The rules and FAQ seem unclear on this. After picking a non-custum Pack, can you swap a Bonus Token in for a Special Object?

Don

From what I understand (I will double check), you can swap out Special Tokens in packs without penalty (when normally building a custom set of tokens you would have to go without a Special Token slot). Don't hold me to it, I will double check for you.....

This is what I am talking about...

Do you select a Pack (into which you can then swap Bonus Tokens) and THEN take the Special Object OR do you select a Pack and the Special Object and THEN swap in Bonus Tokens. The rules seem to suggest the former, in which case Special Objects may not be swapped out for Bonus Tokens. Anyone clearer on this?

Don

We're having the same discussion in our games. Put simply, can you swap a Bonus Token for Special object?

Marcus

No you can not switch the special item for a bonus token

From the FAQ

http://tannbunker.myfastforum.org/forum5.php

"To use a given Bonus Token, a player simply swaps it for one of the

character's other Equipment Tokens (after a Pack has been chosen

for that character). This does not a

ff ect whether the character's

Special Object is available. That is, if a player chooses a character's

Combat, Stamina, or Mental Pack and then swaps a Bonus Token for

one of that Pack's Equipment Tokens, then the Special Object

remains available. However, if a player chooses a custom Pack (i.e.,

the "á la carte" equipment option) for a character, the Special Object

remains unavailable, as normal, regardless of whether Bonus Tokens

are swapped in."

DHFrew3 said:

You select a pack which is 3 tokens if you pick a pack you get the special object, however you can switch tokens from that pack with the bonus tokens. If you do it will NOT affect you ability to get the special object.

Your explanation is still not that clear. I understand the differences between custom packs and pre-made packs. I also understand that you can swap Bonus Tokens for Equipment Tokens. I don't think the FAQ explicitly states that Special Objects cannot be swapped.

Now, if Equipment Tokens are specifically different than Special Objects (objects versus tokens) and Bonus TOKENS replace Equipment TOKENS, then I can live with that.

I want to replace Barry's Flash Machine Gun with the 54 Caliber hand gun and his Battery with the Bonus Token battery then have the commando switch his flashgun with Barry's hand gun. Then Barry would have the power of his original equipment (automatic kill on 9 and 10) but a more efficient range to work with. Add the vest and Barry is a total stud.

Marcus

Marcus said:

See there is the problem it is not me it is the way you are reading the rules, the BA-27 battery can only be connected to the flash machine gun.

The FAQ does not need to "explicitly state" that a special item can not be swaped. You can only switch a bonus token (tokens online) with an item from a pack, and for selecting a pack you get the special object.

Not that hard.

Here are 2 sets of texts that is in clear black and white

That is, if a player chooses a character's

Combat, Stamina, or Mental Pack and THEN swaps a Bonus Token for

one of that Pack's Equipment Tokens, THEN the Special Object

remains available. However, if a player chooses a custom Pack (i.e.,

the "á la carte" equipment option) for a character, the Special Object

remains unavailable, as normal, regardless of whether Bonus Tokens

are swapped in.

Sundance is correct, bonus tokens can't replace special items. If you build a custom pack, you lose the special item.

.

The Sundance Kid said:

I'm sorry Sundance, but apparently it is "that hard". The Bonus Token BA-29c Battery does connect to the flash-gun, not the flash machine gun. Additionally, your "black and white" text doesn't say that you cannot switch out the special equipment. I'm more than willing to accept that Special Objects are not Equipment Tokens (as I said in "black and white" in my post) and, therefore, cannot be switched with Bonus Tokens. Unfortunately, that is not what you responded to.

Marcus

littlewars said:

I know I am. =)

As for the battery thing you should ID which one as there are 2 batteries you are correct based on the battery you picked but did not post.

Not that hard as I said, special items as said in the rule book come from a set pack, bonus tokens can be switched with any token in the set pack (the 3 tokens to be clear)

But you still get the special object

It l=clearly says you can switch an item in the equipment pack, nothing about special equipment.

Thanks for for the clarification Sundance. The rules say you can switch out equipment and don't say anything about the special object. Therefore, we can assume that the special object cannot be switched out.

A simple, non-condescending answer would be more appropriate to an honest question.

Regarding the battery, I did clearly state that I was talking about the Bonus Token and I am sorry that you missed that.

Sincerely,

Marcus

(for some reason, this part was cut off)

A simple, non-condescending answer to an honest question would be more appropriate.

Regarding the battery, I clearly state that I was referring to the Bonus Token and I am sorry that you missed that

Marcus

Marcus said:

I did give you an "non-condescending" answer"

Though you may interpret things differently just like the rules as I stated over and over.

^ Now that is condescending.

See the difference?

Not harsh I just don't like false accusations against me.

"not that hard" and "black and white" are condescending terms in any context. I accept your apology regarding the battery.

Don't take it too hard, when you get older, you'll understand.

Now that's condescending!

If not that hard and black and white are condescending you have had a pretty sugar coated easy life.

I accept your apology regarding the battery.

Don't take it too hard, when you get older, you'll understand.

Now that's condescending!

I never apologized, I just said you were right, admiting and apologizing are not the same, there for I understand, you have the understanding to do.

And I do not need an apology.

You are absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking when I dared to respond to the great Sundance Kid. Clearly none of us has your brilliance, intelligence, gaming skills, life experience and general all-around greatness. It must be so hard to maintain this persona. My life is sugar-coated in comparison.

Seriously, I do appreciate your contributions to this forum and anything I say should be taken in the spirit of gaming camaraderie.

