I was working for some time on some rules concerning traps.

They are in a bit chaotic state right now.

I wanted to have traps in a state I could put on a card (working on backgrounds right now), and some interesting mechanic, that would be more than just "roll -> you disabled the trap", and allow both me, and the players to build and set the traps.

I present to you all I have invented on the matter to this day (didn't have the time to clean it up, so its a wall of text that can be hard to understand at some points).

It surely can be upgraded/simplified, so, share your opinions before I start to make an SE plugin with it (I'm too lazy to change it after that).

First part is about what I would like to see on a trap card, next is a bit about how it works, almost at the end are new action cards designed to work with traps, and at the same end are some ideas about lockpicking.

Read along, and I go and get some sleep .

EDIT:

Here is pdf with rules rewritten and cleaned up (don't bother with those below, your eyes will hurt): www.gmtools.excelocms.com/houserules/Traps.pdf

- - - - - - - - - -

TRAP CARD

- - - - - - - - - -

Name (text):
Name of a trap

Type (symbol / text ?):
1. Mechanical - trap is build in an old fashion way using mechanical parts, and knowledge
2. Magical - trap is weaved with magic, and contains no mechanical parts
3. Hybrid - trap construction includes mechanical parts and magical spells

Spot (number 1-5) / Base Spot (1-6 eye symbols) - determined by the set trap test (see cards at the end), higher is better
Determines how good the trap is hidden, how hard is to find the switch, or guess the riddle to turn the trap off.
Skill used for this task depends on a trap Type.
Spot is used, when you just need to use the trap as a GM, Base Spot is used when players set the trap (modified by roll results).

Complexity (number 1-5) / Base Complexity (1-6 gearwheel symbols) - determined by the build trap tests, higher is better
Determines the trap complexity and quality, and how hard it is to disarm.
Complexity is used, when you just need to use the trap as a GM, Base Complexity is used when players set the trap (modified by roll results).

Sensitivity (number 1-6) / Base Sensitivity (1-6 what symbol?) - determined by the build trap tests, lower is better
Amount of chaos stars that needs to be accumulated during the disarming period, to trigger the trap.
Tension meter to count the amount of chaos stars rolled. When tension meter gets to an end, trap is triggered (even if you already disarmed 90% of it, you shouldn't poke that wire!).
Sensitivity is used, when you just need to use the trap as a GM, Base Sensitivity is used when players set the trap (modified by roll results).

Disabling (text) – IMPORTANT: this is NOT disarming! Its switching it on/off using password/switch/etc.
Description on how to disable a trap (if possible)
- switch/lever (Observation)
- magic (Magical sight)
- secret password/move sequence (Intuition)
Example:
Observation check to find a hidden switch.

Trigger conditions, and avoiding (text)
How hard it is to avoid the trap, and description, how the trap is triggered (ie. stepping into the room, opening the chest, standing on a stone plate):
1. Test (1-5) - a test to avoid is required every time condition is fulfilled
Examples:
- corridor with swinging blades, every time you go through it you have to pass Agility test, or be hit
- trapped chest, first time you open it, you have to make an Agility test, or be hit with a poison dart
2. Situational (symbol or symbols) - when a given symbol is rolled during any test in the trap closest vicinity you trigger the trap
Examples:
- room where floor is filled with switches that trigger the trap, every time you roll a symbol, you step on a switch, and the trap is triggered
- corridor with walls filled with electical energy, every time you roll a symbol, you get to close to the wall, and get electrified
3. Inevitable (-) - trap is triggered right away, when the condition is fulfilled (no additional tests required, or symbols rolled )
Examples:
- when X persons enter an empty room a door shuts behind your back (because of weight), and the room is slowly filled with water, the only possibility to avoid it is to spot the trap before entering the room, and not entering at all, or disarming/disabling it before, or after trigger

Effects (text):
What the trap does to you, when it is triggered, and you did not managed to avoid it

How many times it can be triggered (number)
Number, or infinity symbol.

Working time (progress tracker)
How long the trap works.
- hourglass symbol - trap is preparing itself to fire in this round, but is save beside that
- explosion symbol - trap fires is this round

Disarm track (progress tracker):
Description on how to disarm a trap, approximate time it takes to disarm the trap, along with symbols that let you know, what test you have to make
- chain symbol means, that you have to make Disarm Trap with Skulduggery skill check.
- flame symbol means, that you have to make Disarm Trap with Spellcraft skill check

- - - - - - - - - -

Back side of card

- - - - - - - - - -

Size (text)
How big a tap is: tiny, small, normal, big, huge (only some of tiny and small traps can be moved without breaking it into parts)

Materials (text)
wood, stone, metal, fluid/dust, magic

Fuel (text)
water, wind, poison, acid, gas, gunpowder, arrows, magic wind, warpstone

Image (is it required?)
Trap image.

