17 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Epic has always been an alternate format. The whole "Epic" icon and separation from the standard game. It's a shame that Epic has not been supported, but it's not like Epic is a standard ship release that's been banned.

No ship has been banned; some might not be playable in Hyperspace.

Ne'ertheless, the "I bought a CK and I want its full value" argument is still flaccid. Extended fans can still pay XWM just fine. They just won't be playing at certain events, however.

So if the rules of Hyperspace make you fell like Extended has become an "Alternate Format," well. . .give Epic a try. We're used to that.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Extended fans can still pay XWM just fine. They just won't be playing at certain events, however...

Weak. You could just as easily (and just as accurately) say that Hyperspace fans won't be playing at certain events.

They're BOTH "alternate formats", and they're not the only alternate formats either.

Over time, however, Hyperspace is going to resemble Extended more and more. Eventually (and probably a lot sooner than some appear to think) there's going to be no practical difference.

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Over time, however, Hyperspace is going to resemble Extended more and more.  Eventually (and probably a lot sooner than some appear to think) there's going to be no practical difference.

We don't know that. I see it written and hear it on podcasts, but I am pretty sure we don't actually know.

It assumes that ships are NOT rotated out - again an idea that's floating around, again something we don't know.

Maybe you do know it from somewhere?

15 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

No ship has been banned; some might not be playable in Hyperspace.

Ne'ertheless, the "I bought a CK and I want its full value" argument is still flaccid. Extended fans can still pay XWM just fine. They just won't be playing at certain events, however.

So if the rules of Hyperspace make you fell like Extended has become an "Alternate Format," well. . .give Epic a try. We're used to that.

Yes, they are banned from Hyperspace format. I think this division in the X-Wing community will be much more damaging than the Epic split, as Hyperspace and Extended are both supported FFG tournament formats.

40 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

We don't know that. I see it written and hear it on podcasts, but I am pretty sure we don't actually know.

It assumes that ships are NOT rotated out - again an idea that's floating around, again something we don't know.

Maybe you do know it from somewhere?

There will be more releases. We know may for a fact. The existing first edition ships will be re-released. We know that for a fact.

The more ships released or re-released, the closer Hyperspace will come to resembling (or more likely, surpassing) the current extended. This is also a fact.

Ship rotation is speculation. It is not a fact.

Occam's Razor it.

47 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Over time, however, Hyperspace is going to resemble Extended more and more. Eventually (and probably a lot sooner than some appear to think) there's going to be no practical difference.

Then what's everyone arguing about?

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

The more ships released or re-released, the closer Hyperspace will come to resembling (or more likely, surpassing) the current extended. This is also a fact.

Not that I think you're wrong, but it seems difficult to conclude decisively that Hyperspace will always include every released ship. I think this is precisely the claim GreenDragoon wanted sourced.

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Occam's Razor it.

Pure speculation then.

I have another speculation for you: FFG is undecided. If two formats work well, rotation might be an option. If it doesn't work out, Hyperspace might turn into Extended at some point.

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Pure speculation then.

😂 No, suggesting there'll be some kind of rotation is pure speculation. Saying that new releases and re-released will be legal for play is established fact.

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Pure speculation then.

I have another speculation for you: FFG is undecided. If two formats work well, rotation might be an option. If it doesn't work out, Hyperspace might turn into Extended at some point.

Well I agree FFG is undecided and that this is just an experiment (that will go horribly wrong). Well we do have the Custom format creation tool on the app. Maybe the community should step in and make their own competitive custom format.

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

😂 No, suggesting there'll be some kind of rotation is pure speculation.

Just to emphasize: I don't say there will be rotation, I always mention it is speculation and stress that we don't know.

4 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Saying that new releases and re-released will be legal for play is established fact.

Legal for play sure. But automatically Hyperspace legal? How do you know that?

17 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Not that I think you're wrong, but it seems difficult to conclude decisively that Hyperspace will always include every released ship. I think this is precisely the claim GreenDragoon wanted sourced.

The "source" is the physical evidence - all currently released and re-released ships are legal for Hyperspace.

Suggesting that there may be some kind of rotation in play in the future is what needs a source. Burden of proof and all that.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Legal for play sure. But automatically Hyperspace legal? How do you know that?

Because that's what's happening at the moment. And it's what's happened since the game started. Unless you can provide proof to the contrary, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that will change.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Legal for play sure. But automatically Hyperspace legal? How do you know that?

He's not saying it's certain or automatic. He's saying that it's the way it's been for 95%+ of the game, so any burden of proof for it going the other way falls on those making that claim.

I have absolutely no dog in this fight -- I have not yet formed any educated opinions about Hyperspace -- but c'mon, man. You know what Occam's Razor is.

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

Because that's what's happening at the moment. And it's what's happened since the game started. Unless you can provide proof to the contrary, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that will change.

Just a counter point. The Scum Z-95. Being released in the next few months and unlike the Striker is not Hyperspace legal.

