29 minutes ago, Xelto said:

****, the forums are my long reply. I'm at work, so the short version is: make sure the community is willing to follow you before going extensively into the changes you want. Little causes more confusion than a quarter of a group heads of in a different direction, builds up a good head of steam, then finds out that the other three quarters of the group isn't following them.

Also, individual threads. Trying to follow alternate ideas, idea tweaks, and test results of nearly a dozen units in a single thread just doesn't work well.

My vote is for allowing a community-run balance/thematic set of changes. But I want to make sure there's a strong agreement for it within the community first.

I agree to your description beeing an ideal situation. However, I have a hard time seeing a community consensus on what way to go, and I'm certain I could not manage the scope and complexity that I interpret into your description.

But if you or anyone else would take the rains on getting us to that point, I will certainly get on board and help out!

(continuing the post above)

If nothing else, the voting on this page could give direction to what the community WANTS systematically documented! So I do not believe that it's better to do nothing than starting doing SOMETHING

4 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Carrion Lancers are pretty good, but they play weird due to their "can't blight engaged units".

I believe getting rid of the Carrion Lancer's "can't blight engaged units" is the clearest "fix-all" for Waiqar. But this fix also has a limitation, it can only blight if the target does not already contain any blight. This is necessary as otherwise a 13 solo Lancer army just breaks the game by blighting. This fix, with the limitation, still has been more powerful than the "can't blight engaged units" original when I've tested it.

Test report:

What I'm worried about is the 13 lancers (or a lot of them). Is it too good to have 1 lancer throw in a blight and then have several others throw a red and 2 blue for mortal wounds?

I'd like to try and break this by spamming lancers and see how it pans outs.

1 minute ago, Darth Matthew said:

What I'm worried about is the 13 lancers (or a lot of them). Is it too good to have 1 lancer throw in a blight and then have several others throw a red and 2 blue for mortal wounds?

I'd like to try and break this by spamming lancers and see how it pans outs.

Do it!

4 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Ardus is generally seen as the worst hero in the game, so he surely needs some love.

That is a lot of love. Too much love I think. Rather than modify the movement, I'd have it stun the target after it's activation.

Without some limitation, I'd take Ardus is pretty much every list. The ability to reset any units initiative to 2 is REALLY GOOD. Make it stun them(or maybe wound them?), and they have a draw back.

My two cents would be to try some points changes before anything else. I tend to think if you make anything cheap enough it can become viable. Conversely, if "OP" units are costed appropriately then there becomes more of a choice to using them.

I'd likely start with the key problem children--some of the original units and then a few key Uthuk changes. My hunches:

Ardus--(drop from 37 to 32)

Maro (drop from 40 to 34-36)

Rune Golem (drop form 17 to 15-16 for one tray). Figuring out the solo tray could help cost the larger sizes, and those are rarely seen to begin with.

Hawthorne (drop from 34 to 32-33)

Heavycrossbowmen (possible increase for the three tray to 30ish?). This one is a hunch, but too much cost efficient threat three is game warping.

Ravos (I'd leave him as is, but increase the cost of Insatiable Hunger from 3 to somewhere between 8-10 points).

Spined Threshers (one tray 19-20, two tray 32-36, four tray 58-60, six tray 85-88).

The above Spined Thresher trays are based on the forumula of a 10% discount for the two tray, roughly 25% for the four and six trays (the lancers and scions follow this paradigm).

My hunch--and again, this is all anecdotal and based on my own experience with this and other games--is that this would start to make things closer. There are always unintended consequences to changing things in a game, but these units are to me clear outliers in terms of game balance.

I also personally find points changes less distasteful than comp. Then again, this is all up to the community and not one person.

34 minutes ago, Darth Matthew said:

That is a lot of love. Too much love I think. Rather than modify the movement, I'd have it stun the target after it's activation.

Without some limitation, I'd take Ardus is pretty much every list. The ability to reset any units initiative to 2 is REALLY GOOD. Make it stun them(or maybe wound them?), and they have a draw back.

Consider that Ardus is 37p, and by using the Horn ability he is forfeiting his own attack or move. That is a 37p initiativ buff to 1 unit per turn.

I will have to try him more, and perhaps you are right but I don't think so

40 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

Consider that Ardus is 37p, and by using the Horn ability he is forfeiting his own attack or move. That is a 37p initiativ buff to 1 unit per turn.