Description/Fluff (text):
Short trap description.

Cost (text) ??
How much money a trap cost (is it required/possible to evaluate??)

- - - - - - - - - -

Chain trigger
Each traps can trigger another trap, when it stop working.
Write somewhere name of a trap that is triggered next after this one reaches end of its working progress tracker.
Mechanical trap cannot trigger Magical trap, and vice versa.
Both Mechanical and Magical traps can trigger Hybrid traps, as well, as Hybrid traps can trigger both Mechanical and Magical traps.

- - - - - - - - - -

Spotting/disabling/disarming:
1. Mechanical
a. spotting requires Observation check vs Difficulty
b. if spotted or someone already knows about the trap
- if trap can be disabled, players know how to do it, and are in proper range (ie. next to a switch), they can disable the trap
- if trap can be disabled and players do not know how to do it, connected skill check vs Difficulty is required if the way of disabling trap can be found in this way (maybe there are some symbols on a wall that hide the answer)
- disarming requires Skulduggery check vs Difficulty
2. Magical
a. spotting requires Magical Sight check vs Difficulty
b. if spotted or someone already knows about the trap
- if trap can be disabled and players know how to do it, and are in proper range (ie. next to a switch), they can disable the trap
- if trap can be disabled and players do not know how to do it, connected skill check vs Difficulty is required if the way of disabling trap can be found in this way (maybe there is some magical riddle that hide the answer)
- disarming requires Spellcraft check vs Difficulty
3. Hybrid
a. spotting requires Observation or Magical Sight check vs Difficulty, if you have only one of those skills learned, Difficulty is raised by 1
b. if spotted or someone already knows about the trap
- if trap can be disabled, players know how to do it, and are in proper range (ie. next to a switch), they can disable the trap
- if trap can be disabled and players do not know how to do it, connected skill check vs Difficulty is required if the way of disabling trap can be found in this way
- disarming requires Skulduggery and/or Spellcraft check vs Difficulty (depending on a symbol on a progress tracker)

Spotting is one test.

To disable a trap, you have to know how to do it (answer to the riddle, know where is the switch, and be able to reach it).

Disarming requires the use of progress tracker (you move over it using action cards)
Every trap has a progress tracker printed on it, that consists of 1 of the 2 symbols (either mechanical, or magical trap), or both (hybrid trap):
- chain symbol means, that you have to make Disarm Trap with Skulduggery skill check.
- flame symbol means, that you have to make Disarm Trap with Spellcraft skill check

When trap is triggered check the trap Working Time progress tracker (it ticks one space a round)
It consists of symbols in 2 colors:
- hourglass symbol - trap is safe (gears and chains are moving, trap is preparing itself to fire) in this round, player may use this time to escape, disarm, or disable trap
- explosion aymbol - trap attacks in this round, all players in trap range suffer the consequences

Things that make trap disarming easier
- trap disarming tools - helpful while disarming traps. Consists of probes, tongs, pliers, and other helpful tool when dealing with traps.
- help of other qualified person (ie. hybrid traps can be disarmed by 2 persons, one that takes care of mechanical parts, and the other that takes care of magical parts)
- specialised magical items, that give you magical sight, and allow to use Spellcraft skill for disarming traps (ONLY)

- - - - - - - - - -

Building a trap:
1. find a proper place to build a trap
2. gather all the required materials and fuel in the amount dependant on a trap size
3. make sure you have the proper tools
4. make a number of tests dependant on the number of materials required to build a trap
- starting trap Complexity is equal to Base Complexity, this is increased or decreased according to the tests results (see the cards at the end)
- minimum trap Complexity is 1, maximum trap Complexity is 5
- starting trap Sensitivity is equal to Base Sensitivity, this is increased or decreased according to the tests results (usually starts with higher values and is decreased if tests go well making trap more sensitive, easier to trigger while disarming)
- minimum trap Sensitivity is 1, maximum trap Sensitivity is 6

Skills required to build a trap depend on materials used:
- wood - carpentry
- stone - masonry
- metal - blacksmithing
- fluid/dust - alchemy
- magic - spellcraft

Time to build depends on trap size and complexity (a table with comlplexity as columns and size as rows?):
- tiny
- small
- normal
- big
- huge

- - - - - - - - - -

NEW CARDS

- - - - -

Set Trap (recharge ! - depends on trap size) - alows to set and hide a trap.
Difficulty equals trap Complexity.
Skill required depends on first space of trap disarm progress tracker: gearwheel - Skullduggery, flame - Spellcraft.

