Both are worth a try and might be meta/expected opposing player dependant.

8 minutes ago, arctic_rogue said:

Both are worth a try and might be meta/expected opposing player dependant.

I agree.

But I think I will give the version 2.1 another go. It is still legal, now simply at 200pts. Maybe the I3 is still useful after all. It mainly was good because of all the scum ships at that level, and we'll have to wait and see whether that changes.

Good times to play 5 Awings, maybe even until July. If I continue at that rate, I'll end at around 200 games xD. By then I should know.

Vassal Game 3.2.19:

4+1 v2.1
vs
SoontirValenSaiOGP

Lost. I completely messed up my approach. I was very tired from an icehockey game right before, I probably shouldn't have played that game at all. He also flew the approach beautifully.

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: I wasn't sure. Sai adds a huge amount of action efficiency: coordinate OGP, who coordinates Sai, who takes a focus+lock. So I hesitantly settled on Sai, as he additionally carries Palp. But I also had Soontir in mind for if I'd get an opportunity.

Deployment : I went with the usual: finger four in SE corner, rocks in a flat triangle from NE field to N field. He setup in the NW corner.

The gameplan for the first turns: I wanted to try the move into the box. In hindsight, that was a really stupid decision because it made no sense. I kinda wanted to slow roll, but also wanted to be ready in case he went fast? Which he obviously wouldn't with the way he was set up.

How it went:

Turn 1/2: I did 4straight/2straight. He stopped with the lowI ships and went fast with Soontir to setup a flank.
Turn 3 is where I lost: I went into the box, with 3hards + boost with the back 3 ships, and setup my own flank with Lulo. It is already obvious from the image that the timing will be completely wrong, and the generics moved way too far north, which is in part the problem of the 3 hard and in part that I went way too fast. What I should have done is to keep going straight: 5s, 5k (yes, it fits. I tested after the game, but I know it should anyway) and then decide either to go back the same way, or turn hard 2 in. Imagine how horribly he would have been out of position already with what you can see in the image.
Turn 4: He went 1bank, something I should have expected, but completely took me by surprise. The two in the back did 2 hards right+boost left, giving them no shots. The nr3 did a 2hard left, and nr4 did a 3 bank right (?!?!). That 3bank just bumped, and of course he got obliterated right then and there. Lulo went 4s and boosted left.
Turn 5: the 2 shuttles banked/turned south (right side of image) while Valen circled around that rock and Soontir did a 4straight onto that big central rock (also ?!?!). I didn't lose a ship that turn. Now I had to kite the OGP with nr3 along the southern edge.
Turn 6: Lulo went fast and greedy after the shuttles. Nr 1 and 2 set their arcs wide to catch Soontir. Lulo started to burn (down to 1h) and so did the OGP.

But the game was over already. I had missed my window - or rather, I never opened one. I felt a bit bad because this could have been an interesting game, I just didn't give him that game.

Lessons/Conclusion:

• Re-evaluate your approach: is it still feasible?
• Be patient.

Image: Turn 3 where I had already set the course for my loss.

Vassal Game 3.2.19:

4+1 v2.1
vs
WedgeGavinBraylen

That was interesting. Gavin is quite useful, and he got a ridiculous amount of crits. Luckily A-wings have just 2 hull... In my opinion, he made many mistakes. It was the first time he tried to play this list, and it showed. I do not want to badmouth him in any way, I rather think that this game has several interesting lessons to be taken.

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: His list deals a lot of crits: Two proton torps that I can't allow to be shot, but going to range 1 will have the exact same threat including the crit. My overall plan has to be to block and prevent mods. Wedge reduces my agility and moves after Lulo, so he is the prime target. Gavin is most expensive, so he's next. And Braylen... in hindsight, I'm thinking that I was actually completely wrong. Braylen is the ship that consistently gets double mods, unlike the other two. The AdvSensor gives him the ability to take red moves into focus+rerolls; he can also focus+roll to get the same. And even a K-turn/T-roll will give him double mods. In the end the target priority is a tough choice here. One important point to realize is that Gavin is almost exactly 1.5x the cost of a generic.

Deployment : Standard finger four in the SW corner. My rocks were starting with this triangle, but i placed the third in line with the previous two. I set Lulo into the opposite corner, not belieing him that he'd just go straight at my A-wings. But as soon as he set down Wedge I knew that he indeed would, because turning around with Wedge in the middle is annoying.

