Just now, Micanthropyre said:Like a vassal match was happening?
Yeah.
Five A-Wings
Just now, gennataos said:Yeah.
Streamed? Man I should figure out where these things are
Just now, Micanthropyre said:Streamed? Man I should figure out where these things are
No, but usually they log it and you could get it from the league website
I’ll post logs here
2 minutes ago, kenoslaw said:I’ll post logs here
So what do you think about the matchup?
My theory for the coming tournaments is that 5A does very well against a lot of lists, but will have a hard or at the very best 50:50 matchup against these efficiency generic spam lists. And those in turn won't do too well against the rest again, and won't win many cut games or entire large events. If that was true then matchups and generally the amount of those spam lists will be really important for 5A success.
24 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:So what do you think about the matchup?
My theory for the coming tournaments is that 5A does very well against a lot of lists, but will have a hard or at the very best 50:50 matchup against these efficiency generic spam lists. And those in turn won't do too well against the rest again, and won't win many cut games or entire large events. If that was true then matchups and generally the amount of those spam lists will be really important for 5A success.
Talking to @Biophysical , he didn't feel 5X matched up great against 5A.
28 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:So what do you think about the matchup?
My theory for the coming tournaments is that 5A does very well against a lot of lists, but will have a hard or at the very best 50:50 matchup against these efficiency generic spam lists. And those in turn won't do too well against the rest again, and won't win many cut games or entire large events. If that was true then matchups and generally the amount of those spam lists will be really important for 5A success.
I disagree, i feel like 5A have good matchup with most spam lists. This game waS v close due to some horrible dice at the beginning
You can find my logs here:
https://listfortress.com/league_participant/2238
also full game vs Paul (in the league site you only have half): https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MPIk7OzWTkEaea_X4gyfJyLaRotQ5JgY
2 hours ago, gennataos said:Talking to @Biophysical , he didn't feel 5X matched up great against 5A.
Yeah, I got lucky a lot, and still lost. It was also my second game with 5X, so I'm decidedly uncertain about a lot of things. I may have made mistakes and had suboptimal strategies that made it feel harder than it was.
1 hour ago, kenoslaw said:I disagree, i feel like 5A have good matchup with most spam lists. This game waS v close due to some horrible dice at the beginning
Yeah, average dice would not have been nearly as close. This is a matchup that I'd need to think about a lot more before I felt comfortable with 5X, I think.
5 hours ago, kenoslaw said:I disagree, i feel like 5A have good matchup with most spam lists. This game waS v close due to some horrible dice at the beginning
3 hours ago, Biophysical said:Yeah, I got lucky a lot, and still lost. It was also my second game with 5X, so I'm decidedly uncertain about a lot of things. I may have made mistakes and had suboptimal strategies that made it feel harder than it was.
Yeah, average dice would not have been nearly as close. This is a matchup that I'd need to think about a lot more before I felt comfortable with 5X, I think.
Thanks for your replies. I missed the start, only saw from the turn where Ronith almost died. I got the impression that it could have fallen on either side.
If those lists are fine, what are hard matchups then?
This is only from the opinion of someone who's played against 5A a bit, not someone who plays 5A, so take it with a grain of salt. Hyperspace 5A doesn't have Crack Shot, so it seems to me like it would have trouble with high agility, high defense stuff like Kylo of CLT jedi.
12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:
Thanks for your replies. I missed the start, only saw from the turn where Ronith almost died. I got the impression that it could have fallen on either side.
If those lists are fine, what are hard matchups then?
4 CTL Jedis, PalpFeroph&Friends, ScumJank, Vynder, some rebel beefs, Blackout
6 minutes ago, Biophysical said:This is only from the opinion of someone who's played against 5A a bit, not someone who plays 5A, so take it with a grain of salt. Hyperspace 5A doesn't have Crack Shot, so it seems to me like it would have trouble with high agility, high defense stuff like Kylo of CLT jedi.
high agility usually is fragile so it falls, under rain of optics/heroic 2 dice shots combined with bumps
Edited by kenoslawFinally played my first vassal game. 5A is like breaking out your favorite hoodie in the fall.
Played against Fenn and two bounty hunters. Matchup I think is pretty strong in my favor, and the game played out that way
On 1/17/2020 at 6:10 PM, kenoslaw said:I disagree, i feel like 5A have good matchup with most spam lists. This game waS v close due to some horrible dice at the beginning
I just watched the start... wow! 2 rounds of shots with a single shield taken xD Even with the obstructed and ranged shots, that's just not very likely - and could have fallen on the other side of the bellcurve, too.
One thing I noticed, it looks like you split fire on different ships quite often. E.g. in turn 4 you could have started with Tallie's range 1 shot (always go for the 3v2 right :D) and then kep at the same guy with Zizi. And the turn after that one, Tallie shot neither him nor the range 1 attack. You could have shot the 2hull Xwing with 3 shots, and potentially saved Greer from taking 3 damage. The effects snowball from there, as Tallie does not have to follow him over half the map and so on.