Conservative:
- success - you set a trap with default Base Spot value
- 2 boons - trap Base Spot value is increased by 1
- Sigmar's Comet - trap Base Spot value is increased by 1
- 2 banes - trap Base Spot value is decreased by 1
- hourglass - the task takes 1 additional time space for each hourglass rolled

Reckless:
- success - you set a trap with default Base Spot value
- 3 success - as above, and trap Base Spot value is increased by 1
- 2 boons - trap Base Spot value is increased by 1
- 2 banes - trap Base Spot value is decreased by 1
- chaos star - if the test failed, you accidently trigger the trap

- - - - -

Disarm Trap (recharge 1) - allows to disarm a trap with mechanical parts.
Difficulty equals trap Complexity.
Skill required depends on current symbol on trap progress tracker.

Conservative:
- success - you progress 1 step on a track
- 2 boons - your next disarm trap check on this trap adds [W] to the dice pool
- Sigmar's Comet - you may automatically progress 1 additional step on a track
- 2 banes - your next disarm trap check on this trap adds to the dice pool
- chaos star - add 1 token to the trap tension meter, if the tension meter reaches the trap Sensitivity value, trap is triggered automatically
- hourglass - each hourglass rolled adds 1 to this card recharge rating

Reckless:
- success - you progress 1 step on a track
- 3 success - as above, and you may automatically progress 1 additional step on a track
- 2 boons - your next disarm trap check on this trap adds [W] to the dice pool
- bane - your next disarm trap check on this trap adds to the dice pool
- 3 banes - add 1 token to the trap tension meter, if the tension meter reaches the trap Sensitivity value, trap is triggered automatically
- chaos star - add 1 token to the trap tension
meter, if the tension meter reaches the trap Sensitivity value, trap is triggered automatically

- - - - -

Build Trap (recharge ! - depends on trap size) - allows to build a trap.
Difficulty equals trap Complexity.
Skill required depends on materials trap is build with.

Conservative:
- success - you manage to create part of a trap
- 2 success - as above, add 1 to Base Complexity
- 2 boons - trap Base Sensitivity value is decreased by 1
- Sigmar's Comet - trap Base Complexity value is increased by 1
- 2 banes - trap Base Sensitivity value is increased by 1
- hourglass - the task takes 1 additional time space for each hourglass rolled

Reckless:
- success - you manage to create part of a trap
- 3 success - as above, add 1 to Base Complexity
- boon - trap Base Sensitivity value is decreased by 1
- 2 boons - trap Base Sensitivity value is decreased by 1
- 3 banes - trap Base Complexity value is decreased by 1
- chaos star - trap Base Complexity value is decreased by 1

- - - - - - - - - -

Locks

Complexity (1-5)
How complex, and difficult to open is the lock

Delay (1-6)
How much tests opening the lock requires. Uses progress tracker.

- - - - - - - - - -

NEW CARD

- - - - - - - - - -

Lockpicking (recharge 1) - allows to pick lock.
Difficulty equals lock Complexity.
Skill required is Skullduggery.

Conservative:
- success - you progress 1 step on a track
- 2 boons - your next lockpick check on this lock adds [W] to the dice pool
- Sigmar's Comet - you may progress 1 additional step on a track
- 2 banes - your next lockpick check on this lock adds to the dice pool
- chaos star - you brake the lockpick
- hourglass - each hourglass rolled adds 1 to this card recharge rating

Reckless:
- success - you progress 1 step on a track
- 3 success - as above, and you may progress 1 additional step on a track
- 2 boons - your next lockpick check on this lock adds [W] to the dice pool
- bane - your next lockpick check on this lock adds to the dice pool
- 3 banes - you brake the lockpick
- chaos star - you brake the lockpick

I want to like it, but about 1/2 way through the post I started glazing. Let me take some more time to thoughtfully read and then post a reply. I like some of what I'm seeing, but wondering if its overkill in some regards.

When you said 'card' I was thinking it'd be great to have some mechanic that when a trap is discovered (front of card) you hand the card to the player who will be disarming it and they must succeed in some combination of checks to disarm (like have the progress tracker on the card with red/green stops that can be used ON the card itself to mark progress) if they fail they flip the card and suffer the effects (built in tension...what's on the other side?) otherwise they disarm/disable it.

I love the detail you put into trapbuilding, but it doesn't feel right for the abstractions in this edition (at least to me). I'd want that detail in another system, but for this I think there's more fun ways to do it with the cards/tracker/pool mechanic than what the trap's made of.

