16 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

• Its unethical for FFG to ban 1.0 converted ships in official tournaments because they already sold and marketed conversion kits.

How is that any less "ethical" than creating a game and then 5 years later strong-arming me into spending money to re-purchase said game?

16 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

• Its unethical for FFG to ban 1.0 converted ships in official tournaments because they already sold and marketed conversion kits.

How is that unethical? Were the conversion kits marketed as being legal in all tournament formats?

Mmmh you make a marketing issue a philosophical one and this is wrong. Your old first edition is still good as ever. You can play it with anyone who like it. Still you can surelly ask your local shop to use it in his tournament. The only question is if there would be enough people involved. Xwing was in a bad taste and people were leaving the game for the gameplay issues and some nasty continuos whining around Star Wars in general. Lucasfilms and those who were aimed are totally unaffected but the buzz has been so obnoxious that discouraged some to attend good film as Han Solo o discard SW franchise products such as Battlefront II. The truth is that the 2.0 edition give use a good ruleset and good new models. The tournament system should be considered as a world a part. And you coul have a true feeling only by May or June for the goodness of it.

Hyperspace is stupid (TM).

Also, it's not really useful to dismiss out position with " it's ok to just play what you want anyways. "

We cant play what we want anyways if the entirety of the community goes away.

Theres no 1.0 content. Theres no 1.0 player base.

The same is already happening to the extended ships.

The podcast community continues to belittle and insult people who prefer to have the existing content be playable. ( Mynock squadron is the most recent and hands down the most offensive in this regard).

Since 2.0 launched attendance in a 100 mile radius has dropped to less then half.

You people can say that extended is still fine, play what you want....but I would remind you that it's also still fine to go to work each day in a horse cart.but you dont see a whole lot of that going on.

I now feel fortunate to have a small but healthy casual meta that I can play with.

15 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

You people can say that extended is still fine, play what you want....but I would remind you that it's also still fine to go to work each day in a horse cart.but you dont see a whole lot of that going on.

As someone who often travels around Northern Indiana and Ohio, I'd say that's partially because those who use horses and buggies tend to work at home.

18 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

Since 2.0 launched attendance in a 100 mile radius has dropped to less then half.

I think this is your real issue. If you have trouble finding games, it's because there are none to be found of any format. What's Hyperspace got to do with it?

19 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

You people can say that extended is still fine, play what you want....but I would remind you that it's also still fine to go to work each day in a horse cart.but you dont see a whole lot of that going on. 

I didn't know that the most prestigious and largest of all supported vehicles were horse carts. Because the most prestigious and largest tournaments are extended. Also the most fun ones, but that's my opinion.

3 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Also, it's not really useful to dismiss out position with " it's ok to just play what you want anyways. "

And yet, for years, when I would state that Standard Is Stupid (TM) and FFG needs to get behind missions, scenarios, and campaigns, always the blow-off answer was "DIY; FFG is not in charge of your happiness."

Apparently a great solution for casual play, but not so much if you like Standard?

5 hours ago, JJ48 said:

How is that unethical? Were the conversion kits marketed as being legal in all tournament formats?

Not everything got to be spelled literally to be part of social expectations. Thus in law, for example, next to regulations we got something called principles of social coexistence.
Selling something officially called"conversion kit" definetly implies that your collection will be usable as fully legal 2.0 stuff - if FFG didn't have plans as such they should communicate it officially and clearly. And don't tell me that I can use my stuff still in casual games, because for that I didnt need Conversion Kits.

Why are people assuming that everything won't be hyperspace legal at some point?

Let's look at the Wave 3 TIE Striker. Nothing new is being added in that expansion; you can literally use the components from the kit to fly your Strikers then as you can now since it hasn't been re-released.

Even if when the ships are re-released there are 1 or more unique pilots you can still use the conversion kit contents to supply the rest of your squad with generics and/or the aces that were initially shipped.

Conversion kits mean you don't have to buy a bunch of 2.0 expansions over the life of the game, even if you can't use them in Hyperspace (for now).

