On the Scum topic, it really doesn’t make sense in Legion? There are a couple of groups that might be considered to have armies, but they pale in comparison to the current factions, and getting any combination of smaller groups to work together would take a lot.
So if they did anything I guess it’d pretty much have to be Maul’s syndicate? But I don’t see that happening for Legion, personally.
22 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:On the Scum topic, it really doesn’t make sense in Legion?
Legion uses like 40 figures. A local crime boss, a rogue Moff, virtually anyone can muster 40 combatants. To say nothing of the Empire hiring a few extra hands because it's deemed cost effective, or the rebellion getting help from seedy sources.
7 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:Legion uses like 40 figures. A local crime boss, a rogue Moff, virtually anyone can muster 40 combatants. To say nothing of the Empire hiring a few extra hands because it's deemed cost effective, or the rebellion getting help from seedy sources.
Hondo Ohnaka's merry band of pirates from Clone Wars come to mind.
And they have speeder tanks to...
Edited by riker2800
Hm. Maybe? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it still doesn’t fit the theme very well...
I’d personally think it would work best to have semi-neutral expansions; some of which are locked to certain factions, some of which are open to anyone (Like Hondo.)
While entertaining, I think the idea of faction neutral, or even scum factions deserves its own thread.
As this is a thread devoted to those that want First Order for Legion, I'd thought I'd post another thought about how to differentiate the first order (and resistance).
First lets look at how the Empire, Republic, and First Order get their basic troops.
The empire recruits their stormtroopers. This means that they had a childhood, developed the most of their personality then, before coming to become stormtroopers. While training can desensitize them to varying factors, they are not trained from birth and thus are not as adept. The stormtroopers ARE apparently on the receiving end of some good target training, but handed sub-par weaponry.
The clonetroopers are grown and trained from “birth”. They have good gear and exceptional training. They also have an organic chip in their head that has orders that are unknown until activated (order 66). Before order 66 and during training, the clones developed personalities, and often the Jedi generals encouraged them to be individuals. While effective, they were also very expensive. Clones, while effectively slave soldiers to the republic, still had a number of personal freedoms (at least in their limited downtime) and allowed to express themselves often on their armour.
The First Order steals, indoctrinates, and trains children almost from birth. They are extremely regulated as to what they are exposed to. They can only watch first order approved vids, and broadcasts. They also are not given much time to socialize. During meal time they have just enough time to eat, if they don't finish their meal they go without. This is a fully fascist and indoctrinated military, and those that don't excel physically are often disposed of. They also have mental conditioning in such that if they exhibit any eccentricities they have their brain scrubbed to remove these traits.
Now gamewise, we see (and hypothetically will see for first order stormtroopers) how the a above traits can be ascribed to the faction. Imperial stormtroopers are the baseline, they came first game wise and media release wise. They have precise, they are good shots, further espoused by the surge to hit, but have inferior gear.
Clone troopers have better gear, and their abilities espouse how they work as a cohesive army.
So what about the first order? Well, they have the lifelong training of the clones, they are also brainwashed for loyalty and lack much individualism. Well, to differ the faction, and show the fanaticism, I think we could look to the Rebel veterans and shoretroopers. We could very well get a baseline, or initial, troop that has a training slot.
Now the downside to this is the lack of an “veteran” unit release later. It also makes the starter unit more complicated. It would however emphasize the better tech and training the first order gave its troops.
With upgrades of training, grenade, gear personnel and heavy; a red defense, black melee and black ranged (1-3) you can get a very tough unit. Now, add in a keyword like indomitable, you get a highly trained fanatic troop which suits the first order well. It also gives them a very expensive unit.
So lets do some modifying. Lets remove the training slot, and indomitable. Lets make a new keyword, call it fanatcism, or better yet, indoctrinated. This new keyword should allow the first order stormtrooper to spend an action to gain the benefit/use an operative or commanders training upgrade at range 1-2. Further refining, lower the range and reword it to be that the first order stormtrooper can treat any training upgrade on a friendly unit as if they had it equipped.
This would encourage a number of frontline commanders in the thick of things and an unit that operates by following how you build the commander. By themselves, or out of range of a commander they have no real benefit other than the basic stats.