Just something I wondered about while going over the replay.
I’m planning on getting in some 5A games today. I’m having a really hard time deciding which load out to try first. There really are a bunch of different variants. I’m starting to think builds might depend heavily on how often we’d see the mirror and try to get a bid for that.
Edited by gennataos44 minutes ago, gennataos said:I’m planning on getting in some 5A games today. I’m having a really hard time deciding which load out to try first. There really are a bunch of different variants. I’m starting to think builds might depend heavily on how often we’d see the mirror and try to get a bid for that.
Man, not going with the Zizi Tali Ronith Greer Blue feels awkward because all of those pieces are pretty good. I think you should play that to get used to the interactions, because just like last time I'm not sure that enough people will play 5A to make it a big meta threat to value bidding over each other.
45 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:
How did you like the spread vs. fast ships? In the past, I kind of hated it because i found one flank or the other would get caught out a little. I've actually been doing the finger five vs. similar lists.
I love the Ronith ability tracking. I played three games last night and triggered his ability twice (with a Zizi/Greer/Ronith/BSE x2 Heroptics list at 199).
2 minutes ago, gennataos said:How did you like the spread vs. fast ships? In the past, I kind of hated it because i found one flank or the other would get caught out a little. I've actually been doing the finger five vs. similar lists.
It worked out quite well, but if Holo had not gone that fast... I'm not sure. FingerFive has the advantage that you really punish something in front. But then again, you lose completely out if you make a mistake. I feel the spread is a bit more lenient? Or actually, it feels like the spread has a higher performance&skill ceiling, higher skill floor, and lower performance floor if that makes sense.
6 minutes ago, gennataos said:I love the Ronith ability tracking. I played three games last night and triggered his ability twice (with a Zizi/Greer/Ronith/BSE x2 Heroptics list at 199).
Yeah it's way more useful than Zizi. Zizi is simply amount of turns... lol. I didn't force his ability this game, not as much as last one. It just happened that he had to bug out, and that means of course that his ability turns blank.
2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:
Nice win against a good player playing what I anticipate will be a popular list!
I agree with the strategy of going for the BAs, if you can get them off the board with minimal losses even Kylo will struggle with 3-4 RZ2s.
1 hour ago, gennataos said:How did you like the spread vs. fast ships? In the past, I kind of hated it because i found one flank or the other would get caught out a little. I've actually been doing the finger five vs. similar lists.
I still think that spreading is very strong, but I think the edges should be brought in a little. Using 3 bank towards the board edge and an angle boost to end up parallel to the edge is a fine way to swing toward a board edge if you need to, but leaves you able to build your killbox faster in the middle so you don't end up late to the fight.
I think the only thing I would have done massively different is I'm pretty sure on the turn Tali turned away from the fight I would have done a 2 bank left. Its tough to gauge on Vassal, but I think that leaves you snuggled up to the debris cloud and you just focus, giving you the 3 hard right the turn after. The other things are little nitpicky stuff, and also your hindsight doing the 2 straight instead of the 2 bank with the BSR.
16 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:Its tough to gauge on Vassal, but I think that leaves you snuggled up to the debris cloud and you just focus, giving you the 3 hard right the turn after.
It does! I added it to the post, and want to mention it here too. It's by far the most interesting turn of the game.
The leftbank+roll+boost fits next to the cloud.
Leftbank is nicely next to the debris and has the benefit of threatening Vonreg, likely forcing a reposition or deplete instead of strain.
Leftbank + straight boost is just shown for sake of completion, but would be arcdodged too easily.
3 straight fits nicely behind the debris. But it has, as mentioned in the post, a really bad next turn.
3 straight + boost would a) overlap the debris, and b) overlap Holo.
At the time it wasn't clear to me that we would fight in the northern end. Holo was likely going left. But he also had the option of turning right with both and eating an i5 alive. 1hard Vonreg+boost left, 1hard Holo and reposition as needed might easily lead to another killbox on Tallie. The 2hard would have taken care of that possibility, that was my reasoning at the time. Only, I would have needed 2hard+boost+rotate+focus... I thought Holo would go left or right, not basically flip and reverse.
The reason that BSR didn't simply block one of them was my fear of Kylo. A 2 or even 3 straight would prevent Holo slipping away. But if that does not block, and Ronith misses the block, then BSR will eat two shots from Kylo and Holo.
The TL;DR: is that I forgot about DD, and did not see this maneuver. Without DD, my maneuver choice would have forced him to commit to one exit, and I was covering both. Even better, it would force him to split shots.
By the way, I'll copy one of my replies from reddit:
As far as I'm concerned, there are three contender lists. And I am not sure which one I like most.