I will have to try him more, and perhaps you are right but I don't think so

It's essentially a 37 point auto-won charge on a unit per turn. Which is pretty darned good and disruptive. And makes them feel very fast, which feels really weird for undead, thematically. I think Darth Matthew had the right idea with a stun token.

FWIW, I think taking a few tweaks to points is more likely a good idea. Except the timing tweak s. Changing Insatiable Hunger to happen after his nomming is perfect, and Scuttling before command is just enough to fix them. Exhausting would also be fine for Scuttling, come to think about it.

3 hours ago, Darth Matthew said:

That is a lot of love. Too much love I think. Rather than modify the movement, I'd have it stun the target after it's activation.

Without some limitation, I'd take Ardus is pretty much every list. The ability to reset any units initiative to 2 is REALLY GOOD. Make it stun them(or maybe wound them?), and they have a draw back.

1 hour ago, kaffis said:

It's essentially a 37 point auto-won charge on a unit per turn. Which is pretty darned good and disruptive. And makes them feel very fast, which feels really weird for undead, thematically. I think Darth Matthew had the right idea with a stun token.

FWIW, I think taking a few tweaks to points is more likely a good idea. Except the timing tweak s. Changing Insatiable Hunger to happen after his nomming is perfect, and Scuttling before command is just enough to fix them. Exhausting would also be fine for Scuttling, come to think about it.

I had a second run of thinking about this. I wanted to make sure that the targeted unit could turn and charge, which a Stun token would prevent. What I did not think about when responing to Darth Matthew was that the unit, with some planning and effort, still could turn and/or charge if it had loaded up with Inspiration. Which I must agree, now that I think about it, does reign the ability in to a better place.

I've updated the card in the post. Don't forget to vote on it now that I made the changes you suggested

On the proposed changes to Ardus:

I think that giving him something to do with his skill is the right idea. However, I think giving an inititive 2 activation to any unit with anything dialed in is too strong, even with a stun token.

The idea I had a few weeks ago when thinking about the Ardus dial problem was to give him something I think is more flavorful and interesting.

Death's Gaze: While your dial is revealed with a skill on it, any enemy unit within range 1-3 and in line of sight of Ardus must make a severity [Stable] morale test before revealing their dial.

This has the interesting effect of making units think twice about facing off with Ardus. They could end up face planting into him or not moving, or worse. Or nothing could happen. Suddenly he doesn't have to out-charge anything... he just stares them down. It's flavorful, interesting, and not too overpowered.

39 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

On the proposed changes to Ardus:

I think that giving him something to do with his skill is the right idea. However, I think giving an inititive 2 activation to any unit with anything dialed in is too strong, even with a stun token.

The idea I had a few weeks ago when thinking about the Ardus dial problem was to give him something I think is more flavorful and interesting.

Death's Gaze: While your dial is revealed with a skill on it, any enemy unit within range 1-3 and in line of sight of Ardus must make a severity [Stable] morale test before revealing their dial.

This has the interesting effect of making units think twice about facing off with Ardus. They could end up face planting into him or not moving, or worse. Or nothing could happen. Suddenly he doesn't have to out-charge anything... he just stares them down. It's flavorful, interesting, and not too overpowered.

It is an interesting idea. My question is if that ability would make you take him for 37 points and expect to win an equal amount of games as if you had picked Lord Vorun'thuul (best "benchmark" I could think of right now)? You are forfeiting attacking/marching/charging for a morale test (which Uthuk does more effective).

And with "only" range 1-3 he could still be long-charged by cavalry or picked off by archers without standing a chance.

I have to think more, but on a glance I'm not convinced it brings him back into the game on a competetive level.

An Immobilize or a Stun might be more powerful? Range 1-5 if in line of sight? Making the gaze work like Medusa/Basilisk.

Though I do think that the Horn ability is flavourful. He is commanding magically animated undead, presumably with a magic link symbolized by his Horn (why else would he have it in the official art, the skeletons don't have ears)

Maybe reduce it's range to 1-3?

40 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

My question is if that ability would make you take him for 37 points and expect to win an equal amount of games as if you had picked Lord Vorun'thuul (best "benchmark" I could think of right now)?

Yes I would.

51 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

You are forfeiting attacking/marching/charging for a morale test (which Uthuk does more effective).  

You don't usually have the option to attack/march/charge in the situation you would use this. Usually you have to eat a charge at initiative 4 or 5. Swinging will whiff. Disengaging typically means getting out charged next turn too. You want to be engaged anyway so you can swing at init 3 next round and dispatch him for the double swing. I often find myself dialing in skill defend in this situation anyway. If it could potentially help turn that engagement to my favor that would be amazing.

