Can a saboteur throw a charge up onto a height 2+ building if the charge is placed at the edge of the building to ensure there is LOS?

Our reaction to this was no, height 2 building is clearly outside of range 1 that the charge must be deployed within, however, p49 (v1.3) of the rules reference under range states:

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Range is always measured horizontal to the battlefield, on a two-dimensional plain. If two minis are on different elevations, to measure range, the player should hold the range ruler above both minis, level with the battlefield, and look down from above to determine range.

That would suggest as long as a building is within range 1 of your saboteur you can throw a charge up onto it as long as it's placed at the edge of the building so you still have LOS to the charge.

Now to me this seems a little odd, even more so if you have height 3 buildings. The only way to avoid this would be if the interpretation of LOS was to the spot you are placing it, as you could not see onto the roof from a lower position, however, to me it reads like you just need LOS to the charge once placed? p13.

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A unit that is equipped with a card that has the arm x: charge type keyword can perform the arm x action. To perform this action, the unit places x charge tokens of the specified type within range 1 and in line of sight of its unit leader.

Charge tokens cannot overlap any objective, condition, or other charge tokens, and must be placed on a flat surface, completely flush with that surface.

Is there a rule we've missed or is height ignored for placing charges as long as they're horizontally within range 1 and you can see a part of the charge after placing it?

you kinda correct as LOS is determine from the mini yes if they could see on top of a building they yeah they can toss a bomb there. but to see up to a height 2 building and be on the ground would be impossible. so yes you can toss a bomb higher but only if from the minis LOS can see that spot on the ground to toss it.

Horizontal measurement is weird, but them's the rules.

I agree and that will be how we play it.

That said, as written I could see someone placing a counter on a building that is right up against the edge of the building (but not overhanging) and claiming they have LOS to the mine. You can only see a tiny sliver of the edge of the counter but if you can see any part of a model it counts as having LOS so it would be hard to argue against that?

Is there anything else in the rules that makes it clearer it's LOS to the location you place the mine, not to the counter itself after placing?

32 minutes ago, DwainDibbly said:

I agree and that will be how we play it.

That said, as written I could see someone placing a counter on a building that is right up against the edge of the building (but not overhanging) and claiming they have LOS to the mine. You can only see a tiny sliver of the edge of the counter but if you can see any part of a model it counts as having LOS so it would be hard to argue against that?

Is there anything else in the rules that makes it clearer it's LOS to the location you place the mine, not to the counter itself after placing?

from the RRG under arm x page 13, To perform this action, the unit places x charge tokens of the specified type within range 1 and in line of sight of its unit leader
Charge tokens cannot overlap any objective, condition, or other charge tokens, and must be placed on a flat surface, completely flush with that surface

Yes I've read that part of the rule, it reads (to me anyway) that the charge token must be placed within LOS of the unit leader. Which the edge of a building would count as.

We did in a previous game place a charge token on the edge of a building, flat and flush with it. You could then see the edge of the charge token from the unit leaders position thus having LOS.

I guess what I'm getting at is, that line can be read in two ways. Having LOS to the charge token, which implies LOS after placing it. Or, having LOS to the location before placing the charge token, which you would not have for a building roof that's above you.

I believe, as it seems you both do, that it's the latter interpretation that is correct, but the wording seems to allow for both.

Seems pretty clear to me that it's the second interpretation:

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To perform this action, the unit places x charge tokens [...] in line of sight of its unit leader.

Place the token in line of sight. And you have LOS to something as long as you can see any part of it. So as long as a building doesn't have a parapet, you should be able to toss a charge up there. I haven't checked exactly, but the leader might have to be back from the building an inch or something to make sure he can see the token up there (but then again, since his head is off the building slightly, maybe not).

1 hour ago, DwainDibbly said:

Yes I've read that part of the rule, it reads (to me anyway) that the charge token must be placed within LOS of the unit leader. Which the edge of a building would count as.

We did in a previous game place a charge token on the edge of a building, flat and flush with it. You could then see the edge of the charge token from the unit leaders position thus having LOS.

I guess what I'm getting at is, that line can be read in two ways. Having LOS to the charge token, whic  h implies LOS after placing it. Or, having LOS to the location before placing the charge token, which you would not have for a building roof that's above you.

I believe, as it seems you both do, that it's the latter interpretation that is correct, but the wording seems to allow for both.

you basicly have to be able to see the spot in order to toss it up there it not LOS to the charge token but to the spot you wish to toss it, you can't do the ability and then say yeah i can it, its can i see where i'm placing it (just like range attacks or abilities) if so then i can do it. think of it like a attack on the ground can you see the spot your wanting it to go to yes then go for it if not then back up and try again. also it doesn't have to be the center spot of the bomb you can see where the limit of the bomb can be placed ie the edge and put it there that is still a legal move . not sure if that is clear enough explanation.

3 minutes ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

not sure if that is clear enough explanation.

The explanation is clear yes and that is also how I'd interpret the rule.

However the wording does appear to leave room to read it as only needing line of sight to the charge token and that would only make sense if it's once the token is placed. i.e place token and check if you have LOS to it, if so it's a valid placement, if not, you cannot place it there.

As nashjeaee pasted:

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To perform this action, the unit places x charge tokens [...] in line of sight of its unit leader.

If were getting "lawyer-ish" I can see an argument where the saboteur will almost always have line of site to the 90 degree top edge of the building they are targeting. The player throwing the charge up there can claim he/she is aiming at that exact monomolecular edge and that he/she intends to place the charge flush with the edge. Since the declared aimpoint is infinitesimaly small, it has no real value in the z axis making the targeted area two or even one dimensional depending on how technical we want to get. After arguing this point I feel dirty, I'm going to need a shower.

😟 🚿

They need to switch the RRG so that you use the height of a terrain peice if it is greater in height than the horizontal distance. Right now RAW you can flamer someone at the top of a height 3 tower while standing on the ground next to said tower.

9 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

They need to switch the RRG so that you use the height of a terrain peice if it is greater in height than the horizontal distance. Right now RAW you can flamer someone at the top of a height 3 tower while standing on the ground next to said tower.

Hadn't considered that. It's probably more likely to occur in regular play than my original question too.

Perhaps the rules should say that range is measured horizontally however if the height difference between your unit and the target is greater than your weapon range, the target is considered out of range, regardless of whether it's horizontally within or at range?

That would avoid needing to do 3d range measurements, avoids the situation of a trooper unit on top of a height 2 or 3 building been shot by a range 1 weapon and not really be any more complex to determine than what we have now now.