The gameplan for the first turns: Range control! His fastest on a B-wing is 3, Wedge 4, and E-wing 5. I don't believe that he'll pull them apart (if so, he'd have to setup the opposite way, with Gavin outside!). The rule of 11 says that you get a shot if you move 11, while you need to go 18 to land a block.

Two cases to consider:

• if he goes 3, and I go 5, that makes 10 total. Still safe, but a 4s would allow him to fire torps, and the two torp carriers can go 4. So I did not want to risk that and went 4 only.
  • second turn, I go 5 (subtotal 16) and he can't escape the block unless he tries some kturn shenanigans.
  • With my choice of 4 straight however, I'd have to go 4+boost to block.
• If he goes slow and I take the 4, we end up at 7, and that would be a problem.
  • second turn, if I go 5s + boost, I can jump far, but not far enough. 5+boost is 8 total, plus his slowest is 2 total. That goes to 17 and right range1, but not a block! He could or should have known that he just has to move 1 in that case.

In the end I went 4. That put us at 7 total (4+1 + 1+1), and meant I couldn't

How it went:

Turn 1: As you can guess, I included the "if he goes slow" above because that's what he did. I started with the 4s and - to my surprise - he went 1s. His mistake 1: He didn't use the E-wing's ability to lock an Awing. My mistake 1: I should have done a 3s + boost for nr3 and 4 to get them some more. All my calculations are only true for nr1, not the others as they started further back.
Turn 2: And as mentioned, I had to go very fast or abort. I went very fast, and to my luck he did not calculate anything. His mistake 2: He just went 2 straight, and that bumps at least the B-wing. His mistake 3: He didn't advS focus with Braylen. His mistake 4: He rolled Gavin closer to the Bwing. He should have had focus+lock, but ended up with no modification. Anyway, he completely destroyed nr3, but I got Wedge down to 1hull, too. That with Wedge is entirely expected by the way. I have 76% chance to deal 5 damage, and that does not include the range 1 die. If you remember on page 2 where I made the calculations. A small point to add: Wedge took a lock (IMO his mistake 5 ) and got 4 hits spending the lock, and his Bwing just rolled natties, Gavin rolled average. His red dice were hot!
Turn 3: Nr 1+2 went 3 straight (had to because a 2s would bump nr2 into the Bwing), and nr4 went slow. All took focus and turned the arc. He just Kturned with Gavin and Wedge, and t-rolled with Braylen. That left him with unmodded Wedge+Gavin, and rerolls for Braylen. By now Lulo arrived, and he got a stressed r2 shot into Gavin, plinking off a shield (which is expected!) My reasoning was that the generics for sure can deal a single damage into Wedge, so I took the more greedy shot into Gavin. His Bwing rolled again natties (not needing the focus or reroll, so we'd expect him to get 4hits anyway!) and that removed nr2. My first return shot took out Wedge, my second took two more shields from Gavin. At this point it looked much worse for me than it was: 105-78. I still have 3 ships over his 2, and am in a great position with Lulo, plus Gavin is on half points already!
Turn 4: Nr4 turned around the rock, nr1 did a 2hard and boosted left to the edge to get a shot. He did another mistake with Gavin and just went after them by 3bank + boost straight. I just saw that in the log, he accidentally cheated as he would have remained stressed. He had a blue 2bank though, so it wouldn't matter. His mistake 6: to boost+lock when he knows that Lulo will be behind him. Lulo took the stressed R1 shot. I had enough distance to the rest, so could reroll lonewolf into a 4th hit. He rolled evade-focus-blank and Gavin died. The game was over at this point, 2 generics+Lulo vs Braylen is not a fair fight. Heck, Lulo vs Braylen would not be too fair of a fight.
Turn 5: he intentionally flew out of the board with Braylen, thanked for the game and left.

I also want to highlight some more mistakes of myself. The way I threw Lulo in there was very stupid of me. It paid off, but all it needed was for Wedge, Gavin and Braylen to sling proton torps at him. He could have 2harded and intercept Lulo. Wedge can TL, then get a 4dice against 1 (!) with guaranteed 2 crits (!!). Gavin, too, can throw a torpedo, and then Braylen can finish Lulo off if necessary. I got lucky that he didn't, but it was extremely reckless of me to use that approach vector. I'd rather have come in more from the middle instead.