Yes... Uthuk does morale tests more effectively... not sure how that is relevant... Panic is still part of Waiqar's flavor as well.

I've been playing almost exclusively Ardus lists for the last 6 weeks. I'm getting a lot of value out of Host of Crows and Ardus Fury. I have gotten better at screening for him to prevent long charges getting into him. I make him hard to approach while using him to cover flanks. I've had multiple games where he demolished something bigger and costlier than him. Sure he's not as good as Vorun'Thul right now, but I don't think he needs a very big bump to make him viable. The games where he doesn't produce value are usually because he got one-shot in a charge that he just had to tank because there was nothing else he could do in that situation...

1 hour ago, Maktorius said:

Though I do think that the Horn ability is flavourful. He is commanding magically animated undead, presumably with a magic link symbolized by his Horn (why else would he have it in the official art, the skeletons don't have ears) 

I like the idea of the Horn as an artifact as you pitched it in your older thread. I think it should come with a decent cost though. Giving it to Ardus for free seems crazy to me. I think his value right now is around 34 points, so to me he's only about 3 points off the mark.

15 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Errata poll

1. Scuttling Horror timing adjustment: 4 Likes, 0 Dislikes
2. Insatiable Hunger timing adjustments: 4 Likes, 0 Dislikes
3. Spined Threshers rerolls scratched: 3 Likes, 0 Dislikes
4. Ankaur necromancy buff: 6 Likes, 0 Dislikes
5. Ardus new leader ability: 2 Likes, 0 Dislikes
6. Carrion Lancer blighting adjustment: 4 Likes, 0 Dislikes
7. Reanimate Archer gets regenerate: 6 Likes, 0 Dislikes

*Just getting this started, but I added the one test report I've written to the posts for 4 and 6 (it was the same one). If anyone else has test reports I'll add them in as well.

There's no way that a like or dislike encapsulates precisely what I think, so here goes with the closest represented answer offered at the end.

First, on what is broken and negatively impacting the game. I generally want to perform a lot of games against something and at least try to mitigate it first. Generally speaking, movement/maneuver are much more powerful in the hands of the best players who can manipulate them. That's what makes them the best players. So in general, I'm most concerned if two players of equal ability are not finding a way to deal with something. As a matter of principle, I prefer we have discussions that reach as broad of a consensus as possible about what is wrong and how much is wrong BEFORE we start proposing adjustments. One of the most important principles in this process is baby steps. We should be changing as absolutely as little as possible, making the small adjustment, and then seeing how people respond in their games. Efforts that jump the gun like this one usually do too much all at once and end up with imbalance in a completely different and unforeseen direction.

1. Scuttling Horror: Some kind of adjustment is needed. There's just too much evidence in favor. The proposal might be enough, but I'd also like to explore other options and there's been plenty of discussion in the past.

2. Insatiable Hunger timing adjustment: +1 like here. I think this is one of the most critical adjustments.

3. Spined Threshers rerolls: Dislike. Mainly because I think there are resources in-game to deal with the reroll.

4/5/6/7: Dislike for the time being. To me, these are things to look at down the road (1+ years), but not something I really want to see out of the gate.

34 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

4/5/6/7: Dislike for the time being. To me, these are things to look at down the road (1+ years), but not something I really want to see out of the gate.

Agreed. The more important focus should be on the overpowered first, then worry about people's laundry lists of wants. Trying to test too many things at once is really challenging. How are we supposed to vote stuff down? "Sad" responses? (This forum doesn't have an actual 'dislike' option.)

And personally, I've heard more people complaining about rune golems consistently over the years than anything below #3 on your list. And I would put vanilla Reanimates ahead of the undead heroes, as well.

And how do we determine if any changes decided on become official for any ongoing organized play?

12 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

Yes I would.

You don't usually have the option to attack/march/charge in the situation you would use this. Usually you have to eat a charge at initiative 4 or 5. Swinging will whiff. Disengaging typically means getting out charged next turn too. You want to be engaged anyway so you can swing at init 3 next round and dispatch him for the double swing. I often find myself dialing in skill defend in this situation anyway. If it could potentially help turn that engagement to my favor that would be amazing.

Yes... Uthuk does morale tests more effectively... not sure how that is relevant... Panic is still part of Waiqar's flavor as well.

