Hello,

An attack dealt enough damage to kill a figure. Is the figure defeated during step 7 or is it defeated after step 7?

Thanks!

During step 7 after the figure or object suffered damage equal to its health, the figure or object is defeated or destroyed.

3 hours ago, a1bert said:

During step 7 after the figure or object suffered damage equal to its health, the figure or object is defeated or destroyed.

Thanks @a1bert . So in a Greedo vs Greedo scenario it would work like this, right?

1. G1 attacks G2

2. Slow on the draw and G2 attacks G1

3. Slow on the draw and G1 attacks G2

4. G2 is killed (damage equal to HP)

5. Parting Shot and G2 attacks G1

6. G1 is killed (damage equal to HP)

7. Parting Shot and G1 attacks G2

8. G2 can't suffer further damage but he's defeated at step 7

9. Game ends because G1 reached 40 VPs

That of course assumes reciprocal line of sight.

Parting Shot can attack any hostile figure or an object that can be attacked, so G1 would not attack G2 with Parting Shot unless G2 is the only valid target. It is thus possible for G1 to win the game before being defeated (by defeating a third party figure or destroying an object that grants VP).

1 hour ago, a1bert said:

That of course assumes reciprocal line of sight.

Parting Shot can attack any hostile figure or an object that can be attacked, so G1 would not attack G2 with Parting Shot unless G2 is the only valid target. It is thus possible for G1 to win the game before being defeated.

Ok I initially thought G1 and G2 where defeated at same time and conflict would make attacker-then-defender order to solve the issue. This would have maken G2 win instead of G1.

There is only "same time" if the abilities have the same trigger. I don't think there are any timing conflicts in your example that would not have an explicit timing specified (like "before being defeated").

4 hours ago, a1bert said:

That of course assumes reciprocal line of sight.

Parting Shot can attack any hostile figure or an object that can be attacked, so G1 would not attack G2 with Parting Shot unless G2 is the only valid target. It is thus possible for G1 to win the game before being defeated (by defeating a third party figure or destroying an object that grants VP).

I guess You imply, that it's illegal (or rather semi-legal) to attack a target that already has suffered dmg equal to it's health. Do You have any clear ruling concerning this matter or is it "just" your interpretation?

It's not illegal. On the contrary, I said you have to attack Greedo if there is no other valid target for Parting Shot, but why would you attack a figure that has already suffered damage equal to health if you have other targets you can attack to try to win?

I came into it when I was thinking about countering greedo with eJets. When eJet kills greedo during Greedos activation thanks to slow on the draw (or just outside of ejets activation), he can attack "dead" greedo just to get 2 mps and try to get out of his LoS to avoid parting (as long as he is within 2 spaces ofc) - because od the "after the attack abilities, before anything else" rulling. Then, when Dying Lounge appeared I came back to this with a hope of "killing" the "dead" target again (dying lounging figure, that dying lounged my figure to death). This idea was based on the assumption, that attacking "dead" figure and performing all the steps of the attack triggers the "damage check" again and results in the "dead" figure being defeated before it is able to resolve it's attack and kill my figure. I have to admit however, that this assumption wasn't based on the rules but rather my feeling (cause It was just speculating - didn't have time to check it propertly). Now, when I read RRG I see, that there are no clear indications, that this king of check actually takes place, which would lead to a conclusion, that you can't "kill" "dead" figure again

4 hours ago, a1bert said:

It's not illegal. On the contrary, I said you have to attack Greedo if there is no other valid target for Parting Shot, but why would you attack a figure that has already suffered damage equal to health if you have other targets you can attack to try to win?

In our situation G1 could legally target G2 only. Players were 38-36 and G1 attacks G2. Problem is to understand who wins first

I'm actually more confused than before I read this thread

Assume there are no other figures around besides the two Greedos. Can G1 attack an already "dead" G2 to trigger another damage check (winning the game) before he himself is killed?

Timing-wise G1 attacks first because of G1 parting shot-->-g2 slow on the draw shot----->G1 slow on the draw shot sequence. In that case If this attack puts G2 owner above 40 he wins the game, because he scored 40 points before his parting shot "then defeated" triggers and it's the last shot in the sequence which, as a result is resolved first.

If you go deeper the answer depends on the question asked by myself and ManateeX.

However, If you can't "kill" already "dead" figure by attacking it again, G2 should Win, because he killed G1 with his parting (point 6) and because - as You stated - Greedos didnt have any more legal targets G1 parting (point 7) and all next points doesn't change the board state in any way.

Here's my attempt at colour-coding to make things clearer

1. G1 declares attack on G2

2. G2 declares slow on the draw attack on G1

3. G1 Declares slow on the draw attack on G2.

4. G2 suffers damage equal to his health.

5. G2 declares parting shot on G1

6. G1 suffers damage equal to his health

7. G1 declares parting shot on G2 (who has already suffered damage equal to health)???

8. G2 takes hits, but suffers no additional damage because he has already hit his health threshold

9. G2 dies as a result of this attack ending and him having suffered damage equal to his health (ending the game with a G1 win) ???

10. G1 dies because of the "then you are defeated" text on parting shot, ending the game with a G2 win if it had not already been ended.

11. G2 would otherwise be defeated because of the parting shot text, but this doesn't happen because of the above

12. This attack is now over since both Greedos have already been defeated

13. Similarly, this attack no longer happens

14.Similarly, this attack no longer happens.