But with a commander nearby, they could be a beast. But take out that commander, and they fall apart. This design idea hits the Sweet spot for thematic and gaming criteria.
Conversely, for the Resistance, I would consider giving the basic troop a training upgrade natively, increased morale, BUT, the basic squad size of, maybe 3 even as low as 2! This is all due to the resistance troopers being hand picked to join, either by Leia or one of her commanders. The resistance should be the best and most capable, but fewer in number.
This makes both the first order and resistance heavily dependant on training, but again, fits the theme. It adds in differences to rebels and empire, but fits how we have seen and read how the factions work thematically.
14 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:While entertaining, I think the idea of faction neutral, or even scum factions deserves its own thread.
As this is a thread devoted to those that want First Order for Legion, I'd thought I'd post another thought about how to differentiate the first order (and resistance).
First lets look at how the Empire, Republic, and First Order get their basic troops.
The empire recruits their stormtroopers. This means that they had a childhood, developed the most of their personality then, before coming to become stormtroopers. While training can desensitize them to varying factors, they are not trained from birth and thus are not as adept. The stormtroopers ARE apparently on the receiving end of some good target training, but handed sub-par weaponry.
The clonetroopers are grown and trained from “birth”. They have good gear and exceptional training. They also have an organic chip in their head that has orders that are unknown until activated (order 66). Before order 66 and during training, the clones developed personalities, and often the Jedi generals encouraged them to be individuals. While effective, they were also very expensive. Clones, while effectively slave soldiers to the republic, still had a number of personal freedoms (at least in their limited downtime) and allowed to express themselves often on their armour.
The First Order steals, indoctrinates, and trains children almost from birth. They are extremely regulated as to what they are exposed to. They can only watch first order approved vids, and broadcasts. They also are not given much time to socialize. During meal time they have just enough time to eat, if they don't finish their meal they go without. This is a fully fascist and indoctrinated military, and those that don't excel physically are often disposed of. They also have mental conditioning in such that if they exhibit any eccentricities they have their brain scrubbed to remove these traits.
Now gamewise, we see (and hypothetically will see for first order stormtroopers) how the a above traits can be ascribed to the faction. Imperial stormtroopers are the baseline, they came first game wise and media release wise. They have precise, they are good shots, further espoused by the surge to hit, but have inferior gear.
Clone troopers have better gear, and their abilities espouse how they work as a cohesive army.
So what about the first order? Well, they have the lifelong training of the clones, they are also brainwashed for loyalty and lack much individualism. Well, to differ the faction, and show the fanaticism, I think we could look to the Rebel veterans and shoretroopers. We could very well get a baseline, or initial, troop that has a training slot.
Now the downside to this is the lack of an “veteran” unit release later. It also makes the starter unit more complicated. It would however emphasize the better tech and training the first order gave its troops.
With upgrades of training, grenade, gear personnel and heavy; a red defense, black melee and black ranged (1-3) you can get a very tough unit. Now, add in a keyword like indomitable, you get a highly trained fanatic troop which suits the first order well. It also gives them a very expensive unit.
So lets do some modifying. Lets remove the training slot, and indomitable. Lets make a new keyword, call it fanatcism, or better yet, indoctrinated. This new keyword should allow the first order stormtrooper to spend an action to gain the benefit/use an operative or commanders training upgrade at range 1-2. Further refining, lower the range and reword it to be that the first order stormtrooper can treat any training upgrade on a friendly unit as if they had it equipped .
This would encourage a number of frontline commanders in the thick of things and an unit that operates by following how you build the commander. By themselves, or out of range of a commander they have no real benefit other than the basic stats.
But with a commander nearby, they could be a beast. But take out that commander, and they fall apart. This design idea hits the Sweet spot for thematic and gaming criteria.
Conversely, for the Resistance, I would consider giving the basic troop a training upgrade natively, increased morale, BUT, the basic squad size of, maybe 3 even as low as 2! This is all due to the resistance troopers being hand picked to join, either by Leia or one of her commanders. The resistance should be the best and most capable, but fewer in number.
This makes both the first order and resistance heavily dependant on training, but again, fits the theme. It adds in differences to rebels and empire, but fits how we have seen and read how the factions work thematically.