Lessons/Conclusion:

This game was a lesson on range control. And it was interesting on dice variability: He had +4.5 hits/crits, and -6 evades. I had perfectly average dice with 8+3 hits+crits rolled on 8.25 +2.75 expected, and 7 evades on 7.5 expected.
I still don't know whether my target priority was right. I expect to take out both Braylen and Wedge in almost 1 turn. The main reason I went for Wedge is because I got more shots on him. The reason I went for Gavin next is because he didn't take a focus action.

Lesson : Careful what you calculate for! Ships in the back have more distance!

The rest are based on his game:

• Don't take the greedy action (lock) but invest a bit into your defense;
• Don't take pointless actions (the b-roll for Gavin);
• Know your list (E-wing ability, Braylen ability, AdvS Braylen).

These are points that are important to keep in mind while playing.

After turn 1:

After turn 2: my nr3 is gone, and Wedge is down to 1 hull. Lulo will be in the fight next turn.

Details filled in. I want to stress again that I do not want to put my opponent in the second game down in any way. But it is an example of those games where the dice are blamed when instead there are other mistakes that should be highlighted first.

And completely unrelated: I just looked through some list fortress stuff.

The Phoenix SO hyperspace had 2 or 3 mass Awing lists. One is 5x Greens+Heroic+Crackshot+Optics, one is Lulo+4, and one is a phat-ish Nien + 3. They all placed very high, places 11,13 and 14 out of 115!
Then there's a 5/14, and a 3/12.

I'll have a tournament myself next Sunday, and one two weeks after on the 23rd. Fingers crossed!

I’ve been flying a similar list for a while.

Snap w/ Composure, S-Foils

Bastian w/ S-Foils

3x Blue Squad Recruit

Edit: 199/200

Would you consider this @GreenDragoon ? Other thoughts?

3 minutes ago, TriggerHappyTaco said:

I’ve been flying a similar list for a while.

Snap w/ Composure, S-Foils

Bastian w/ S-Foils

3x Blue Squad Recruit

At 3 or more A-wings, I really really want them to have Optics. I don't quite get why so many good players use massed Awings without optics. But they do, and chances pretty high are that I am wrong, not them.

Hey Greendragon, how do you put pictures in the posts?

Have a bat rep of a tourney I would like to put up, and remembered to take some pics 🙂 ,but do not know how to put them in the posts.

Tournament 10.2.19, Game 1

4+1 v2.1
vs
VynderJendonZertikSeyn

What a strange list! I had no clue what to do. Unfortunately we only played 7 turns, and only 4 turns with combat. That was not enough for me to do something.

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: Vynder does his proton torp and has 3 agility. Hurting him will be difficult. Seyn is a tricky beast: if she rolls a crit, or if she has bullseye, she can cancel one crit to deal a face down. And Krennic's prototype can cancel the other result (or if it wasn't a crit) to remove a shield or flip a card. It only works with Krennic first, but it's 50% of a ship from me, and that hurts badly! Zertik can flip Seyn's dealt card up, so I might evade everything and still lose a ship per turn. And then there's Jendon who makes sure that they have locks in the beginning,and who coordinates actions around. So in short, every ship except Zertik is a priority. Seyn has 4 agility, Vynder has 7hp behind 2-3 and Jendon has 10 hp. So again, which is the easiest for me? I don't know, it depends.

In the end I decided to approach cautiously and take one of the three, depending on what I can get best.

Deployment : See the images. There was no place I wanted to fight. Maybe I can drag them through the rocks?

The gameplan for the first turns: Go up my side, and see what I can bait with Lulo.

