I had a couple questions that would apply to abilities like Dying Lunge or Parting Shot, roughly revolving around whether you can win the game right before your opponent would otherwise.

The short version would be:

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If you reach 40+ VP by defeating a figure during one of these abilities, does the game end before "Then you are defeated"?

The long version would be all these questions I bombarded my friends with:

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1) If one of my figures was defeated and would put my opponent at 40+VP, I could still play Dying Lunge. If I defeat that figure and get 40+VP, does the game end before "Then you are defeated"?

2) Conversely, if I defeated a unique figure but would have <40VP, is there a window for Celebration after defeating their figure but before "Then you are defeated"?

3) Lastly, if the figure would put me at 40+VP, can I still play Celebration in case we both compare totals over 40VP?

The RRG has this clear-cut entry, but I wasn't sure if there was any precedent established to fully resolve those abilities and reach "Then you are defeated" before actually accumulating your VPs.

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RRG p.25

Winning a Skirmish Mission

The mission ends as soon as one player has accumulated 40 or more victory points (VPs). The player with the most VPs wins the game.

Thanks!

Once you have something, you either complete it fully (to the best of its abilities) or just not start at all

The trigger for Dying Lunge is "when you have suffered damage equal to your health, before you are defeated , do X"

1. No, your figure hasn't been defeated... yet , hence your opponent doesn't get the VP... yet . So once you play Dying Lunge you finish the entire command card all the way to the end to "Then, you are defeated"

2. trigger for Celebration is "after a hostile figure is defeated", so yes you may play Dying Lunge -> kill an enemy unique figure -> play Celebration -> rest of Dying Lunge kicks in and "then, you are defeated"

3. don't quite understand, which figure would put you at 40+VP? you killing a hostile unique or your own figure is defeated after Dying Lunge finish?

1 hour ago, ricope said:

3. don't quite understand, which figure would put you at 40+VP? you killing a hostile unique or your own figure is defeated after Dying Lunge finish?

I'm pretty sure it's the unique figure he defeats with Dying Lunge to play Celebration.

If that puts him above 40 vp he would win instantly, before Dying Lunge has been fully resolved and his figure is defeated, right?

10 minutes ago, Majushi said:

I'm pretty sure it's the unique figure he defeats with Dying Lunge to play Celebration.

If that puts him above 40 vp he would win instantly, before Dying Lunge has been fully resolved and his figure is defeated, right?

Disagree, you either play Dying Lunge or you don't

If you play it then Dying Lunge resolves fully, you can't say "oops hold it I'm not gonna let the 2nd part of Dying Lunge resolve, I got 40VP I win!"

When resolving mission rules, "as soon as" is not instant, you seem to resolve the mission rule to the end. (I.e. you don't stop after the player with initiative gains VP >= 40, but resolve the rule for the other player(s) too.)

Fair point, but if dying lunge and celebration puts the player on more vps they win. (Both hit. 40+ vps at the same time. Right?)

10 hours ago, ricope said:

Disagree, you either play Dying Lunge or you don't

If you play it then Dying Lunge resolves fully, you can't say "oops hold it I'm not gonna let the 2nd part of Dying Lunge resolve, I got 40VP I win!"

8 hours ago, a1bert said:

When resolving mission rules, "as soon as" is not instant, you seem to resolve the mission rule to the end. (I.e. you don't stop after the player with initiative gains VP >= 40, but resolve the rule for the other player(s) too.)

You do resolve mission rules like scoring objectives simultaneously, but in this scenario the VP are gained by one player effect. VP over 40 would be scored from either:

a) As soon as the hostile figure is defeated due to Dying Lunge (before "Then you are defeated").

b) As soon as Celebration is played, after a unique hostile figure is defeated, as a card effect (before "Then you are defeated").

I am wondering where it states, or where a precedent had been establish, that a player could not win with Dying Lunge/Parting Shot or the use of Celebration, before the opponent properly defeats the friendly figure that would subsequently be defeated (if the game continued).