I'll start with what I like from what you said. I dig the idea of having first order get the benefit of their leader's training. Your idea of having an aggressive and more fearless force would be able to be represented with indomitable, but stay with courage 1. Their weapons are shown to be more powerful, but I haven't seen the accuracy over Stormtroopers. I'd give white with surge to crit over a black in order to help cement the aggressive playstyle you're after.
I had a little trouble following this, but they shouldn't have the training upgrade. Application of what is represented by training upgrades is only something that gets honed through combat and time. The first order troopers don't have much of either under their belt. I also don't want to see a basic faction unit equal or more costly than clones, who have already been described as elite. Having more than one faction with the same gimmick takes away the uniqueness that I would rather keep. For what I described, I'd say 48 points is fair. Better than Stormtroopers, but worse than Clones.
I like where you're going with the smaller unit sizes for the resistance. Give them black with surge like commandos, precise and maybe range 4, but keep the bad rebel defense. Have them strike hard at longer range, but they'd be the most frail of all corp.
19 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:I'll start with what I like from what you said. I dig the idea of having first order get the benefit o f their leader's training. Your idea of having an aggressive and more fearless force would be able to be represented with indomitable, but stay with courage 1. Their weapons are shown to be more powerful, but I haven't seen the accu racy over Stormtroopers. I'd give white with surge to crit over a black in order to h elp cement the aggressive playstyle you're after.
The white die and surge to crit would be comparable to a black with no surge cost wise, I suppose. A fair trade.
22 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:I had a little trouble following this, but they shouldn't have the training upgrade. Application of what is represented by training upgrades is only something that gets honed through combat and time. The first order troopers don't have much of either under their belt. I also don't want to see a basic faction unit equal or more costly than clones, who have already been described as elite. Having more than one faction with the same gi mmick takes away the uniqueness that I would rather keep. For what I described, I'd say 48 points is fair. Better than Stormtroopers , but worse than Clones.
Prior to my post I had an idea, but upon typing it all out and came up with the following addendums, as it were. I agree that the basic trooper probably doesn't need it, with the possibility of the Red Fury elite troopers from the park and possible movie, it makes sense not to have it.
as to the training, the clones had the same amount or maybe even less due to accelerated growth and not as much time, existence wise (in universe). But to diversify, and differentiate, I agree white with surge would work.
For the overall game it makes sense to keep all three similar troops to be different.
30 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:I like where you're going with the smaller unit sizes for the resistance. Give them black with surge like commandos, precise and maybe range 4, but keep the bad rebel defense. Have them strike hard at longer range, but they'd b e the m ost frail of all c or p.
I was tempted to give the resistance indomitable instead, to represent the beleaguered but loyal to Leia, yet still plucky and brave troops. It makes them, stronger than clones, except in defence, I agree, but the smaller size offsets it. Perhaps a higher courage overall would work? 2 for a basic, but smaller unit could be fun.
@That Blasted Samophlange To reference your earlier threats, I can offer a bit of lore on the first order and resistance forces.
The stormtroopers are trained and operate in teams of 4, each including their own leader, according to before the awakening, which fits Legion pretty well. In contrast to their imperial predecessors l, these guys training is centralized and standardized producing consistent results. Yet despite being heavily indoctrinated they are not only trained for discipline (like the imps) but also individual initiative and guerilla warfare, mainly due to the FOs lower manpower. Their individual strengths are attributed to and properly supported in the process producing much more specialized and capable troopers. This specifically includes extensive training withe a wide array of melee weapons (force pikes and maces, shields, electro staves...), which might justify giving them a better melee attack and is shown by Finn in TFA.
The Force Awakens visual dictionary (or is it the cross sections on the transports page?) however states that they are deployed in squads of 10 including one attached specialized trooper. These are pulled from their own specialist squads and can also be deployed as such irc. The examples of those we know of are Flametroopers, Megablaster Troopers, Riot Control Stormtroopers (The guy from TFA, that's why he had the baton with him @TauntaunScout . It's part of his specialist classes kit.) and technically executioners I guess. Combining both sources I'd assume a squad is composed of two teams, the specialist and a separate squad leader. Translating that onto the tabletop this could mean a squad is represented by two units. Instead of the additional trooper the unit is then packaged with a squad leader (sergeant?) personnel/heavy weapon upgrade. This guy should then offer synergy with another unit of the same type, offering the ideal basis for the fanatical/indoctrinated keyword you guys proposed. Alternatively she/he could have something like Coordinate: First Order Stormtroopers altered to prevent chaining, rewarding taking those units in pairs. I get a real WWII leader and MG section/team vibe from that. This could even be made a recurring thing for all the first orders corps units.