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I didn't know that the most prestigious and largest of all supported vehicles were horse carts. Because the most prestigious and largest tournaments are extended. Also the most fun ones, but that's my opinion.

I wasn't aware that they had discussed the format or many details at all for the 2019 World Championships. The decision they make there will make a big difference in how the formats are seen going forward. Big themed tournaments are fun events, but I think most people will consider the format of the world championships the default competitive format.

46 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Not everything got to be spelled literally to be part of social expectations. Thus in law, for example, next to regulations we got something called principles of social coexistence.
Selling something officially called"conversion kit" definetly implies that your collection will be usable as fully legal 2.0 stuff - if FFG didn't have plans as such they should communicate it officially and clearly. And don't tell me that I can use my stuff still in casual games, because for that I didnt need Conversion Kits.

When the conversion kits were announced, there were at least three possible ways to interpret them:

1. Everything converted will be fully legal in any tournament
2. Everything converted is essentially a preview, but will be legal once officially re-released (my own reading at the time)
3. Everything converted will be legal in at least one format, and there will be multiple tournament formats

My reasoning is not "well, they didn't explicitly say 1, so technically..." but rather that all three are perfectly reasonable readings of the announcement, and there were members of the community who interpreted the announcement each way (so it wasn't like everyone assumed one thing, and then FFG pulled a bait-and-switch). Did FFG ever say anything to even imply that it was 1 rather than 2 or 3, or is this yet another case of people saying, "I wanted it to be 1 and excluded all other possibilities from my mind, so therefore FFG lied by going with another option!"

23 minutes ago, RebelProfundity said:

World Championships

I wasn't aware there are severals. But you know what there are several of? And extended? And the largest events? All at once? System opens!

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I wasn't aware there are severals. But you know what there are several of? And extended? And the largest events? All at once? System opens!

So you do definitely only expect them to name one world champion then and agree that they will need to pretty much officially pick a favored format at some point? No need for both an Extended and Hyperspace Championship game?

I suppose it's a possibility, but yeah there will probably be a single one decided on at some point.

I think we all suspect that the answer will be Hyperspace format .

41 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

When the conversion kits were announced, there were at least three possible ways to interpret them:

1. Everything converted will be fully legal in any tournament
2. Everything converted is essentially a preview, but will be legal once officially re-released (my own reading at the time)
3. Everything converted will be legal in at least one format, and there will be multiple tournament formats

My reasoning is not "well, they didn't explicitly say 1, so technically..." but rather that all three are perfectly reasonable readings of the announcement, and there were members of the community who interpreted the announcement each way (so it wasn't like everyone assumed one thing, and then FFG pulled a bait-and-switch). Did FFG ever say anything to even imply that it was 1 rather than 2 or 3, or is this yet another case of people saying, "I wanted it to be 1 and excluded all other possibilities from my mind, so therefore FFG lied by going with another option!"

Don't overcomplicate things where there is nothing to complicate. I don't care what could be interpreted out of announcement of Conversion Kits at the time. Most logical expectation is as the name suggests - conversion kit into 2nd edition. FFG should be transparent and tell upfront that Conversion Kits' content won't be fully tournament legal.

As it stands their actions look scammy. They left some things unclear to easily sell product to excited customers, only to announce few months later that their new converted toys won't be usable in one of the most common rank of X-Wing tournaments i.e - Regionals.

Cynical side of me thinks that it was all pre-planned by FFG. They just couldn't risk telling people upfront that they will have to collect the game from scratch (that would kill their established fanbase). Thus they introduced Conversion Kits - this way they could deceive long-time players that their collections will be still usable, only to announce a few months later that indeed you have to collect everything from scratch.

FFG well and trully surprassed GW when it comes to skill of skinning their customers.

1 minute ago, Embir82 said:

Don't overcomplicate things where there is nothing to complicate. I don't care what could be interpreted out of announcement of Conversion Kits at the time. Most logical expectation is as the name suggests - conversion kit into 2nd edition. FFG should be transparent and tell upfront that Conversion Kits' content won't be fully tournament legal.