Yeah, You are right Keltheos.

I tend to overcomplicate things

I will do like You suggest, get the building info off the card (maybe it will be usefull for some building stuff mechanic), and redesign the card a bit.

I thought about putting trap effects on the back at first, then I jumped with the silly idea of building info on the same card, but You are right, it doesn't fit well with this system, so trap effects are going where they belong -> back side.

I post again when I have this text rewritten, and maybe a bit better organised.

Thanks for the opinion

Rules rewritten, cleaned up, and put into pdf (see first post).

Tell me, what you think now.

Will definitely read again. I took more time to read through it and once I had the entire concept in my head it was a pretty solid one (but as you said, a bit on the complicated side for this system). I did see that you were already planning on incorporating the tracker into the card design, awesome!

I had hoped to reply with my less well thought out ideas last night, but reading Gathering Storm ate up that time.

Great idea! Love anything that increases the item / equipment lists and is functional from both a GM and a player perspective.

It would be really good to incorperate these in SE. I have a few ideas about some novel traps and locks that I want to post, and a variant of the item card would be a superb medium.

Adding action cards for Lock Pick, Disarm Trap and Set Trap would enhance the existing careers and further develope the diversity between characters.

Although there is a degree of complexity in the rules as devised, I just seem this as a way to build unique items with wide ranging diversity. As long as one roll for for the test is maintained (we don't want a Shardowrun scenario whereby the Decker logs in and everyone else may as well go home) it will just give me more options to torment and test the players.

I will look forward to further developments. Thank you for yur ideas and dedication.

Alp

alp said:

Working on that (not in a hurry, as I see that some ideas may pop up yet)

Any ideas concerning upgrading the base idea, or making it more simple, are very welcome, the sooner, the better (would be best to have final mechanic before I finish the plugin).

Original idea was about making more than one test while disarming trap (especially, when disarming hybrid traps that consists both of mechanical, and magical parts), but it may be possible to replace that with dice symbols like for example:

Each trap has good symbol list (like 4 hammers, 3 boons, 1 comet) that will work towards disarming the trap, and a bad symbol list (like 2 chaos stars, 2 banes) that will work towards triggering the trap.

It may still require of making more than one test, but still less than in original idea. When you get the required amount of good symbols, the trap is disarmed, if you get the required amount of bad symbols, you trigger it.

We can also make more than one type of action card for disarming, that will allow or changing various symbols into another symbols.

Thoughts?

I'm still working through it, I haven't forgotten about your great work, Sun!

keltheos said:

Hehhe, I know, I know.

You are one of the lucky ones that have the Storm already

I'm still waiting for my copy (reading Your spoilers ).

Don't rush anything, I'm not going anywhere

With some thought - but of dubious worth - I would approach a LOCK item card along the lines of;

Item Name (eg: Fiordin the Greats Study Door)

Challenge Rating (eg: Gear Wheel and <c> and/or <m> dice symbols to reperesent mechanical difficulty to pick / Lighning Strike and <c> and/or <m> to represent magical difficulty to disarm with a spell)

Sturdiness : To / Soak (representing the locks strenght when trying to force it to open)

Lock Strength : 1-5 (a fist symbol maybe) (representing how many successful Str tests it would take to Force the Lock)

Description: Fiordin the Great, Wizard Lord of the Bright Order, sees fit to protect his private study, and as such, has taken some lengths to protect his library, work and assorted treasures. The door is a sturdy dark oak door, bound in iron with a simple bronze handle. When turning the correct key in the lock the iron banding and bronze handle dissolve and form a face imbedded in the door and immediatelly depanding that the spell x with the face as the target.

Opening: Legal (eg: Key Mechnical and/or Spell (tracker to cast correct spell in time)) The safest and correct method of entry.

Opening: Illegal (eg: Lock Pick vs Gear Wheel mechaical CR and/or Dispell vs Lightning Strike magical CR)

Opening: Force (eg: strength vs sturdiness of lock (tracker before any imbedded trap is triggered)

Effect: (eg: failed lock pick trap triggered and/or failed disarm spell / correct spell trap triggered) (If the trap is triggered the face casts spell x at the nearest person before reforming the door into solid wall for y hours and sending a magical alarm to Fiordin. After y hours the door returns to normal.)

This would work in conjunction with new actions like Lock Pick and Open Lock Spell - either of which could be used to overcome the mechanical aspect of a lock - and Dispell - to overcome any magical aspect of the lock.

