Figures are typically defeated in Step 7 of an Attack. For cards such as Celebration ("Use after a unique hostile figure is defeated") and Heroic Effort ("When one of your figures is defeated"), do you use initiative to determine the order of play or do you use attacker-then-defender per the FAQ? Basically are these cards happening during the attack or after the attack?

slightly confused on the question, there's no conflict between Celebration and Heroic Effort: one says to gain VP the other one says to draw command card and they're completely different effects. The timing sequence (mission rule -> attacker -> defender, or who has initiative) only comes into the picture when there's a conflict

For example, if both figure has reroll abilities (ex. eStorm vs. Diala it'd be attacker->defender) or both figures have mission end-of-round bonus (ex. Rogue Han vs. Hatred Vader it'd be whoever has initiative)

what is the situation you're thinking of?

From being defeated during step 7 (target defeated/destroyed) it's mission,attacker,defender,other(for example if attacking an object), also if from nested abilities originally triggered by the attack as per a recent ruling. (i.e. "during attack" timing is used whenever there is an attack resolution pending.)

Outside of attacks mission,order of initiative.

On 1/25/2019 at 1:16 AM, ricope said:

What is the situation you're thinking of?

Use Heroic Effort to potentially draw into Negation in order to cancel Celebration.

If it goes attacker->defender then Celebration always goes off. If it goes by initiative, and the defending player has initiative, then there is a chance this situation occurs.

(Insert "so you're saying there's a chance" meme)

adding in my own question on this topic,

Celebration says "Use AFTER a unique hostile figure is defeated..."

Heroic Efforts says "WHEN one of your unique figures is defeated..."

Would heroic effort happen concurrently with the figure being defeated, followed by Celebration happening after the event?

In Battle Meditation "When you rest" is considered to be at the time of your choice - before rest recovers the strain/damage or after rest recovers the strain/damage.

So there would be merit in an argument that "after" is a different timing than "when" (which could be "at the beginning" or "at the end"), and "after" is strictly after "when".

In Armada, those terms are defined - "When" is "As soon as this happens", IE, the start of the trigger. Whereas "Before" is of course, before, and "After" is after.

The only term that gives timing choice is "While" and that still happens After Before, and Before After... I would have assumed IA is the same, but don't have access to teh online rulebook to check right now...

Yes, the wordings - especially in the core - are not totally consistent. "When" is used both for "when X, do Y" and "when performing X, do Y". "while" would be appropriate and more consistent in the latter case.

("Before" is actually a strange timing because it breaks causality.)

Just want to clarify @a1bert that effects that happen "before" an event would still have to happen before effects that happen "when" an event occurs.

The scenario that came up was Dying Lunge and Heroic Effort.

Dying Lunge = before a figure is defeated
Heroic Effort = when a figure is defeated

If you draw a card from Heroic Effort, then it is too late to play Dying Lunge.

@Smashotron Reply from Todd on the OP, with scenario Onar shooting SC Zeb for the kill and attempt to play celebration:

"Hi Dane,

“When” and “after” are indeed different timings. (Procedurally, they both occur after a certain trigger, but all “when” effects resolve before any “after” effects.) Heroic Effort would resolve before Celebration, giving Zeb a chance to draw something relevant.

Thanks for the question!