As it stands their actions look scammy. They left some things unclear to easily sell product to excited customers, only to announce few months later that their new converted toys won't be usable in one of the most common rank of X-Wing tournaments i.e - Regionals.

Cynical side of me thinks that it was all pre-planned by FFG. They just couldn't risk telling people upfront that they will have to collect the game from scratch (that would kill their established fanbase). Thus they introduced Conversion Kits - this way they could deceive long-time players that their collections will be still usable, only to announce a few months later that indeed you have to collect everything from scratch.

FFG well and trully surprassed GW when it comes to skill of skinning their customers.

To be fair people with conversion kits dont need to rebuild from scratch. Every hyperspace ship save the lando falcon is in conversion kit.

1 minute ago, Embir82 said:

Don't overcomplicate things where there is nothing to complicate. I don't care what could be interpreted out of announcement of Conversion Kits at the time. Most logical expectation is as the name suggests - conversion kit into 2nd edition. FFG should be transparent and tell upfront that Conversion Kits' content won't be fully tournament legal.

As it stands their actions look scammy. They left some things unclear to easily sell product to excited customers, only to announce few months later that their new converted toys won't be usable in one of the most common rank of X-Wing tournaments i.e - Regionals.

Cynical side of me thinks that it was all pre-planned by FFG. They just couldn't risk telling people upfront that they will have to collect the game from scratch (that would kill their established fanbase). Thus they introduced Conversion Kits - this way they could deceive long-time players that their collections will be still usable, only to announce a few months later that indeed you have to collect everything from scratch.

FFG well and trully surprassed GW when it comes to skill of skinning their customers.

To be fair people with conversion kits dont need to rebuild from scratch. Every hyperspace ship save the lando falcon is in conversion kit.

1 minute ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

To be fair people with conversion kits dont need to rebuild from scratch. Every hyperspace ship save the lando falcon is in conversion kit.

You forget about Resistance A-Wing... and Scum TIE. Oh and new factions are coming - with completely new toys.

10 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Don't overcomplicate things where there is nothing to complicate. I don't care what could be interpreted out of announcement of Conversion Kits at the time. Most logical expectation is as the name suggests - conversion kit into 2nd edition. FFG should be transparent and tell upfront that Conversion Kits' content won't be fully tournament legal.

Again, that's how you interpreted it, whereas some of us interpreted it differently. So either all of us who thought they meant something different are illogical, or else it wasn't quite so straightforward and clear-cut as you want to think. Simply repeating that your interpretation is the most logical doesn't make it so.

12 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

You forget about Resistance A-Wing... and Scum TIE. Oh and new factions are coming - with completely new toys.

Well yeah new factions means new ships you dont have. but it's not like the 5 original factions dont have conversion kit ships for hyperspace. Dont wanna rebuild? Dont buy new faction. Play old.

24 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Again, that's how you interpreted it, whereas some of us interpreted it differently. So either all of us who thought they meant something different are illogical, or else it wasn't quite so straightforward and clear-cut as you want to think. Simply repeating that your interpretation is the most logical doesn't make it so.

This is excerpt from FFG's article from May 2018 regarding tournament play in 2.0:

Quote

The X-Wing Organized Play experience you know and love will continue and grow, enhanced by the innovations and focus of the second edition.

Thanks to the conversion kits, all but six ships from first edition will be available for X-Wing Second Edition play immediately upon release. Then, as we revealed in the announcement of X-Wing Second Edition, those six First Order and Resistance ships will be reintroduced to the game with the second wave of ship expansions—when the First Order and Resistance arrive as their own complete factions!

This means the game and its Organized Play will continue to support the same rich variety of squad builds, even as the updated second edition ruleset and ship designs emphasize the game's maneuvering and dogfighting.

So, yeah my interpretation was the most logical.