Finally regarding @That Blasted Samophlange s remarks about double duty in the resistance: That's what they do with almost everyone EXCEPT the pilots. The TFA Visual Dictionary (again) states, that all the ground personal also has to serve as infantry due to the resistances small size. Idk if someone could come up with a game mechanic out of that.
17 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:I was tempted to give the resistance indomitable instead, to represent the beleaguered but loyal to Leia, yet still plucky and brave troops. It makes them, stronger than clones, except in defence, I agree, but the smaller size offsets it. Perhaps a higher courage overall would work? 2 for a basic, but smaller unit could be fun.
Either courage 2 or indomitable, but not both as that's way too much for a corp unit to have. It basically guarantees that you can't route at that point. The real trick to getting the smaller size right is to make sure you don't feel gimped for using them.
1 hour ago, LennoxPoodle said:The stormtroopers are trained and operate in teams of 4, each including their own leader, according to before the awakening, which fits Legion pretty well. In contrast to their imperial predecessors l, these guys training is centralized and standardized producing consistent results. Yet despite being heavily indoctrinated they are not only trained for discipline (like the imps) but also individual initiative and guerilla warfare, mainly due to the FOs lower manpower. Their individual strengths are attributed to and properly supported in the process producing much more specialized and capable troopers. This specifically includes extensive training withe a wide array of melee weapons (force pikes and maces, shields, electro staves...), which might justify giving them a better melee attack and is shown by Finn in TFA.
Thanks! I don't have copies of those books currently, but any extra info helps
I currently think that for the First Order, the squad size would stay 4, with the personnel and heavy upgrades. This allows for generic officers (like Gideon Hask), a comm officer, as well as the heavies being the Mega blaster and the riot trooper.
I think improving the melee is unnecessary for the basic trooper, but the baton wielder will definitely have a better attack, as well as I think suppressive - that baton packs a whollop!
To be honest I think I would keep the synergy of the Commander/operative as it provides a unique mechanic for them. I think it still fits with my original post and what you say, they are trained and with a proper commander they will excel at the mission. Along this line, The tenacity upgrade should also cover the increased melee training.
I really want Troops around Phasma to play differently from say Pyre and other commanders/operatives.
2 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:The Force Awakens visual dictionary (or is it the cros s sections on the transports page?) however states that they are deployed in squads of 10 including one attached specialized trooper. These are pulled from their own specialist squads and can also be deployed as such irc. The exam ples of those we know of are Flametroopers, Megablaster Troopers, Riot Control Stormtroopers (The guy from TFA, that's why he had the baton with him @TauntaunScout . It's part of his specialist classes kit.) and technically executioners I guess. Combining both sources I'd assume a squad is composed of two teams, the specialist and a separate squad leader. Translating that onto th e tabletop this could mean a squad is represented by two units. Instead of the additional trooper the unit is then packaged with a squad leader (sergeant?) personnel/heavy weapon upgrade. This guy should then offer synergy with another unit of the same type, offering the ideal basis for the fanatical/indoctrinated keyword you guys proposed. Alternatively she/he could have something like Coordinate: First Order Stormtroopers altered to prevent cha ining, rewarding taking those units in pairs. I get a real WWII leader and MG section/tea m vibe from that. This could even be made a recurring thing for all the first orders corps units.
As much as I would love to make them have an upgrades sergeant, I don't think that is viable game wise. Not to mention it really is something that should be held for the commanders.
The squad of 10 has to be disregarded, mainly due to game factors.
As to the heavy upgrades, I think the default as mentioned above should be the megablaster and riot. The flame trooper is an interesting thing. I see it as a good generic heavy for a corps unit. They have their own style of armour, and can be seen working with snow and regular stormtroopers.