Please excuse the lack of clarity in in putting these ideas in writting, but if you read between the lines and with great imagination, I could this being developed to produce all manner of mechanical, magical and hybrid locks. It would also cut the testing down to one or two rolls, whilst still maintaining a good variation in lock design and complexity. It the example above the lock would have to be Illegally Opened by first using Lock Pick against mechanical CR or Open Lock Spell against magical CR, and Secondly casting either the correct spell or a successful Dispel. Failure any either roll would automatically trigger the trap. Opening the lock by Force would require a number (Lock Strength) of successful Str vs Sturdiness tests before the lock either pops open or triggers the trap. I would use a Tracker for this moving up or down depending on the number of successes and failures, but have a <cs> or <ba><ba><ba> automatically trigger the trap.

Enough of this drivel. Hopefully some sense came from this and it may give us all ideas to build a successful model. I would, always, welcome any feedback, criticism or thoughts.

Regards,

Alp

I definitely like some of Your adds Alp (if I understood them right).

Especially Sturdiness, and Force Opening. I will give them some more thought when I get some rest (hard day at work, and lack of sleep, so I'm a bit tired now ).

One thing now.

I gave some thinking to progress tracker with many tests while disarming and lockpickiing, and decided, that I will try to convince You to keep it.

Here is why.

First I think it can satisfy both sides.

You would like to keep the number of tests on disarming/lockpicking tests low, and You can do it by simply putting 1 or 2 symbols on a track. There is nothing to stop You from doing that.

To say the truth I think, that most of the traps/locks will have a progress tracker no longer than 1-3 spaces (not to mention, that my imagination is unable to get past 6 for a really, really, really complicated trap/lock). And even if it is longer, the action card example I posted above allows to progress by more than 1 space on a track if roll is good enough, so if you are lucky (or good enough), you can progress even 4 space track in just 2 rolls.

We can also invite some thieving tools/spells, that can help with that.

But there is also a place for really complicated traps and locks, that any GM can use to build additional tension.

Imagine a party chased by a group of cultists.

PC's run, and run until they get to the exit protected by a door with a very complicated lock, even more, the door are trapped (I know I'm evil, its just for examples sake... sort of ).

The chase is just a few rounds behind them, and will be catching with the group soon.

Now, the party have to keep the cultists at bay for long enough, to allow their thief to open the lock, and disable trap (or try to force the door open risking triggering the trap - force opening should always automatically trigger the trap if it is present).

His hands shaking, and sweating, lockpicks breaking while the chase is closer and closer.

And even if he manages to progress quickly on a track, there is always a chance, that by doing things fast, he will trigger the trap anyway by rolling to many stars (trap sensitivity strikes here).

Its a struggle with time. You won't achieve the same effects with just 2 rolls (ok, you can describe/roleplay it, but its still not the same as another failed check, when your enemies are at your back).

If you plan an adventure and need a one quick test, but don't want it to be too easy, just put 1 space on a disarm/lockpick track, and raise complexity to make the test harder.

On the other hand, if you want your players to sweat a bit, or hold them in one place, design your trap/lock by putting more spaces on a progress tracker, but make it a bit less complex to make individual tests easier.

The point is, You can always choose (or make 2 versions and use the one that fits your needs more at a given moment).

Fair enough - and I was probably trying to accomplish too mush into one rule / item type. I would say that I would always give the PURE Lock Pick test vs a mundane mechanical lock a straight forward vs roll against challenge rating. This will get over all the locks that are meant tt be a walk over or a straight forward challenge to an accomplished thief. More complex and plot driven locks that I tried to give an impression for could, and probably should, be governed by trackers and rules. I would think that one card could depict both, but varying the details of the checks and description and effects etc. A simple lock could have a CR rating of just <c> but your more advanced and intricate locks could add details and 'special' rules to deal with them.

You have a much clearer mind when it comes to the mechanics and ramifications of these fan rules so you can see where I mess up with more logic or intent.

Still I feel that locks should open by design (Legal), Suberfuge (illegal) or brute strength (Force). This gives any party options, and the chance that the guards may catch them.

Still thinking my way through this and when all parties have had a good imput I think the finalised house rule will be superb and cover all bases.

Thank you for listening and putting up with awfully long posts that ramble.

Alp

alp said:

Absolutely mate

I just thought, that Legal opening shouldn't require any tests, or progress trackers. You have the key, you use the key, you know the password, you say the password. Legal, and safe way. No test required, unless the password is in a foreign language hard to spell, and no one in party have a proper knowledge.

Simple "You need the key to open this door" or "You need to say the secret password" should do. If players spend the time, and effort to find it, let them use it without any further tests (the search is enough of a test).