How it went:

Turn 1-3 (23min): maneuvering. Vynder took the bait but in the turn where he activated Jendon, he got actually too close and couldn't lock Lulo...
Turn 4 (20min): I saw that I could block Zertik+Seyn with a 5s+boost. My alternative action for the blocker was to turn away and circle around the middle rock. I decided on the block. However, Jendon has advanced sensors and so onyl Seyn ended up blocked. My awing took a torpedo and two more shots and died gloriously.
Turn 5 (13min): here I messed up even more. I changed a maneuver but didn't adjust the guy furthest back (I thought he was going left with a bank..), so I bumped my ship.
Turn 6 (22min): Managed to remove Vynder, whose 2nd torpedo barely did anything. But I also messed up big time, the worst of the game: I rolled Lulo into Jendon's rear arc (?!), removing my lone wolf (?!?!) which was my only mod. I don't know why. I gave up half points here on Lulo.
Turn 7: A bit risk here (no image), went close with 2 in hot pursuit of Jendon, one to keep arc on Seyn. I got the last damage into Seyn, but not 3 into Jendon. Two Awings can only do 2 against a reinforced shuttle, and Lulo.... Just a single damage on Jendon decided the game in the end. 81-76.

Lessons/Conclusion :

Don't mess up in the first game? That I had the one bad list against his direct damage combo? That I needed another turn?

I think the first one: don't throw an anyways hard game.

Setup:

Turn 3: ready for the fight.

Turn 4: first combat phase, -1 blocker

Turn 5: doh...

Turn 6: just shoot me. There was absolutely no reason not to roll the other way. It would have fit past the rock, and I would have dodged Jendon's arc, and I would have had Lone Wolf.

Tournament 10.2.19 Game 2

4+1 v2.1
vs
new DreaSwarm

Second game against my team mate. We had discussed the list before, and one of those Z was actually mine.

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: Drea helps the whole list, so she goes first. The Y-wings are surprisingly good with their damage output, so them next. Z95s if I get several great shots.

Deployment : See image. He had to deploy first, and that one Z turned west told me he wouldn't turn left immediately.

The gameplan for the first turns: Go fast, try to get behind the swarm and make turning around costly.

How it went: Very good for me.

Turn 1-3 (22min but more ships and incl a combat round) was my approach. That lonesome rock in the NE field slowed my 1+2 a bit down, but it was still pretty good. I think he underestimated the speed as I dodged all his arcs (except Drea) and got some free damage in. Lulo was a bit behind, but that was ok to play it safe.
Turn 4: actual combat, but making sure to dodge arcs again. That meant I only got shots on a Z, but I prefer that over not dodging at all. His reckless turn instead of just a bank took me a bit by surprise. And this time I underestimated his damage output. That meant we traded a Z vs an A, but he took some more on Drea. Pretty even on points, but I was ahead on position I think.
Turn 5: Again trying to dodge arcs, I think it mostly worked. Lulo bit into Drea, and after that the game was mostly over I think.
Turn 6-9: I ran away, only taking shots that I wanted. And almost managed to throw the game by losing Lulo, and he got a nice block off, but it wasn't enough to claw back.

137-81

Lessons/Conclusion :

• Y-wings with dorsal+VTG is great!
• Dodge those arcs!

Images (klick to enlarge):

Setup

Turn 1-3: approach

Turn 4: first real combat phase.

Turn 5: keep dodging those arcs

Turn 6-8: run run run

k-turn by Y-wings, and I didn't expect the block at all.

Tournament 10.2.19 Game 3

4+1 v2.1
vs
NorraHortonDutchEvaan

Another headache-inducing list! Norra and Evaan are ok to keep apart, but Dutch and Horton? yeah...

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: Very transparent: ion, get close, blast away. If I can stay out of R1, then Norra is good to remove first. Otherwise I'm also afraid of Horton: that APT is reallly bad! I think I can handle the ion torpedoes and that dorsal turret much better. Don't get ionized!

Deployment : See image. I did my rocks in the top to the eastern side, and setup east. He set up right in front - and I don't want that joust!

The gameplan for the first turns: Run! Drag him through the rocks, force the formation to break, stay at range 3 if anything. Plink away from afar.

How it went:
Turn 1 and 2 can be seen on the images. I didn't have much time after. For turn 3 I went 5 straight with 3+4, and 3bank+1bank with 1+2. Lulo already turned in ( mistake! ) towards SE and dealt some first free damage on Norra. I could have boosted but didn't dare to do so in case I got into range 2 and misjudged the distance.
Turn 4: A-wings are still cowards, team 3+4 goes ahead, 1+2 turns in 1hard and readies the flank. Lulo had to turn left towards NE, but it wasn't enough to get out of r2. He got hit by an ion, so no more shots. The Ywings went just forward again.
Turn 5: Three of the Y-wings did a 2hard to NW, the other landed on the rock. My flankers pounced, the front team did too, and Lulo burst into flames after his ion maneuver. At least he did his job to some degree.