So the winner comes down to the two statements I'm unsure of, numbers 7 and 9. I believe that #7 is probably correct (G2 has not been defeated yet, so he seems like he should be a valid target).

But is #9 correct? G2 has suffered no additional damage during this attack, but he has suffered damage equal to his health (he just did it earlier before all the parting shot shenanigans). This is where I have no idea what the actual ruling is.

I'm certain the "check defeat again" argument is a quite old old, but I don't remember a ruling for it. My default view is that defeat is only checked when you suffer damage (or your health changes).

(Now some googling..)

(Edit: seems I have asked about when defeat is checked in conjunction of other things but it produced no ruling.)

Thanks @manatee_x , the colored list explains exactly the situation. And brings to my initial question.

At bullet 9 G2 is hit but he doesn't suffer extra damage. I wanted to understand if G2 was defeated at step 7 of the attack because otherwise he would be defeated after step 7 getting into conflict with the "then you are defeated" of G1's parting shot (with G1 being the attacker and resolving defeated event before G2).

@a1bert said that G2 is actually defeated during step 7, hence there's no conflict.

Moreover, about the evaluation of the defeated condition rule states "When a figure has a number of damage tokens equal to its Health, the figure is defeated.". Now I'm not a native speaker, so you can correct me on this, but the "when a figure has ..." sounds like it's evaluated regardless the amount of damage dealt. Now reading step 7 of an attack, it states "... then the target suffers all remaining damage", it can possibly suffer zero damage and then satisfy the defeated condition.

On 1/25/2019 at 1:13 PM, Trevize84 said:

Thanks @manatee_x , the colored list explains exactly the situation. And brings to my initial question.

At bullet 9 G2 is hit but he doesn't suffer extra damage. I wanted to understand if G2 was defeated at step 7 of the attack because otherwise he would be defeated after step 7 getting into conflict with the "then you are defeated" of G1's parting shot (with G1 being the attacker and resolving defeated event before G2).

@a1bert said that G2 is actually defeated during step 7, hence there's no conflict.

Moreover, about the evaluation of the defeated condition rule states "When a figure has a number of damage tokens equal to its Health, the figure is defeated.". Now I'm not a native speaker, so you can correct me on this, but the "when a figure has ..." sounds like it's evaluated regardless the amount of damage dealt. Now reading step 7 of an attack, it states "... then the target suffers all remaining damage", it can possibly suffer zero damage and then satisfy the defeated condition.

Checking if a figure has damage equal to its health and is defeated isn't a part of step 7, it's just an ongoing check. Just because you're going through step 7 of an attack doesn't mean you recheck defeated status if you wouldn't already be doing so.

Since we know that checking if a figure has damage equal to its health and becomes defeated is an ongoing check that isn't contingent on any attack step, there is a problem if we try to reapply that check to a figure that interrupting it's own defeat with parting shot. If it were possible to "recheck" if Greedo is defeated by having 7 damage on him but before he is defeated by the effect of his own parting shot, and we know that checking to see if a figure is defeated by having damage equal to its health is an ongoing thing that is not tied to any specific step, then the logical conclusion of applying both of those premises is that Greedo would be defeated as soon as he started resolving parting shot in any normal scenario. Greedo suffers 7th damage, initiates parting shot to interrupt being defeated, then becomes defeated immediately as soon as he moves to the first step of declaring his attack if you are constantly rechecking if whether he's defeated or not.

Since we know that's not how parting shot works, I would say that parting shot suspends the defeated damage check on Greedo indefinitely until the "then you are defeated" part of the effect resolves. Note that if Greedo was dealt his 7th damage by an attack, then he would still be defeated by his own parting shot during step 7 of the attack that dealt the 7th damage to him.

Thanks @Tvboy , that makes sense to me.

Also Greedo may be awesome, but he continually makes my head hurt

Just stop attacking other Greedos with your Greedo with mutual line of sight. 😜

got a rulling from Todd. You can attack the figure that has suffered dmg equal to it's toughness, but You can't "kill" it again.

Hi Todd,

I have some more questions regarding IA.

1. Is it possible to attack a figure, that already has suffered dmg equal to it's health?

ie. Greedo attacks eJet, eJet kills him with slow on the draw attack, Greedo triggers parting and jet declares another slow on the draw attack to benefit from fly-by movements points to break LoS.

IF YES

2. Does step 7 of attack contain some kind of endurace check which leads to a "dead" figure being defeated despite it didn't recieve any dmg during the attack.

ie. Vader A kills Vader B, Vader B Dying Lounges to kill Vader A, Vader A Dying Lounges to attack already "defeated" Vader B to deal 0 dmg, but kill him thanks to the fact, that at the end of attack Vader A has suffered dmg equal to his endurace.

Regards,

Greg

Hi Greg,

1. Yes, you can attack a figure that has already suffered damage equal to its health, but…
2. A figure’s defeat is only triggered when its health moves from a positive value to 0. In your example, Vader A could use Dying Lunge to attack Vader B, but it won’t actually cause Vader B to be defeated. When the attack resolves, Vader A is still defeated first.

These interrupting attack chains produce some strange effects, but ultimately moving from 0 health to 0 health does not create a new defeat trigger.

Thanks for the question!

--

Todd Michlitsch
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]

8 hours ago, Szycha said:

got a rulling from Todd. You can attack the figure that has suffered dmg equal to it's toughness, but You can't "kill" it again.

Thanks for this! So apparently G2 wins...