I've been playing almost exclusively Ardus lists for the last 6 weeks. I'm getting a lot of value out of Host of Crows and Ardus Fury. I have gotten better at screening for him to prevent long charges getting into him. I make him hard to approach while using him to cover flanks. I've had multiple games where he demolished something bigger and costlier than him. Sure he's not as good as Vorun'Thul right now, but I don't think he needs a very big bump to make him viable. The games where he doesn't produce value are usually because he got one-shot in a charge that he just had to tank because there was nothing else he could do in that situation...

I like the idea of the Horn as an artifact as you pitched it in your older thread. I think it should come with a decent cost though. Giving it to Ardus for free seems crazy to me. I think his value right now is around 34 points, so to me he's only about 3 points off the mark.

I appreciate this discussion!

Let's start with what we agree upon:

1. Ardus is not up to snuff (though we differ on to what extent).
2. Ardus has potential due to his VERY early (initiative 2) Skill action that is currently unused.

What we seem to disagree upon is

3. I think that he is too hard to keep alive and contributing to the fight. He is too slow and too soft and lacks ranged abilities. He is an easy target for long and short charges as well as getting sniped by archers. His battlefield role usually becomes "Hide the points!" or "Expensive meatshield!"

If I understand you correctly, you only fear the short charge because you usually can handle the long charge and archers by screening, and you don't have trouble getting him effectively engaged and still keep him alive?

Do I understand correctly that you solve this by putting him on the flank ("using him to cover flanks") protected by an inner screener?

I would think that it's hard to screen for a unit that is on the flank, as you usually only have potential screener (who I would assume often needs to help out in the center instead of protecting the flanker)?

And when screened, how do you get Ardus in melee smoothly, doesn't his poor dial and the screener get in the way?

If so, It does seem limiting play-wise to only have 1 viable strategy for him, Keep him screened on the flank. I would also be afraid that he would be out of range to use his "Surge-Borrowing" ability when standing on the flank.

Back to our different solutions

It is of course natural that if we disagree on his weaknesses, we disagree on the solution.

What I'm thinking is that Death's Gaze still puts him in the same voulnurable and limited position. BUT in some cases (faced with a short charge) he has a better chance to survive. But I wonder what the percentage of that succeeding is, as the cards that make the enemy reform are not level 1 and they are far between and are even harder against Steadfast units (i.e. Uthuk). I can't see how this makes him more than a smudge more reliable. Though it is still far better than nothing, so I would support it 100% rather than leaving him as is.

The Horn of the Legion makes Ardus command his underlings to do the legwork on his behalf. The fact that he is forfeiting his own action in order to buff someone elses is a big drawback due to his 37p cost! But it makes him reliable, as he now becomes flexible. He has more options than standing back, waiting for an opportunity. He can engage when ready, and support while waiting, like Lord Hawthorne. Reliability and flexibility! This ability is also one of the few things that shakes up Waiqar's painful predictability.

But I have updated him on his post by reducing the range of his ability from 1-5 to 1-3 to at least incorporate that part from Quickwhit's suggestion.

with reanimates I'd rather alter cost than anything else.

with golems 14 or 15 might be enough to compensate for their slowness and randomness.

they are roadblock with benefits

4 hours ago, Xelto said:

1.Agreed. The more important focus should be on the overpowered first, then worry about people's laundry lists of wants.

2.Trying to test too many things at once is really challenging. How are we supposed to vote stuff down? "Sad" responses? (This forum doesn't have an actual 'dislike' option.)

3.And personally, I've heard more people complaining about rune golems consistently over the years than anything below #3 on your list. And I would put vanilla Reanimates ahead of the undead heroes, as well.

4.And how do we determine if any changes decided on become official for any ongoing organized play?

1. Then only vote on those ones. If you are missing anything, please post it in this thread (or another and I'll link to it)

2. Yes, Sad or confused responses are as far as I can see is what is available. I will register any of them as Dislikes.

3. In other discussions there has been different suggestions to Rune Golems. I am yet to find a solution that I like that could be a card errata. If you come up with one, please post it.

4. As of yesterday, and as far as I'm concerned @Zetan decides. If we, the community, get enough steam in this thread (or if someone comes up with AND REALIZES something better), it could be a good base for serious testing and eventually adaptation.

I'm doing what I can to help, and if @Zetan asks me to tweak it or stop it because it's disruptive, I'll do that My sole purpose of this effort is to get a balanced game, and I can't do that by my self.