The executioners.. well, honestly, I see them as a special forces in the games force org. chart. The alternative is a to make them another generic upgrade that increases morale through fear. Perhaps as a reverse medic? Execute a trooper and give a bonus to the squad? Though that kind of mechanic could work for a special forces squad as well.
2 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:Finally regarding @That Blasted Samophlange s remarks about double duty in the resistance: That's what they do with almost everyone EXCEPT the pilots. The TFA Visual Dictionary (again ) states, that all the ground personal also has to serve as infantry due to the resistances small size. Idk if someone could come up with a game mechanic out of t hat.
I'm also factoring in the Pilots of black squadron have done lots of extra vehicular activities in the comics. I think losing a squad member and gaining a training slot, as well as a morale of 2 (those plucky heroes) makes the unit fairly tough. Dodge and duck and cover can help keep you alive.
I don't know if we can get a mechanic to represent that, except maybe for some unique hero personnel upgrades. Rose Tico, Kaydel Ko Connix, Taslin Brance, etc. This could, again, be an interesting way to make the Resistance, who are short on people, have unique play style. A bunch of minor heroes as upgrades builds them up, especially for the basic corps units. Done in much the way that Pao and Bistan for the pathfinders work.
This allows a smaller troop size, and offers a different expansion to the generic specialists - a minor heroes of the resistance pack, that has several minor heroes - now this, of course will have to be tempered by what Episode IX shows for the characters.
@LennoxPoodle , thanks for the input. Every little bit helps. The goal is to show how a first order and resistance will add to the game.
The idea of the resistance being tougher, but smaller squad has me excited actually. It would be a good counter point, not only to the standard squad size and toughness, but to the battledroids. The resistance grunt unit is half the size of the b1 battledroid squad.
21 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:As much as I would love to make them have an upgrades sergeant, I don't think that is viable game wise. Not to mention it really is something that should be held for the commanders.
😞 I really like my idea (shameless self compliment) of fielding their unit in pairs to work (better) in tandem. It's kind of a risk and reward thing, having them be more than the sum of their parts but needing to maintain the pair to be effective/efficient. The sergeant unit gets an order and can pull another unit with a specialist along.
1 hour ago, thepopemobile100 said:Either courage 2 or indomitable, but not both as that's way too much for a corp unit to have. It basically guarantees that you can't route at that point. The real trick to getting the smaller size right is to make sure you don't feel gimped for using them.
I will probably stick to the higher courage value. It alone will make them a tougher unit to crack, eapecially if they have the training upgrade.
With a smaller group, which thematically fits the resistance perfectly, you have to be really smart. The rebels play similar, true, but the rebellion was much larger. Also thematically, as a player, sending your troops to accomplish a mission and be slaughtered echoes Poe’s attack run on the dreadnought and the aftermath. Lots of heroes, but no leaders.
I think the smaller squad size of 3, black attack (ranged and melee), surge to hit and defend, higher courage, Makes for a different play style. I may five them either teamwork or steady as a keyword.
You’ll have to play very smart, to not lose your precious units (fewer in number).
3 minutes ago, LennoxPoodle said:😞 I really like my idea (shameless self compliment) of fielding their unit in pairs to work (better) in tandem. It's kind of a risk and reward thing, having them be more than the sum of their parts but needing to maintain the pair to be effective/efficient. The sergeant unit gets an order and can pull another unit with a specialist along.
I do think it has a lot of potential, but I don't know how well it works for the basic stormtrooper.
However, remember there are things like the First Order Snowtrooper that needs to be created as well. Perhaps a slower moving unit that does what you suggest above would work?
49 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:I do think it has a lot of potential, but I don't know how well it works for the basic stormtrooper.
However, remember there are things like the First Order Snowtrooper that needs to be created as well. Perhaps a slower moving unit that does what you suggest above would work?
Sure, that is a pretty good way to do it, although I intended it for the whole of the first orders corps, factoring into faction identity.
Everyone keeps saying that First Order stormtroopers are superior to Imperial stormtroopers I disagree they have better technology yes but nothing I have seen on screen shows them being better if anything they are worse.
Remember our first introduction to Imperial stormtroopers is they murder walked through trained Marines that had control over a choke point absolutely one of the worst situations infantry can deal with. On the other hand the First Order stormtroopers attack a poorly equipped milita basically in the open. The First Order seems to merely be a force of bullys with shiny toys that relies less on using them and more on how scary they look.
