So, we've been playing for a while, and it really came to a head this week that duelling wasn't quite right. I've looked at some of the stuff on here and we're going to institue some fixes. One of the fixes I had considered was allowing a character to take a Support or Scheme action as part of their Initiative roll in a Duel, representing some of the potential psychological games that might be played or focusing done. However, when I checked back through the rules, I realised there's about 1 Kata and 1 Shuji that inflicts any Strife at all, about 3 Kiho and Invocations and 1 Maho- not great, and most are attacks anyway.

I was considering creating, at the very least, some basic Shuji that could be used in both Skirmishes and Duels as well as Intrigues, especially as Compromising your opponent seems like a likely aim if you want to get them to do something- several Shuji force your opponent to do something when Compromised.

So I was considering, for Rank 1 Shuji: I'm thinking maybe Air and Fire would inflict Strife, Water and Void might reduce it and Earth grants resistance to it? As a base idea. Fire and Void are probably stronger but require forfeiture of Honour and Glory respectively.

That would give Courtiers a better chance of doing something beyond just learning the far more useful Kata.

To be honest, you don’t really need specific Shuji to inflict Strife: any social or other skill roll done as part of a “special action” (the last dueling action type in the book), using the Fire approach, can make use of the opportunity spend to inflict two Strife and double opp to force the target to take 2 Strife if they make an attack or scheme action against you during their next turn. Fanning the flames as a Shuji works pretty well in combo with that too.

Now, you could pretty much do the same while striking them, even purposefully missing just to keep those opportunities...

Finally, with the above being taken in consideration, I already feel that courtiers (some of them at least) are already dangerously close to outshining straight-up bushis in the dueling department. The Ikoma bard with their school ability come on top of that list 😛 Not sure I need to give them extra humph!

Fire is absolutely devastating to give strife;
2 strife for 1 opp.
another 2 strife if they attack you with 2 opp.
MORE strife on them if you happen to roll initiative in fire, or a resist check in fire !!

two schools also have abilities that should NEVER be allowed to be used in duels; ikoma and hiruma.

but I don't see how you think courtiers have less chance, aside from their school ability not really helping duels, they can take the same 2 katas that matters; crossing cut and heartpiercing strike, and can have a good earth ring.

it is slightly more work/xp than building a bushi duelist... but barely.

48 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Fire is absolutely devastating to give strife;
2 strife for 1 opp.
another 2 strife if they attack you with 2 opp.
MORE strife on them if you happen to roll initiative in fire, or a resist check in fire !!

two schools also have abilities that should NEVER be allowed to be used in duels; ikoma and hiruma.

but I don't see how you think courtiers have less chance, aside from their school ability not really helping duels, they can take the same 2 katas that matters; crossing cut and heartpiercing strike, and can have a good earth ring.

it is slightly more work/xp than building a bushi duelist... but barely.

And to a lesser extent the Miya Herald.

40 minutes ago, Nheko said:

And to a lesser extent the Miya Herald.

I think the Miya Herald ability is OK.
sure it helps for duels, but it isn't as unintendedly strong as Ikoma's and Hiruma's abilities are for duels. That just doesn't make sense for these abilities to be that good for duels, mechancially and narratively.

but fair point! Miya courtier does have an edge in duels.

• Quite a few courtier schools can do well in duels.
  • Doji diplomats can use Speaking in Silence to pull automatic opportunities in a check to influence someone - I'd say fire stance courtesy or sentiment checks aimed at getting under someone's skin during a duel scene probably qualifies.
  • Ikoma Bards agitating with Heart of the Lion can thrown a huge amount of strife at the enemy and reduce their own simultaneously.
  • Asako Loremasters - boosted scholar skills don't sound that useful, but Sentiment is a scholar skill, not a social skill, and that's the primary skill for watching someone for feints, twitches, nervousness, etc.
  • Bayushi manipulators shouldn't be overlooked if you can identify a disadvantage prior to the fight since you can pull on that disadvantage with Weakness is My Strength without giving up a (potential your only ) void point, letting you seize the moment for an extra die and get potentially 3+ rerolls on the one blow in the duel that really matters.
  • Soshi Illusionist - it's cheating like a [censored] but so long as no-one with a decent vigilance is in the vicinity you can use your invocations

I think the Bayushi Manipulator technique works on scheme actions only, so it won’t help to hit the opponent, but it can arguably help to use a social skill roll to Strife the heck out of them.