The next turns were yet another dance on eggshells. The northern team circled around that nortwesternmost rock, the other two came from the southern end of that rock line (4 rocks that basically form a line). I managed to bump myself there by being absent minded for a moment. I forgot that I move first (?!), dialed in a maneuver that would obviously bump, and then didn't even move the one in the back first.
In the end he surprised me with a 4k, but time was called before I had to suffer the consequences of the two ions. Anyway, 4 Awings against 2 Ywings at that point was pretty ok.

Overall, dorsal turrets are not so bad as the only weapon, and ions only deal 1 damage. It's just so extremely threatening disaster!

104-84

Lessons/Conclusion :

• Patience
• don't be stupid?

Turn 1:

Turn 2: it just looked beautiful!

Tournament 10.2.19 Game 4

4+1 v2.1
vs
BBBBA

And yet again a matchup where I have to be extremely careful. We both bring 5 ships. But he has 36hp and 14 red dice to my 20hp and 10 dice.

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: JOUST ME! Me? ARC DODGE! I know I can burn down a Bwing in almost 1 turn - IF he lets me.

Deployment : See image. This time I put the rock into the SW corner, to prevent that this half moon-ish area (south field) will be obstructed. In the end we never really went there, but I wanted it as an option.

The gameplan for the first turns: Drag him through the rocks, threaten multiple flanks, try to grab the A-wing for free and isolated if possible.

How it went: What a nailbiter!

Turn 1: I started with the flight, but saw him moving so slowly that I had to abort. Unfortunately nr2 got into a bad position. His A-wing really did break formation. Sweet!
Turn 2: Nr2 became the new southern flanker, Lulo had to come to the flock, lonewolf be dam*ed. I moved the Awings 3+4 in front of that triangle gap so he'd expect me to come through it. But I went not far enough, or too far to correct by boost, so everything was then off a bit.
Turn 3: Yep, the timing was off. He took a 3bank with the Awing into the gap, and I wasn't far away to dodge without a boost. I was overly cautious here and dodged with one ship, losing my shot. Lulo and the other still had a shot though and removed mod plus a shield. No shots for B-wings.
Turn 4: Now it gets complicated. You'll see in the image - my ships are all. over. the. place. The one in the NW corner had to boost out of the crackshot and got dangerously close to the edge. Lulo went the other direction. The southern flanker started to put in damage, and the other two dodged for their lives.

Turn 5-7: I got two B-wings and the Awing to half damage, and only lost 2 shields on one all game for the next 3 turns. It was glorious chaos, everyone for themselves trying to survive and getting some damage on top.

I don't know how often he shot overall, but it wasn't very often. It has to be frustrating, for sure, but I do not see what other gameplan I can use to win this game.

59-20

Lessons/Conclusion :

• Dodging works, is exciting, and tiring

So overall, I went 3-1 after a stupid first loss and three very tough matchups. But my MoV was so bad that I was the worst 3-1 of the event. Still, I'll take it. In two weeks is a hyperspace event with largely the same people. I can bring the same list though!

Setup: he has the most beautiful B-wings!

Turn 1: improvised - and messed up!

Turn 2: bait him through the middle

Turn 4: fight!

Turn 5: run? run!

I had two more "serious" games, one in the team tournament last Saturday (that was actually the snap+4 version!), one yesterday night in an online tournament with great prize support and a real buy-in. Puts me at 2-0 for hyperspace/league tournament games now, or 7-4 including extended. I'm still very hopefull and excited for the 23rd when I'll finally have a hyperspace tournament.

E: So i need 2 more games to fill the third dozen. At the moment it's 6:6, 10:2, 7:3. Most losses were extended, and many by very expensive lists before the point change. I really think the list has great potential, but we'll see if that's true for me, too.