I mean I’m not opposed to the idea of a rotation limited format competitive setting.

My issue is purely with the number of ships available per faction. Yes, yes, Resistance and FO have only 4 ships each. I get that. But only 4 ships, and particularly the four ships available for my preferred faction, is rough. Especially since Scum kept all their best stuff, and Resistance and FO seem to have some top tier ships.

Its not the format, it’s how the Empire is drastically weaker and has the less ability to combat the top tier.

Now if points adjustments come out and reign in the I5-6 protorp Alpha, Boba with Han, and a few other components? Maybe a different story. If initiative cost goes up a bit so genetics have more of a place? We can talk.

But let’s face it, Triple Striker aces with fiend may be fun, but against protorps it is a tough road to hoe. You misjudge the initial engagement by a few MM and you’re toast.

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

Because that's what's happening at the moment. And it's what's happened since the game started. Unless you can provide proof to the contrary, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that will change.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

He's not saying it's certain or automatic. He's saying that it's the way it's been for 95%+ of the game, so any burden of proof for it going the other way falls on those making that claim.

I have absolutely no dog in this fight -- I have not yet formed any educated opinions about Hyperspace -- but c'mon, man. You know what Occam's Razor is.

I think it's fair to dismiss most of that experience because we had not two formats then. So all the experience we do have is only valid starting with 2.0, or more stricter since we have hyperspace. Everything else is a tricky fallacy.

Plus, @Hiemfire's good example of the Z95.

If we take a more in-depth look, as of today:

• Hyperspace-legal ships: 21
• Hyperspace legal ships that were rereleased: 14 (2/3)
• Hyperspace legal ships that were not re-released: 7 (2x Falcon, Striker, MG100, Silencer, SF, Upsilon)
• Re-released ships that are not hyperspace legal: so far 0

But wave 3 will (probably) have:

• Hyperspace-legal ships: 26
• Hyperspace legal ships that were rereleased: 14 +striker, maybe + ARC170, maybe +Silencer?
• Hyperspace legal ships that were not re-released: 7 (2x Falcon, Striker, MG100, Silencer, SF, Upsilon) -1, maybe -2
• Re-released ships that are not hyperspace legal: so far 0 +1, the Z95

That shows that rerelease is not necessary for Hyperspace legality, and Hyperspace legality is not guaranteed for rerelease - from what we currently know.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Over time, however, Hyperspace is going to resemble Extended more and more. Eventually (and probably a lot sooner than some appear to think) there's going to be no practical difference.

Nah they'll rotate plenty out of Hyperspace

22 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Just to emphasize: I don't say there will be rotation, I always mention it is speculation and stress that we don't know.

Legal for play sure. But automatically Hyperspace legal? How do you know that?

The word "rotation" was mentioned in one of FFG's news article. Now of course there has been several inaccuracies between FFG news articles and the actual game in 1st edition. Me personally I hope we don't have to deal with any "rotational" BS. Rotations are for card games not miniature games. If you want a rotation ensure the model stays in play but swap out the pilot cards, just remember to leave one pilot for the ship.

Because to not let new releases be tournament legal on release would be a stupider (both game-play and business wise) decision than telling you that your 1st edition ships are not playable. Now if they are released on the day of said tournament sure have a little "break-in" period of maybe a week or two just to give every player the opportunity to purchase the expansion. But that should be the extent before they are added into competitive format.

58 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Then what's everyone arguing about?

55 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

it seems difficult to conclude decisively that Hyperspace will always include every released ship.

Wait. . .did you just answer your own question?

21 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

it is a tough road to hoe.

And why are you farming in the street?

31 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

You know what Occam's Razor is.

You bet. And it is going to revolutionize the way men shave.

... You really don't think the Z-95 will be Hyperspace legal? Pretty sure it will be. (Why is it not, now, when the Striker is? My guess would just be numbers parity.)

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

You bet. And it is going to revolutionize the way men shave.

That's what they told me about my Headblade. I used it twice and shelved it.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

... You really don't think the Z-95 will be Hyperspace legal? Pretty sure it will be. (Why is it not, now, when the Striker is? My guess would just be numbers parity.)

It isn't at the moment. That may change, but at the moment it exists as a counterpoint thanks to the inclusion of the Striker. We'll see what happens.

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

... You really don't think the Z-95 will be Hyperspace legal? Pretty sure it will be. (Why is it not, now, when the Striker is? My guess would just be numbers parity.)

That's a good and reasonable guess. Would also mean that the Z95 won't be hyperspace legal in wave 3. It's also interesting to not that Republic and CIS have even fewer ships (announced) than Resistance/FO. Based on that, I'd guess that wave 4 sees more of the 4 new factions. Which would mean that Z95 is still not hyperspace legal for wave 4. At that point it is a really relevant point if your argument is "because that's what we've seen so far".

As with the other ones: time will tell.

"Rotations are for card games not miniature games." Interesting I noticed on the updates for new releases that all X-wing 2ed is now listed under the card and board game area rather than the miniatures area.