Illegal is lockpicking, somewhat already covered, and Force opening will definitely be added.

alp said:

You do not mess up anything, we are talking more or less about the same thing.

What You are saying is (if I understand right) "put some numbers, and add special rules to description", I say "put some numbers, move the special rules to symbols at the side of card to save space on description".

It can also be easily ruled, that all trap/lock cards difficulty is a base that you use with tracker, but if you don't need the tracker, you just add a black die to the base difficulty for each symbol on a track, and make only one test (in which case one, or two chaos stars - depending on base difficulty - will trigger the trap).

Keep the ideas coming

And thanks for helping me out

Man, stupid real life interfering with getting on board with this. I think Alp's closer to what I was envisioning to begin with. Nice, guys!

Updated the Traps.pdf file.

Added/changed some stuff in it.

Read, and tell me what you think of it now.

Any ideas, on how exactly Force Opening the lock should work are much appreciated (progress track, player needs to roll proper amount of symbols, add wounds to the lock?).

Sunatet,

Could not agree more that Legal open of a lock is a simple action that requires no test. Characters can make their Gossip test locate the key, steal it, and open the lock. Unless there is a further degree of complexity (a hybrid lock as I sort of intimated). The characters may or may not know about the spell - the second level. If they do - do they know the corrct spell to cast or are they suddenly in a position whereby they have to dispell the magic to counter its impending retaliation. Hence the tracker. If the characters have in their possesion the key and know which spell to cast no test required. Not knowing the correct spell would call for the tracker whilst they all screamed at each other about what to do, all the while the GM is dropping the countdown before he takes action (each step raising party tension?).

So in summary if you have all the pieces in the puzzle there is no test required. If part of the puzzle (for your more complex variety of lock with two or more tiers of difficulty to negotiate) is missing the tracker provides a great source to indicate the urgency and tension of the situation.

Simple Mechanical locks should just be guaged as a CR to open with a lock pick/ open lock spell. The time taken, and stress of the situation would be covered in the Lock Pick action card. Maybe something along the lines of <ba><ba><ba> You break the lock pick that you are using and have to retrieve another, take 1 stress. <delay> This is taking longer and the guards are within range to make a perception test to see if they can hear anything. <cs> Ooops, your actions have broken the silence - the guards are alerted and are actively looking for the disturbance.

Simple Magical locks could follow the same scenario as the simple mechanical lock, but not be subject to the action Lock Pick (only the Open Lock Spell).

This brings onto the next stage of Lock - The Complex Lock. The Brammer Lock (I think thats what it was called) from English Lock History was designed as a challenge, and took decades before someone picked it. It took that person 60+ hours to do. This would definately require a tracker for multiple lock pick attempts. Also bundled in together would be hybrid lock requiring different disciplines (mechanical and magical) to open.

In essence a lock class (Simple or Complex) could be introduced. The simple locks requiring a straight vs test (of varying difficulty) the time taken and outcomes predicted by the dice symbols. The Complex locks being more plot driven - not a test but a whole episode or act with trackers and pre-requisites - the need for multiple successful tests and conditions that have to be met (password, etc).

Trying to codify this onto one item card is problematical to say the least - so maybe a short rules appendum (sp?) governing lock classes and tests required, with individual locks represented by cards.

Food for thought anyway. It would be great to here Keltheos' views once he has had time to look through these ideas, as I feel we maybe all talking about the same thing with a slightly different interpretation. Fresh ideas are always like a fresh breeze and sometimes the simplest comment brings everything together. There was talk of a Thieves supplement for V2, which was never published. How I wish we had that - or something similar - now, to draw inspiration from.

I think we are getting there. A rules light system like Warhammer 3e needs a fairly straight forward approach so that all cases are covered and the complexity is derived from the GM's wish, or plot requirement.

Any thoughts and comments are, as always, greatly appreciated.

Alp

Ok guys, I made some trap card backgrounds prototype (I may shrink them a bit later)

Front:

And back:

I added to the newest pdf, where I would put the symbols and info on those backgrounds.

If any of you have some better idea, or artistic skills (that I do not have unfortunately), please share

And I have a proposition (since I planned to make the trap cards from the beginning, and lock cards are very tempting, and discussion shows, that it may be fun, and interesting to make them too, but they require a bit more polishing), to split the discussion into 2 parts.

I propose to first finish the traps, since Its rules seem to be more complete and I already have the backgrounds.

When I get the final rules I can start making SE addon with it, and we can finish discussing locks (and use finished trap rules as a template).