1 hour ago, chr335 said:Everyone keeps saying that First Order stormtroopers are superior to Imperial stormtroopers I disagree they have better technology yes but nothing I have seen on screen shows them being better if anything they are worse.
Remember our first introduction to Imperial stormtroopers is they murder walked through trained Marines that had control over a choke point absolutely one of the worst situations infantry can deal with. On the other hand the First Order stormtroopers attack a poorly equipped milita basically in the open. The First Order seems to merely be a force of bullys with shiny toys that relies less on using them and more on how scary they look.
This right here. The best BLANKtroopers are clonetroopers then stormtroopers then FO stormtroopers
18 minutes ago, Jabby said:This right here. The best BLANKtroopers are clonetroopers then stormtroopers then FO stormtroopers
That would be a neat way to differentiate them from the empire. Focus on the fact that they are only trained in simulations ( a big part of General Hux's philosophy) and so less effective combatants (no surge to hit) but they are fanatically loyal (maybe immune to panic while a commander is in line of sight?)
42 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:That would be a neat way to differentiate them from the empire. Focus on the fact that they are only trained in simulations ( a big part of General Hux's philosophy) and so less effective combatants (no surge to hit) but they are fanatically loyal (maybe immune to panic while a commander is in line of sight?)
Two white dice with no surge to show the better tech while showing their inefficiency
2 hours ago, chr335 said:Everyone keeps saying that First Order stormtroopers are superior to Imperial stormtroopers I disagree they have better technology yes but nothing I have seen on screen shows them being better if anything they are worse.
Remember our first introduction to Imperial stormtroopers is they murder walked through trained Marines that had control over a choke point absolutely one of the worst situations infantry can deal with. On the other hand the First Order stormtroopers attack a poorly equipped milita basically in the open. The First Order seems to merely be a force of bullys with shiny toys that relies less on using them and more on how scary they look.
The thing here is a clear case of tell don't show. Canon material states they are better, which makes that canon.
What do you think the commanders would be like? I’m picturing Phasma as a pretty obvious elite trooper with red defense and a solid ranged attack. Hux probably has a white defense and some support abilities.
Kylo Ren is the tricky one. Part of me feels like he deserves a red defense since he took a bow caster to the abdomen like a boss, part of me thinks white defense because he wears robes but with some sort of re rolls or boost to be better than normal white dice. I imagine he’d also be able to stop a ranged attack somehow like in TFA. I’m thinking mostly black die for attacks, maybe 2 red because that saber is crazy. I’d like to see him in the same point range as Luke. Model wise I’d like to see him come with helmeted or nonhelmeted options.
4 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:The thing here is a clear case of tell don't show. Canon material states they are better, which makes that canon.
Does the canon material say they are better or do nember of the First Order claim they are better?
1 hour ago, Spideyfan629 said:What do you think the commanders would be like? I’m picturing Phasma as a pretty obvious elite trooper with red defense and a solid ranged attack. Hux probably has a white defense and some support abilities.
Kylo Ren is the tricky one. Part of me feels like he deserves a red defense since he took a bow caster to the abdomen like a boss, part of me thinks white defense because he wears robes but with some sort of re rolls or boost to be better than normal white dice. I imagine he’d also be able to stop a ranged attack somehow like in TFA. I’m thinking mostly black die for attacks, maybe 2 red because that saber is crazy. I’d like to see him in the same point range as Luke. Model wise I’d like to see him come with helmeted or nonhelmeted options.
Phasma should be all about making sure she survives no matter what. She really should sacrifice others to avoid damage. She is not a First Order zealot, she cares about herself first.
Hux would all be about impassioned speeches, and thus boosting morale. I could see him having an command card that removes suppression (through fervour) from all first order troopers.
Kylo Ren should definitely be a red defense. I mean if Luke in his khakis can have a red defense, so can Kylo. He should have enrage - takes damage, becomes stronger.
8 hours ago, chr335 said:Does the canon material say they are better or do nember of the First Order claim they are better?
The TFA Visual Dictionary, written from an out of universe perspective, says so.