Has anyone tried the four named A Wings in a list? I’ve loved reading your bat reps, but I’m baulking at the cost of going up to 5! You’d be able to load out with prockets and optics plus talent to season on all four

1 hour ago, Smudger13 said:

Has anyone tried the four named A Wings in a list? I’ve loved reading your bat reps, but I’m baulking at the cost of going up to 5! You’d be able to load out with prockets and optics plus talent to season on all four

The problem is, that means you add 56 points of upgrades! That is a lot of upgrades for 2attack ships with just 4 hp. I think such a list has a better time with the resistance transporter

I played a game last night in the Salt Mines tournament with the older version of my Heroic Scream list (Prockets Tallie & Zari, Crack Shot L'ulo & 2 Greens) vs XXx (Tricky HLC Poe, Heroic Black One Nien, Tricky Lone Wolf L'ulo). It's exactly the kind of matchup I fear: a list that can punch hard enough to get reliable damage on focused heroic A-wings while also being higher initiative and sacrificing very little in the way of HP.

Opponent gave me initiative, naturally. I placed a pivot rock, but he clogged the lanes on both sides while keeping most of the rocks pretty tight. The far side of the board remained relatively open, with only two far-spaced rocks past the mid line. I deployed in 4+1 to my right-hand corner and he deployed as far away as possible.

Turn 0 made me sure he was going to try to drag me through the rocks, which he did by slow playing his X-wings while L'ulo zipped down the side to flank. To counter, I did what A-wings do best: unbelievable speed. 5 straight + boost, then 4 straight past the deepest rock plus boost left, and we were in position to get shots on turn 3 on the open side of the board, forcing him to turn and engage or give up unopposed shots. We each fired three shots, but wound up doing no damage whatsoever.

Then came the crucial turn. I made a positioning mistake but got away with it because he made a more consequential one. I had the trail Green zip 5 forward, boost toward the board edge, and flip its guns to get in Nien's way and still get a shot if he fast played Nien. Then I built a killbox for Poe with the other four. It would have been perfect but for my positioning mistake: Tallie's boost to block Poe failed by a couple millimeters because of the lead Green's positioning. But then, his mistake that bailed me out: L'ulo clipped a rock whilst zipping past me, and was therefore unable to flip his guns. Poe wound up in the killbox. Nien got by me, but my opponent chose not to use Black One, which would have put Nien on my six and giving him a second shot; however, taking ion for that is rough, so I don't blame him. Not sure what I would have done in his shoes.

Poe took L'ulo's shields, then the killbox (which included a prockets shot from Zari) took him down to 1 health with two face-up damage cards. Had my opponent not clipped the rock, his L'ulo would have had a shot on mine and quite possibly could have taken him off the board, which would have made the rest of the game go quite differently.

This wound up being more or less the deciding round. Poe was on the run and only got one more good shot off the rest of the game. My L'ulo was also on the run, but his L'ulo clipped another rock when he took a turn too wide in pursuit, giving me half points without ever having put through a damage on him. I made another mistake by somehow missing a stress token on A-wings that always like to be stressed, so I hung a Green out to dry with no tokens and it predictably exploded immediately, but I also finished Poe off that round with a booty shot from Zari. With his heavy hitter off the board, the clock winding down and still facing four A-wings (three at full health), my opponent conceded the game.

If we'd played it out, I imagine we would have traded L'ulos and finished with a 121-76 win unless one of us got a lucky break on the dice. As it was I got credit for a 200-56 win.

@GreenDragoon - How often do you find yourself finishing before time is up? As you alluded to in your tournament wrapup above, I wonder how taxing it could be to run at a larger event if it always goes to time, plus how that might impact events where MOV matters.

6 minutes ago, gennataos said:

@GreenDragoon - How often do you find yourself finishing before time is up? As you alluded to in your tournament wrapup above, I wonder how taxing it could be to run at a larger event if it always goes to time, plus how that might impact events where MOV matters.

Good question!

I think I have to pay more attention to the difference between hyperspace and extended. I think (but am not entirely sure) that extended games take longer, are harder to win and require more care.

It's another reason I'm looking so much forward to the 23rd, so I can compare at least something. I expect games to be shorter and my list to bleed less mov. But so far it is very tiring and much better for a SO than another format tournament.

I maybe going to the dark side...

Testing out a recent revelation (thanks recent Krayt cast) that maybe 5 SFs with no gunner can have similar or maybe better results than 5 RZ2s. I know this is mainly about 5 RZ2s, but I'm interested in others thoughts on the comparison.

SFs - More health, no arc management (just point it backwards), access to 3 turns more often along with having 1 straight and banks, can fit Fanatical.