Here are the full rules for winning a skirmish mission. The use a bold matches RRG p25.

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Winning a Skirmish Mission

The mission ends as soon as one player has accumulated 40 or more victory points (VPs). The player with the most VPs wins the game. VPs come from two main sources:

• Defeating Figures: When the last figure in a group is defeated, the opposing player scores points equal to the deployment cost of that group. To track this, the card’s controller places the Deployment card near his opponent.

• Card Effects: Each Skirmish Mission card lists a special way in which players can gain VPs. Some Command or Deployment cards also list additional ways in which players gain VPs.

If all of a player’s figures are defeated, he loses the game immediately, regardless of victory points.

The RRG seems to stress "as soon as (possible)". The very last part also raises the question of whether if I Dying Lunge/Parting Shot with my last friendly figure and defeat his last figure, who "loses the game immediately, regardless of victory points"? I would argue there is a board-state where all my opponent's figures are defeated, but my last figure has not been defeated yet. This last rule indicated that you check the board-state immediately.

3 hours ago, Smashotron said:

You do resolve mission rules like scoring objectives simultaneously, but in this scenario the VP are gained by one player effect. VP over 40 would be scored from either:

a) As soon as the hostile figure is defeated due to Dying Lunge (before "Then you are defeated").

b) As soon as Celebration is played, after a unique hostile figure is defeated, as a card effect (before "Then you are defeated").

I am wondering where it states, or where a precedent had been establish, that a player could not win with Dying Lunge/Parting Shot or the use of Celebration, before the opponent properly defeats the friendly figure that would subsequently be defeated (if the game continued).

Here are the full rules for winning a skirmish mission. The use a bold matches RRG p25.

The RRG seems to stress "as soon as (possible)". The very last part also raises the question of whether if I Dying Lunge/Parting Shot with my last friendly figure and defeat his last figure, who "loses the game immediately, regardless of victory points"? I would argue there is a board-state where all my opponent's figures are defeated, but my last figure has not been defeated yet. This last rule indicated that you check the board-state immediately.

Not really, by that logic you could make the same argument to self-exploding probe droids too

The trigger is "At the end of the round", you either trigger Self-Destruct or you don't, and if you do then Self-Destruct resolves completely

let's say the current score is very close, ex. Imperial vs. Imperial, both of you are at 38VP, you trigger the 3pt regular Probe Droid to self-destruct and it kills a hostile 2pt regular Imperial Officer, it would not be a legal board state to say "see, the rIO died, let's not wait for the 2nd part of self-destruct to finish, I'm at 40VP I win"

14 hours ago, ricope said:

"oops hold it I'm not gonna let the 2nd part of Dying Lunge resolve, I got 40VP I win!"

5 minutes ago, ricope said:

it would not be a legal board state to say "see, the rIO died, let's not wait for the 2nd part of self-destruct to finish, I'm at 40VP I win"

I understand what you keep saying, but I am asking where does it say that in the rules or FAQ? From what I see, a player does hit 40VP and win the mission as soon as defeating a figure puts them at or over 40VP.

I can't find "let's wait for additional effects to trigger after a player hits 40VP" in the rules. I'm asking for the proper resolution reinforced by rules or rulings.

I have follow-up question regarding Dying Lunge on Dying Lunge in a similar end-game scenario but that depends on finding how to resolve this initial interaction.

Unfortunately there's no written rule that I can find that says that abilities have to finish resolving even if a player reaches 40 mid-ability. It just says the mission ends as soon as a player hits 40. There might be a Todd email response floating around somewhere that I don't know about, but the only ones I could find dealt with mission rules where players were scoring vps or figures were being defeated simultaneously, and here there is a clear order of operations in which the Dying Lunge /Parting Shot player's figure would be defeated after the other player's figure.