Also don't make a strawman - I didn't say everyone who thinks differently is illogical.

2 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

This is excerpt from FFG's article from May 2018 regarding tournament play in 2.0:

So, yeah my interpretation was the most logical.

Ok, this excerpt would have disproved my assumption that conversion kits wouldn't be tournament legal, but it still doesn't show why you automatically rule out multiple formats.

4 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Also don't make a strawman - I didn't say everyone who thinks differently is illogical.

Never said you did. But it is the logical inference drawn from your mindless repetition that your interpretation is "most logical".

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Ok, this excerpt would have disproved my assumption that conversion kits wouldn't be tournament legal, but it still doesn't show why you automatically rule out multiple formats.

Well, given the fact that most common and popular competitive level of X-Wing events (Regionals) will be played using Hyperspace format, and taking into account aforementioned FFG's quote it looks like old players were blatantly deceived into thinking that buying Conversion Kits will made them able to participate in tournament play. Because let's face it - bread'n'butter tournament level play won't support conversion kits, and things like that should be communicated by FFG upfront.

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Never said you did. But it is the logical inference drawn from your mindless repetition that your interpretation is "most logical".

The fact that I said something twice doesn't automatically means that I think all who disagree are illogical. Talking about "mindless".

1 hour ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

To be fair people with conversion kits dont need to rebuild from scratch. Every hyperspace ship save the lando falcon is in conversion kit.

By FFG banning most of the ships from the conversions, there is a massive economic incentive for FFG to create 'new' OP ships especially in the new factions. Just look at Empire compared to all the other factions regarding power level in hyperspace format. Banning the ships creates player motivation to go out and buy power in the new factions especially since power has been stripped from the existing factions (Empire is a classic example).

I can tell you, I would never have purchased the conversion kits if I knew ahead of time that most of my collection would be banned in hyperspace. I tend to think there are many veterans in the same position. I certainly feel like I have been screwed over by FFG on this one. Seems like many of us here feel that way which is ultimately bad for business. There just aren't enough new players to fill the shoes of the screwed over old players.

And that is where the podcasts are getting it wrong. Instead of making fun of those of us that feel like FFG took advantage of us, they should really sympathise with the community. Maybe take a stand for once against FFG instead of being their White Knights. Try to change the poor decisions being made. And actually try to grow the community. Otherwise, x-wing 2.0 will be another failed game. Or those who are laughing, will be laughing by themselves.

3 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Well, given the fact that most common and popular competitive level of X-Wing events (Regionals) will be played using Hyperspace format, and taking into account aforementioned FFG's quote it looks like old players were blatantly deceived into thinking that buying Conversion Kits will made them able to participate in tournament play. Because let's face it - bread'n'butter tournament level play won't support conversion kits, and things like that should be communicated by FFG upfront.

Well, which tournaments are most popular and whatnot is something I can't really speak to, but you seem to be mixing two different arguments here.

1. Did the announcements reflect what we currently see?
I maintain that with the further talk, both within that article and in the general 2.0 announcement article, of alternate formats (as well as the existence of both Hyperspace and Extended events), they do.

2. If not, is it because of active deception, or something less sinister? e.g. a decision to change due to changing circumstances, or a mistake on the part of someone.
Even if I'm wrong about 1, I don't see why we should assume malice on the part of FFG.

10 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

The fact that I said something twice doesn't automatically means that I think all who disagree are illogical. Talking about "mindless".

You claimed that your conclusion was the most logical.
Therefore, the other conclusions are not the most logical.
Therefore, those who have reached the other conclusions have not followed the path of best logic.
Therefore, those who have reached the other conclusions are, to some extent or another, been illogical.

Where this could break down is if others reached other conclusions, not because of bad logic, but because of different starting assumptions that logically led them to a different end point. However, the claim that there is only one "most logical" interpretation precludes this possibility.

Why is it that with FFG's statements, you don't mind reading them and then drawing conclusions, but with your own statements, there should be no inference; only what was explicitly stated?