RZ2s - Access to boost, linked action to boost or arc turn, more room for upgrades like trick shot, crack shot, heroic and adv optics.

Current test list is Backdraft w/ Fanatical & Hull Upgrade & 4 Omega Experts w/ Fanatical. Having Fanatical allows the SFs to start taking evade actions to stay alive longer once they lose shields which I think is a huge feature.

31 minutes ago, RStan said:

I maybe going to the dark side...

Testing out a recent revelation (thanks recent Krayt cast) that maybe 5 SFs with no gunner can have similar or maybe better results than 5 RZ2s. I know this is mainly about 5 RZ2s, but I'm interested in others thoughts on the comparison.

SFs - More health, no arc management (just point it backwards), access to 3 turns more often along with having 1 straight and banks, can fit Fanatical.

RZ2s - Access to boost, linked action to boost or arc turn, more room for upgrades like trick shot, crack shot, heroic and adv optics.

Current test list is Backdraft w/ Fanatical & Hull Upgrade & 4 Omega Experts w/ Fanatical. Having Fanatical allows the SFs to start taking evade actions to stay alive longer once they lose shields which I think is a huge feature.

On one side, I see two and a half crucial differences that - to me - make Awings and break SFs:

1. Optics. You don't have the points to do 5 omegas + optics + fanatical (which would be amazing!). You could fit 4 of those and Null though...
2. The free boost action. I love boosting, and in fact it was a criteria since I started in 1.0. I'd always sort by boost and start from there. I did that in 2.0 too.
3. The amazing dial. Most turns are 2hard, 3bank or 5 straight. I'd only count that half because the SFs don't need it due to lack of red actions, but it is very nice to have.

And of course the other side, the point I had made some time back: the barrier of entry is IMO huge. Who is willing to get 5 SFs on the hope that it's actually any good? And then willing to invest enough time to learn how to play it?

edit: and the 3 green dice are also very nice to have on massed ships! They make optics so much better in my opinion.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

And of course the other side, the point I had made some time back: the barrier of entry is IMO huge. Who is willing to get 5 SFs on the hop that it's actually any good? And then willing to invest enough time to learn how to play it?

*Raises hand really high*

I want to invest a lot more time into "create killbox" type lists with 4+ ships that can act mostly independent and not be in a formation box via Howlrunner or Biggs. RZ2s and SFs can create the most killboxes because of their rear arc added uptime. Then eventually Separatists will come out and I'll be all over that too. To help the financial investment part, Vassal helps a ton spending time trying something before buying into it completely. I currently have 4 RZ2s, still need 1 more, but I only have 1 SF...so that's a bit more of a problem.

2 minutes ago, RStan said:

*Raises hand really high*

I want to invest a lot more time into "create killbox" type lists with 4+ ships that can act mostly independent and not be in a formation box via Howlrunner or Biggs. RZ2s and SFs can create the most killboxes because of their rear arc added uptime. Then eventually Separatists will come out and I'll be all over that too. To help the financial investment part, Vassal helps a ton spending time trying something before buying into it completely. I currently have 4 RZ2s, still need 1 more, but I only have 1 SF...so that's a bit more of a problem. 

Yes, I see. I needed some rationalization to buy 5 at once. But so far I've played a good 43 games if vassal is included. With an hour each, that's 3$ per hour fun. Without vassal it's at 20 games or so, and even that is already well worth it. I needed the extra benefit of having A-wings to play to buy into it to be confident that I would get to that many games without knowing whether it's really working. But it sounds like "killbox lists" fulfills a similar purpose for you to try often enough.

As other point, see my edit. I think the 3 green dice are really great for massed ships with optics. It makes that focus - which you take anyway - so much better. You don't believe how many people commented on the crazy survivability of Awings!

15 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You  don't believe how many people commen  ted on the crazy survivability of Awings! 

I’d believe that... my luckiest so far was a 1-hull Zari surviving three attempts to finish her off in one round of combat - including Heroic re-rolling a triple blank into triple evades against 3 hits!

Needless to say I had to apologise profusely to my opponent, who was not at all amused!

@RStan - I think the dial, access to boost and ability to double reposition makes the A-Wings more versatile. I’d be interested to hear how an s/f swarm would perform, though.