I find it works best in Clashes, rather than duels: the Challenge action is a scheme action, so this can be a good setup.

On 1/29/2019 at 7:50 AM, Nheko said:

And to a lesser extent the Miya Herald.

Seems to me like the Heralds school ability is game breakingly powerful in all instances. Unless I’m misunderstanding it.

Why do Hiruma abilities need to be nerfed in a duel? Spamming Earth?

8 minutes ago, AndyDay303 said:

Why do Hiruma abilities need to be nerfed in a duel? Spamming Earth?

It is mostly a problem with duels to first blood. The Hiruma can basically use any stance to attack, and then switch back to Earth so the opponent cannot crit. That also bypass the Predict action so there are no ways of taking the Hiruma out of earth Stance. Which makes him very strong and safe and boring to duel against (first blood/crit duels).

edit: THOUGH, with my latest houserule, it doesn't matter. So I probably can revert the hiruma houserule as it won't be obnoxiously boring for duels anymore.
That latest tweak to Rising Blade Kata fixes sooo many loophole...

4 hours ago, AndyDay303 said:

Seems to me like the Heralds school ability is game breakingly powerful in all instances. Unless I’m misunderstanding it.

Why do Hiruma abilities need to be nerfed in a duel? Spamming Earth?

Yes the Miya are powerful, but is a reflection that normally nobody wants to hurt the Miya, they are the imperial messengers and their caravans help everyone.

12 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

It is mostly a problem with duels to first blood. The Hiruma can basically use any stance to attack, and then switch back to Earth so the opponent cannot crit. That also bypass the Predict action so there are no ways of taking the Hiruma out of earth Stance. Which makes him very strong and safe and boring to duel against (first blood/crit duels).

edit: THOUGH, with my latest houserule, it doesn't matter. So I probably can revert the hiruma houserule as it won't be obnoxiously boring for duels anymore.
That latest tweak to Rising Blade Kata fixes sooo many loophole...

Doesn’t your house rule revolve entirely around a single kata? Doesn’t really seem like a fix to me. More of a bandaid.

6 hours ago, AndyDay303 said:

Doesn’t your house rule revolve entirely around a single kata? Doesn’t really seem like a fix to me. More of a bandaid.

It depends what you have the intention of "fixing". For me it was primarly the first blood/hit duels and giving the possibility of doing an Iaijutsu win, but not easily. Also, being able to bypass earth stance on the first strike and making predict and center action a bit more worthwhile.

I find that the house rule resolving around a single Kata gives that possibility, while still allowing other ways of winning to be viable. Rising Blade kata is particularly cool in that sense because of its variable TN which would generally mean it is harder to have an Iai win against a higher ranked duelist with more vigilance (also making vigilance an important derived stat for duels to first blood. Also the Center action becomes a very valid action to make your Rising Blade able to succeed. The predict action still stay quite bad, but the houserule doesn't make it worst.

Overall, the only thing left for duels at this point would be:

Having an action that is specifically made to put strife on the opponent. And slightly giving predict action more purpose.

What do you feel should be fixed for duels?

45 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

What do you feel should be fixed for duels?

Probably everything. I’m working on it!

7 minutes ago, AndyDay303 said:

Probably everything. I’m working on it!

Curious to see your take on it.

Personally, I am trying to make the houserules as minimal as possible. The less I can have, the best it is.

11 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Curious to see your take on it.

Personally, I am trying to make the houserules as minimal as possible. The less I can have, the best it is.

I am in the same boat, generally. For Iaijutsu duels specifically I’m considering a full scale mini game, since I love the theme of duels, and I want them to stand out.

But this isn’t a dueling thread. I’ll post something if I ever finish something I like.