If we do this, we can make some traps without waiting for locks, test them, and gather some knowledge on to what put on lock cards.

What I would need from you, is to read the rules from the last pdf considering traps (skip the locks for now), give them some thought, post the parts you do not agree with, along with your rule proposals (and action card proposals), and maybe some examples (would be nice, if you could put that into some file for easier reading - forum posts are hard to read sometimes). The same with the rules you think that should be added/removed.

In this way we can quick and easy find a satisfying compromise, and move to the next subject (locks ).

What do you say?

PS: I will be a bit short on time in next few days, but I try to answer your posts as often as possible.

Hi all (long post - sorry),

It does seem to be rather cumbersome working on two concepts at the same time, so splitting this is a great idea. Once we have finished with traps we can move onto other projects.

I have just finished reading the updated file that Sunatet has made and like what I am seeing. What is written below is probably a reiteration of the PDF, and is written mainly to aid my own thoughts. I love the card templates and ca't wait to see them fully populated with a whole host of traps to surprise the party with!

The first thing I think we need is a definition of what a TRAP is. I have put my own version below, but it is a bit rough and ready and could probably use some polish. The words I have capitalised are those that I think warrant special detail on the card.

DEFINITION a trap is a DEVICE (being MECHANICAL, MAGICAL or HYBRID) that, once SET, is designed to cause an EFFECT once TRIGGERED. Most traps also have a method to DISARM them (either by simple evasion, or a defined method). By their nature they are CONCEALED. A trap can be either SIMPLE (eg: a hunters snare, a covered over spiked pit, etc) or COMPLEX (eg: a needle trap, a time DELAYED mine, etc)

DEVICE trap name

DESCRIPTION the fluff about the trap

MECHANICAL, MAGICAL & HYBRID the components that make up the trap

SET the degree of dificulty it takes to create this trap (used in conjunction with the Action Card - Set Trap)

EFFECT the result of triggering the trap (eg: physical damage, magical or physical alarm, etc)

DELAY the time period before the effect is triggered.

TRIGGER the means by which the trap is activated (eg: pressure switch, proximity, casting magic, etc)

SENSITIVITY how much of a hair trigger does this thing have? Represented by misfortune dice when trying to perform a Disarm check.

DISMARM the method by which the effect of the trap is avoided (either by knowing how - no test required, or by using the Action Card - Disarm Trap or Cantrip - Disarm Trap)

CONCEALMENT how well the trap is hidden or disguised (a base symbol modified by the result of the Action Card - Set Trap roll)

SIMPLE a simplistic trap that once spotted is easy to avoid or disarm (a simple Spot Trap roll would suffice here as once you have seen the bear trap you don't stand on it! - unless you are a particularly billigerant troll slayer)

COMPLEX a much more intricate device that will take multiple levels of tests to disarm. These traps can't be avoided - they need to be disarmed. This is represented by the checks required to disarm the trap (mundane or magical) - each check taking one round.

I still need to think about re-set, althought 1 through infinity is fair.

As for cards! Spot Trap is vs the base concealment of the trap modified by the results of the set trap action. Disarming a Simple trap is either automatic or a simple test against disarm trap. Disarming a Complex trap will require a number of tests, mechanical or magical or a combination thereof, using either disarm trap or the cantrip modified by the Sensitivity.

I think I have understood how Sunatet is approaching this, and hope this is a fair response - albight I have tweeked some things for how my mind works. In truth we could go with the PDF as written. I am looking forward to seeing on how much we agree, or disagree

Alp

We agree

I like Your trap definition. Its always good to have one, consider it added to the pdf next update.

Oh, and nice idea on Sensitivity. I wondered what to do with it in case of simple check (when you roll just once, and you probably never achieve the amount of chaos stars that could trigger the trap in case of multiple tests with progress tracker). Now I know -> just add misfortune dice .

For cards you will have to wait a bit more

Ok, I have the plugin.

it can be found here: www.gmtools.excelocms.com/houserules.html , along with slightly modified rules.

I moved the lock rules into their own file here: www.gmtools.excelocms.com/houserules/Locks.pdf .

Check it out, and tell me how it looks like (the default plugin trap is just an example).

Cards are looking great, as is the PDF! I like the idea of GM information on the back face and character on the front face (simply put it on a stand between you) - this could quite easlily define what a player sees and what the GM sees. (I hope I am getting the intention correct). If this is the case I would put such details as as the disarm "key" and sensitivity on the GM's side of the card. Whilst the 'fluff', a sporty picture, and all the stuff that a player can SEE without interupting the roleplaying aspect on the players side.

This leads to two eventualities.