I'm surprised I couldn't find this question being asked through a google search since this issue has hypothetically been possible since the beginning of the game with the probe droid and then again with hired guns.

I asked FFG.

As far as I know, there should be a ruling that each mission rule is performed to the end (True Data mission), but it's possible the ruling has not surfaced.

Hey all, I recieved a response from Todd that indicates that you follow the order of operations until the point (as soon as) a player scores 40+VP. Dying Lunge and Parting Shot can interrupt to win the game.

I can upload the screenshot once it stops failing but in the meantime, here is the full text:

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Hi James,

“As soon as” is interpreted to mean that queued effects, including parts of effects and resolutions of attacks, are not required to resolve.

Another player recently asked a similar question, with the following (slightly edited) example:

A Rebel player is at 30VP while an Imperial player is at 35VP. Rebel player activates and defeats 13pt Darth Vader (Driven by Hatred). Darth Vader plays Dying Lunge and defeats a Rebel figure worth 6 points. Who wins the skirmish?

The Imperial player reaches 41 points from defeating the Rebel figure. As soon as the score increases, the game ends. Dying Lunge does not fully resolve, and Darth Vader is never defeated. The Imperial player wins 41-30.

Hope that answers your question!

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Todd Michlitsch
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]

That "Another player" was me 😁

Was slightly surprised by the ruling but it looks like it is possible. For completion I actually asked 3 scenarios, copy pasting the entire email below:

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1. Probe droid self destruct: Imperial vs. Imperial game, both players are at 38 victory points. At the end of the round, player #1's 3 point regular probe droid self-destruct and defeats player #2's 2 point regular imperial officer. Who would be the victor? The argument is being made to declare player #1 as the victor, because probe droid's self destruct defeating the enemy Imperial Officer would put him at 40VP, hence we do not wait for the 2nd part of "Then, you are defeated" to resolve The alternate argument is being made to declare player #2 as the victor, because once self-destruct has been triggered it must be resolved fully, putting the players at 40VP vs. 41VP respectively

Player #1 reaches 40 points from defeating the Imperial Officer. As soon as Player #1’s score increases, the game ends. Self-Destruct does fully resolve, and the Probe Droid is never defeated. The game ends 40-38.

2. Dying Lunge command card: Imperial vs. Rebel game, Rebel player is at 30VP while Imperial player is at 35VP. Rebel player activates and defeats 13pt Darth Vader (driven by hatred), Darth Vader plays Dying Lunge and kills a Rebel figure worth 6 points, who would be the victor? Same argument as above: is player #1 the victor because Vader's attack from Dying Lunge would put him at 41VP, ending the game _as soon as_ he's gained 40VP and hence we do not wait for the 2nd part of Dying Lunge "Then, you are defeated to resolve" or is player #2 the victor because we must resolve Dying Lunge fully, putting players at 41VP vs. 48VP respectively?

As in the first example, Vader’s Dying Lunge ends the game before he is defeated. Player #1 wins 41-30.

3. Greedo's parting shot similar scenario as above: let's say both players are at 38VP, Greedo(4pt) has suffered damage equal to his health and performs parting shot, parting shot defeats an elite stormtrooper (3pt). Who's the victor in this case? The player controlling Greedo because the game ends _as soon as_ the elite stormtrooper was defeated from parting shot, or the Imperial-faction player because parting shot must be resolved fully, thus we count the point after Greedo has been defeated from parting shot, putting the players at 41VP vs. 42VP?

The Stormtrooper is defeated “inside” of Greedo’s Parting Shot, and the game ends during Step 7 of that attack. Greedo’s player wins 41-38.

--

Todd Michlitsch
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]

Btw, it turned out to be that "as soon as" has been ruled "immediately" previously, so there is no change.

You are still resolving any mission rules that grant VP fully (giving VP to all applicable players) before checking the win conditions.

Makes sense really, from applying the exact wording of the victory point target rules.