Happy Holidays

Marcus

Marcus said: You are absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking when I dared to respond to the great Sundance Kid. Clearly none of us has your brilliance, intelligence, gaming skills, life experience and general all-around greatness. It must be so hard to maintain this persona. My life is sugar-coated in comparison.

I liked your other posts better. This is just sad.

Happy Hollidays to you to...

I really am sorry that this makes you sad. Clearly, I was poking fun at your responses to me and your characterization of my life. I said that I appreciated your contributions and I thought that I made it clear that my postings were in the spirit of "gaming camaraderie".

Please forgive me for hurting your feelings. That is the last thing that I would want to do!

With all seriousness,

Marcus

Marcus said:

Umm I was joking???? And I never said I sad, I said that was sad... that post basically telling me I am the greatest thing ever was sad. Again there is a difference there.

I don't think you will get along with me and Mal very well (this is a joke too)

You hurt my feelings? never.

But I do welcome you to my forum

http://tannbunker.myfastforum.org/

Thanks Sundance.

I feel better now. My feelings are no longer hurt!

By the way, I understood completely everything you meant in each of your postings. I was not confused, I was simply interpreting them the way I wanted for dramatic effect.

As you know, this all started with my wanting to swap out Barry's Special Object no matter what the rules implied. Unfortunately, I will have to fiqure out another way. I still have problems defending against Ozo and Doom.

I think your new site is fantastic and I look forward to its growth. You are a scholar and a gentleman!

Marcus

Marcus said:

Can be troublesome with the stoss being near him, not a big fan of the union but have played with them quite a bit, to kill Karl you may need to sacrafice a troop to do so, or if he is hiding behind a door grenades are very helpful (if someone drops one run for IT!)

Smoke screen I have to find useful agains Marquis or Karl :/ errrrr

I've played around 20 times and always with the Union. Lost most of them. I think that Ozo, with his ability to shoot around corners, is so much more powerful than any other character. I find myself reacting too much to Ozo and become paralyzed. The times that I have won, I tried not to let Ozo dictate my actions. I've recently started to use Barry with a flash-gun ( given by a commando) and the Bonus Token battery (kill on 9 or 10) along with the vest and his superstrength makes him a great character. I hate the flash machine gun because of it's range - very difficult to find places where he can use its range.

Smoke granades are great but, often, my opponent can simply go around them.

I've seen the Union strategy guide and have paid attention to various posts but most of the advice is vague and often it's simply telling me to "use tactics" without specifics.

I understand that the Union is faring better than the Reich in Europe but I still have some confusion as to why this is.

Marcus

So... now that the dust has settled and the smoke has cleared ;-) it appears that when I clarified my original question...

<< Do you select a Pack (into which you can then swap Bonus Tokens) and THEN take the Special Object OR do you select a Pack and the Special Object and THEN swap in Bonus Tokens? >>

The answer is the former... You select a Pack (Combat, Stamina, or Mental) and THEN you can swap Bonus Tokens into that Pack and THEN you take the Special Object (i.e. the Token cannot be swapped for a Special Object as the "swapping phase" only applied to the Pack and is now over).

Re: Marcus's comment that:

<< I've played around 20 times and always with the Union. Lost most of them. ... I've seen the Union strategy guide and have paid attention to various posts but most of the advice is vague and often it's simply telling me to "use tactics" without specifics. >>

I can only offer the suggestions that I made on the "Balance" thread, from the point of view of a predominantly-Reich player:

<< * If you look at the French site and follow the tournaments there, you'll see that the Union definitely has the edge over the Reich in the long run, winning almost every month. So don't despair.

* The Union player tends to obsess on Karl / OZO and his Doompistol and run scared. Remember, unlike every other weapon in Tannhauser, the Doompistol has limited range. In a long hallway or open space, OZO's toast. Also, remember that he only gets one attack per turn. If a few characters gang up on him, one may die, but the others will take him out.

* The Union characters can drop, pick up, and swap items right and left to optimise performance for particular tasks. Most of the tokens for the Reich characters can't be dropped, which means: a) their less versatile, and b) they don't have empty spaces that allow them to pick stuff up. I've often been in the situation where I've killed MacNeal, but don't have anyone who can pick up his cool handgun or Nighteyes. I end up having to waste a character just guarding the items to keep the Union player from retrieving them.

* The versatility of the Union characters compared with those of the Reich emphasizes what Littlewars already said here -- the Union works best as a team, while the Reich characters are loners.

* Smoke REALLY sucks! But Union players often don't use it effectively. If the smoke grenades are used too early in the game, they just become a change in the map and the Reich player can work around them. In my opinion, the best uses of smoke grenades are: 1) in a 1-2 punch where one Union character drops a grenade that envelops a Reich character who has already moved that turn, and then a second Union character moves in to kill the disabled Reich character, and 2) to smoke the areas around the Reich player's objectives and have someone with Nighteyes hang back, forcing the Reich to move into the smoke (and the Union characters's kill-zone) in order to complete the objective.

* Keep careful track of those new tokens that come out every month, especially at the French website. You can swap them in for tokens in your characters' Packs. At first glance, some of the tokens may not seem that powerful or useful, but how many times have you taken a Pack in order to get a character's special item, only to be stuck with a token that doesn't really do anything for you? Swap it out for one of those monthly or tournament tokens from the FFG or French site.

And, on a general note for both sides, NEVER leave two or more of your characters standing with one empty space between them. That's just begging for a grenade! >>

Thanks, everyone, for your lively input and for this clarification. I suspect that somethings might be much clearer in the French rules, but become vague in the transition to English. French is a Romance language and these tend to have much more specific relative pronouns than does English.

Thanks again,

Don