1) The characters stumble on a TRAP and observation tests are made. If one or more successful tests are made the card is placed between players and GM (on a stand etc so each player can see their relevant information, as can the GM).

2) A character decides to set a TRAP and looks through his inventory of cards - those that he has learnt how to build (purchased through training - money, time and roleplay - but not costing an adavance?). The character would then take ownership of said card - if he has successfully SET the trap. In effect reversing the faces of the card - quite tricky unless the Set Trap Action Card details the modifiers for spot, sensitivity, etc.

I love this concept as it is, but I am still just trying to put a few ideas out there to see if we can produce a few refinements - which I very much doubt.

Just a few thoughts - hopefully inspirational, but probably more of a hinderance.

Food for thought?

Alp

The idea of effects on one side, and the rest on the other was taken from one of the first Keltheos posts in this topic.

The main assumption was, that the card lies face up until triggered, providing all the information needed for description/disarming/disabling/spotting/avoiding.

Only when it is triggered, the GM switch faces, and brings doom to his players .

Picture is something that would be nice, but I'm afraid there is not much place left on the card for it.

Due to my inborn laziness I will keep the card as it is for now .

But we can start to think slowly about locks (it the trap cannot stop them... maybe the lock will).

Ahhh .... that explains it. Nice concept. Everything seems pretty much covered now, but maybe if we can come up with one or two trap designs each to test the parameters it would be good.

Here is my first design of a simple trap;

Front Side

Name: Bear Trap

Traits: SIMPLE, Portable, Mechanical

Spot: 1 Complexity: 0 Sensitivity: 1

Description: A simple device used to trap large game, or an unwary foe. This device is often concealed under loose leaf litter, or other natural debris.

Disabling: <i>Agility</i> check to secure a safety pin to prevent the trap from triggering.

Trigger: If you stand on this trap you must make an <c> Agility test or are caught in the jaws of the bear trap.

Disarm: (1) Mechanical

Back Side

Repeatability: 1

Effect: If you stand on the trigger of the trap, you activate the spring loaded jaws, which immediately pin your leg unleashing a <b><i>Basic Melee</b></i> attack with WS3.

You are also subject to the <i>entangled</i> status.

This may need a bit of a re-write but I am sure you get the idea. Do you think it will represent a Bear Trap?

Alp

alp said:

Few adds/removals if I can:

Trait: simple is not needed. In the pdf there are 2 diffrent types of trap disarming. Both can be used for the same trap (no matter if it is simple, or complex with many symbols on tracks). I would leave the decission as to what test (simple, or complex) and action card player should use to GM and situation.

Trigger: I see a problem here with the sentence "if you stand on this trap". No player will stand on it from his own will, and if You tell them, that they did just because, you ask for trouble . You need to add something here. I would go with Situational trap triggering here. So instead of "if you stand on this trap make Agility test" trigger condition would be rather something like: "if you roll a chaos star in the trap close vicinity you trigger the trap and suffer the consequences" or "if a player tries to move in close vicinity of the trap that is not spotted yet, make an Agility test of difficulty XX, if failed, suffer consequences".

Effect: Basic Melee with WS3 as I understand means 3 yellow dice against player defence? What about blue? How much base damage it does?

Not sure if the trap attack is needed here. If You go with Agility test, then this one test should give You enough symbols to trigger some effects (like I did in the exapmle in the plugin).

But it may be required if You go with situational trigger like "if you roll chaos star in close vicinity", then the additional test may be a good idea. But then it will require a bit more info (DR, CR, strength, skill), and the back side of card is big enough to put there lines for rolled symbols you see fit, Basic Melee is not required at all.

It may look like:

Trap Str: 3, WS: 1, DR: 5, CR 2.

If triggered make an WS vs defence test:

<su> trap hits for normal damage

<su><su><su> as above +1 critical

<bo> you gain the entangled condition

<cs> trap jamms itself, unable to fully close (its rusty you know), double your soak

Sorry it took me so long to post here again, but it took me some time to rethink a few bits.

Plus, locks require to be finished

As I said, after toying with traps for a bit I say: "You were right Alp".

One check is more than enough to disarm any trap, it can be narrated accordingly to situation, and take as much time, as I need.

So I redesigned, and simplified the rules a bit (along with SE plugin trap code rewrite), plus made some more work on locks.

Everything (Traps.pdf, Locks.pdf, and SE plugin) can be found in usual place: www.gmtools.excelocms.com/houserules.html

Right now I'm wondering how the lock card should look like, how big should it be (action card/condition card), and if I should put something more on it.

Any more help/ideas appreciated.

Cheers.