?

Galahad : Blue. No, yel...

<Galahad is thrown over the edge into the abyss.>

Lest you be thrown into the pit of doom, be wary of armour colour discrimination. sorpresa.gif

Kage

In one of the HH novels it’s vaguely discussed that the bulk of the Astartes are close to being mindless automaton. It is only a very special few who show the personality and drive after conversion that is required to become a sergeant. Even fewer among those have the free thinking nature to become officers. The PC’s automatically fall into this group with the expectation that they could, in time, if they survive, eventually become candidates for captain, champion, or even chapter master.

I'm reposting more or less the same thing I posted as a comment on the diary:

How can the Storm Warden's Homeworld be made forbidden by the end of the Nemesis Incident (late M36/early M37 at the most) when the Calixis Sector did'nt exist and the area wasn't even in Imperial Space until the Angevin Crusade in M39, thus more than 2000 years later?

Shouldn't one of the rules of any CCR be: "Always check the timelines to make sure your creation fits in"?

One possible solution to that is that a sector does not necessarily need not be formed as a socio-political/astrographic entity even if there happens to be an Imperial presence in that location. The Storm Wardens could have been beyond the "fringe" for quite some time before it was formalised into a sector.

Just one possibility/thought, though.

Kage

Kage is right, don´t forget that even according the most recent SM dex some Chapters, for example Iron Lords and Death Spectres, have their home planets beyond the boundaries of Imperial Segmentums.

Well, fair enough...

But I hope this issue is mentionned in the complete text about them in the book, or I won't be able to help but think it was simply a mistake.

Nash said:

I'm reposting more or less the same thing I posted as a comment on the diary:

How can the Storm Warden's Homeworld be made forbidden by the end of the Nemesis Incident (late M36/early M37 at the most) when the Calixis Sector did'nt exist and the area wasn't even in Imperial Space until the Angevin Crusade in M39, thus more than 2000 years later?

Shouldn't one of the rules of any CCR be: "Always check the timelines to make sure your creation fits in"?

Good spot Nash! I'd missed that.

This is actually entirely typical of FFG, as evidenced by the Kobras Aquairre (sp?) timeline fluffs in RH. This is their setting and their timeline they don't seem to be able to properly reference and use, it's pretty terrible imo.

Yes we could just assume it's a typo, and state the planet is made forbidden later on (ie after Calixis Sector exists), but that would surely impact the Chapter history in other ways.

Yes, their homeworld may have been technically outside the Imperium ... but that's somewhat problematic too imo. For example, iirc the world in question is located in a region previously implied or stated to be under xenos domination (by the Adranti?) prior to the Crusade ... so we're now asked to accept that a SM Chapter had it's homeworld in such a wild region? Seems a bit implausible to say the least. Also why make a world outside the Imperium's borders forbidden? Aren't all worlds outside the Imperium forbidden anyway, except to RTs perhaps? Seems a bit shakey either way to me.

All in all, this sort of lack of care when it comes to previously established fluff info and detail is precisely the sort of thing I hate. It doesn't take much to avoid this kind of error, know your setting, and/or fact check.

Very sloppy.

Adam France said:

Yes, their homeworld may have been technically outside the Imperium ... but that's somewhat problematic too imo. For example, iirc the world in question is located in a region previously implied or stated to be under xenos domination (by the Adranti?) prior to the Crusade ... so we're now asked to accept that a SM Chapter had it's homeworld in such a wild region? Seems a bit implausible to say the least. Also why make a world outside the Imperium's borders forbidden? Aren't all worlds outside the Imperium forbidden anyway, except to RTs perhaps? Seems a bit shakey either way to me.

All in all, this sort of lack of care when it comes to previously established fluff info and detail is precisely the sort of thing I hate. It doesn't take much to avoid this kind of error, know your setting, and/or fact check.

Very sloppy.

Well, maybe corruption by Adranti recruits/war with Adranti was the reason of confiment. And yes, I don´t think that there is any problem with having chapter homeworld in such "wild" region. We have no fething idea where or how far beyond the imperial borders is Sternac, Homeworld of Iron Lords, we just know that it´s in proximity of "hyper-violent Barghesi of Grendl Stars" and tendrils of Hive Fleet Kraken and that sounds little bit "wilder" then pre-Angevin Calyx Expanse. Or Occludus, home of Death Spectres is somewhere in Ghoul Stars, in Halo Zone, what can be compared to Koronus Expanse on steroids.

You don´t need that great suspension of disbelief to believe that Storm Wardens had home world in area partialy rules by warp-infused xenos and xeno-tolerant, gene-twisting and advanced human empire.

Can you imagine how many chapters were cut from Imperium or settle in dark corners of Galaxy during such times as Age of Apostasy? Or Cursed Founding?

Adam France said:

Yes, their homeworld may have been technically outside the Imperium ... but that's somewhat problematic too imo.

Well, if you were going down that route one might also look at the type of stars that exist in the Halo Zone and begin to wonder if they are really all that habitable... Not to disagree, but in the craziness that is 40k it's always nice to have options, even if you don't believe in any of them.

Kage

TorogTarkdacil said:

Adam France said:

Yes, their homeworld may have been technically outside the Imperium ... but that's somewhat problematic too imo. For example, iirc the world in question is located in a region previously implied or stated to be under xenos domination (by the Adranti?) prior to the Crusade ... so we're now asked to accept that a SM Chapter had it's homeworld in such a wild region? Seems a bit implausible to say the least. Also why make a world outside the Imperium's borders forbidden? Aren't all worlds outside the Imperium forbidden anyway, except to RTs perhaps? Seems a bit shakey either way to me.

All in all, this sort of lack of care when it comes to previously established fluff info and detail is precisely the sort of thing I hate. It doesn't take much to avoid this kind of error, know your setting, and/or fact check.

Very sloppy.

Well, maybe corruption by Adranti recruits/war with Adranti was the reason of confiment. And yes, I don´t think that there is any problem with having chapter homeworld in such "wild" region. We have no fething idea where or how far beyond the imperial borders is Sternac, Homeworld of Iron Lords, we just know that it´s in proximity of "hyper-violent Barghesi of Grendl Stars" and tendrils of Hive Fleet Kraken and that sounds little bit "wilder" then pre-Angevin Calyx Expanse. Or Occludus, home of Death Spectres is somewhere in Ghoul Stars, in Halo Zone, what can be compared to Koronus Expanse on steroids.

You don´t need that great suspension of disbelief to believe that Storm Wardens had home world in area partialy rules by warp-infused xenos and xeno-tolerant, gene-twisting and advanced human empire.

Can you imagine how many chapters were cut from Imperium or settle in dark corners of Galaxy during such times as Age of Apostasy? Or Cursed Founding?

All possibly technically correct ... however look me in the eye (methophorically speaking) and tell me you don't believe this was actually a mistake made by the writer who just didn't check his timeline properly.

As I've said, this kind of (apparent) contradiction to already established Calixis canon is becoming almost par for the course.

No, actually you are most probably right that it is a mistake or lack of focus for detail.

But is mistake, which isn´t (by coincidence for example) wrong per se, a mistake at all? Does it realy all that scourging?