40 minutes ago, Skaflok said:

with reanimates I'd rather alter cost than anything else.

I would love to have the upgrade Lingering dead included in the Reanimates. BUT, I can tell you that they get way better with the Support Carrion Lancer version posted as a suggestion in this thread. With it, they can attack AND blight (defend) at the same time!

Also, with the suggested Ankaur Maro infantry upgrade, the unit can grow! So if those two "pass", then Reanimates will be good I think

Also note that those two improvements makes Ardus' host of crows more attractive as you want those upgrades on as small Reanimate units as possible.

Something better:

Lets start with data and adjust. I’m looking at getting anTI4 style community data project going. After a 100 or so games are recorded, we will see what archetypes are pulling ahead and what needs fixing.

In the meantime, let’s start with a small number of suggestions.

1) Resequence Insatiable Hunger to end of end phase instead of start of end phase.

2) Make Scuttling Horror exhaust to shift.

I’m not inclined to do any more without some data. I think a lot of issues are perception more than actual. If you want a suggestion tested, Jukey and I can probably try it

23 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Something better:

Lets start with data and adjust. I’m looking at getting anTI4 style community data project going. After a 100 or so games are recorded, we will see what archetypes are pulling ahead and what needs fixing.

In the meantime, let’s start with a small number of suggestions.

1) Resequence Insatiable Hunger to end of end phase instead of start of end phase.

2) Make Scuttling Horror exhaust to shift.

I’m not inclined to do any more without some data. I think a lot of issues are perception more than actual. If you want a suggestion tested, Jukey and I can probably try it

I'm fully supportive of this endevour!

But do you think that Ardus and Ankaur are fine "as is"? Are they not also in a clear need of fixing?

If you add those to the list I would be happy as a fish in water

15 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

But do you think that Ardus   and Ankaur are fine "as is"? Are they not also in a clear need of fixing   ?

I think the point is they're potential underpoweredness isn't clearly warping the entire meta the way the obvious efficient Uthuk things are. So they're lower priority tasks that can wait to be addressed when we have a more level playing field overall.

Wait

Waiqar have a hero they can use effectively, now, so it's not like failing to address them now means they're forced into heroless builds. When the data shows Lord V dominating all the viable Waiqar lists, by Waiqar not being overpowered overall, we can poke at the other heroes in an environment that's telling us more subtle things than Uthuk wins a lot.

51 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

I'm fully supportive of this endevour!

But do you think that Ardus and Ankaur are fine "as is"? Are they not also in a clear need of fixing?

If you add those to the list I would be happy as a fish in water

Honestly, I think Ankaur is a perception and maybe a consistency issue. He isn’t easy to use himself. Like BaronZ, he needs to look at least a turn ahead.

But it look at his army buff. Your memory of the game would be that the crossbows/threshers you brought did awesome. That his ability enabled it isn’t what sticks foremost in memory.

But when he he gets caught flatfooted, he feels helpless. Those memories stick boldly in players heads.

So I want to see win rates and data before rendering judgement.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

In t he meantime, let’s start with a small number of suggestions.

1) Resequence Insatiable Hunger to end of end phase instead of start of end phase.

2) Make Scuttling Horror exhaust to shift.

That sort of defeats the point of scuttling horror.

The problem isn't the sideways shift. It's the ability to shift in a wide selection of directions, followed by a charge, and it's the primary issue with Fleshrippers, as well.

I still think the better solution is to have exiting terrain end your activation the same way that entering terrain does.

18 minutes ago, Xelto said:

That sort of defeats the point of scuttling horror.

The problem isn't the sideways shift. It's the ability to shift in a wide selection of directions, followed by a charge, and it's the primary issue with Fleshrippers, as well.

I still think the better solution is to have exiting terrain end your activation the same way that entering terrain does.

I think it is a game breaking card that should be banned.

25 minutes ago, Xelto said:

That sort of defeats the point of scuttling horror.

The problem isn't the sideways shift. It's the ability to shift in a wide selection of directions, followed by a charge, and it's the primary issue with Fleshrippers, as well.

I still think the better solution is to have exiting terrain end your activation the same way that entering terrain does.

Scuttle happens well before their activation, so this wouldn't help. I will continue to bang the drum for a blanket change to the terrain rules that you can only ever enter or exit terrain during your own activation. Hits scuttle nice and hard, helps slightly with Insatiable, and caps Faolan and Th'uk Tar's ability to warp the meta. Heck, Waiqar and Daqan players might start bringing something other than rocks!