-
Zizi Tallie Greer Ronith 1Blue : no optics on Tallie, but has the advantage of 2 i5
-
Zizi Greer Ronith 2 Blues : only i5i4, but has the advantage of 2 blockers and all have and can use optics
-
Zizi Tallie Greer 2 Blues : only 4 heroics and no Ronith, but has the advantage of 2i5 and 5x optics and 2 blockers
I value Ronith's ability and grudgingly accept that i5 is really good. I would prefer the second version, but I think for now that the first is better. The third ticks a lot of boxes though, so I really don't know.
Edited by GreenDragoon4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:By the way, I'll copy one of my replies from reddit:
As far as I'm concerned, there are three contender lists. And I am not sure which one I like most.
Zizi Tallie Greer Ronith 1Blue : no optics on Tallie, but has the advantage of 2 i5
Zizi Greer Ronith 2 Blues : only i5i4, but has the advantage of 2 blockers and all have and can use optics
Zizi Tallie Greer 2 Blues : only 4 heroics and no Ronith, but has the advantage of 2i5 and 5x optics and 2 blockers
I value Ronith's ability and grudgingly accept that i5 is really good. I would prefer the second version, but I think for now that the first is better. The third ticks a lot of boxes though, so I really don't know.
I think, maybe, Zari replacing Tallie in #3 is also a possibility.
I'd love to see us 5A aficionados be cognizant of how often certain things are found useful:
- Zizi ability (LOLZ, no, this isn't necessary or even in question)
- Ronith ability (great on paper, but does it need to be forced? how often does it just "happen"?)
- Tallie I5
- Greer ability (probably also close to LOLZ territory, but could the Tallie I5 be more important?)
- Zari ability (or, actually, was the absence of something else felt?)
Chatting with @Micanthropyre this morning, we're unlikely to arrive at a consensus "best" version of 5A. Local/regional metas could play a role, but there is a ton of mix and match potential, which doesn't even include throwing a Fireball into the mix (I know, not the same thing, but possibly the correct decision). Nonetheless, the more we pay attention to how useful given pilots are, that could do a lot to help us shrink the number of "best" variants.
For example, I'm really skeptical of Ronith. Amazing on paper, but I played three games with him and triggered his ability twice. That's a ton of firing and only two triggers.
Edited by gennataos2 minutes ago, gennataos said:For example, I'm really skeptical of Ronith. Amazing on paper, but I played three games with him and triggered his ability twice. That's a ton of firing and only two triggers.
You know my opinion. Boba's or Luke's abilities eg never trigger against me - but they don't because I don't shoot them, and I don't shoot them because of the ability. In the BartoszBiophysical game, the ability was definitely important, as in my first game. Would you leave heroic out?
6 minutes ago, gennataos said:Chatting with @Micanthropyre this morning, we're unlikely to arrive at a consensus "best" version of 5A. Local/regional metas could play a role, but there is a ton of mix and match potential, which doesn't even include throwing a Fireball into the mix (I know, not the same thing, but possibly the correct decision). Nonetheless, the more we pay attention to how useful given pilots are, that could do a lot to help us shrink the number of "best" variants.
Fully agree here.
6 minutes ago, gennataos said:I think, maybe, Zari replacing Tallie in #3 is also a possibility.
By Tallies i5 you mean how often her initiative was relevant? That will be one of my most pressing questions! I think many of us expect a ton of i5 and even more below. Or phrased differently, barely any list will have i6. In all of these games, i5 is relevant. Another expectation is mass i4. Third, I'm not sure how many lists will only have i1-2. These expectations make Tallie way better than Zari in my book.
My thoughts:
Zizi ability is a no brainer, she's the best RZ2 pilot and easily worth the points.
Ronith: Man, this is an interesting one. I think it's worth the points increase, and I2 has it's uses as well. I guess I think of it like Heroic: it's just a little bit of cost for some insurance that you might never use.
Tallie: This I think we'll find out as the meta starts to become a little more established. If I4 is super prevalent then the value of I5 goes way up. If the meta is I5 with a bid or I6 based, then Tallie is probably my first cut.
Greer: So I'm really unwilling to cut Greer, but as @gennataos mentioned we talked this morning and that might be because the way I play Greer is heavily influenced by my previous use of her with Trick Shot. Her ability lets me play her around the obstacles a lot more, and I use both the 1 hard and the 3 hard a lot and therefore I find her ability insanely good.
Zari: As I played more and more 5A last year, Zari's strength started to evolve for me. It started with just reducing the brain strain, you can just dial a maneuver and it doesn't matter if you bump. Then as I played more, I started using Zari as the ultimate blocker. 1 straight to victory isn't nearly as good when you can ram into them with Zari focus rotate just in case they didn't do a 1 straight so now you either get a block or you have an awesome shot into their butt. I think one of my most common phrases when playing 5A was "Well, Zari is going to bump and do Zari things". I'm starting to think I'd be willing to cut either Tallie or Ronith for Zari.