Having a working Chatper-creation-system in place would absolutely not preclude putting ample fluff into the book for the hard of surfing. Indeed, done right, it could open up the Chapter variety fluff for everyone. I could personally write a roughly four page essay that shows the massive variety of SM Chapters for example that would give rookies ample to work with as a kick-start.

I also think that a more detailed write up on a couple of Chapters would also be desireable.

Hell that would be stacks more than we got in the 1e 40K rulebook ... and though we were all new to the setting when that came out, I don't recall people struggling to grasp what SMs were then.

Why the Chapter Creation Rules (CCR) aren't in the main book:

Like every devoted chaos cult FFG has to make regular offerings to the demons of chaos. Those offerings go to beings that are called investors or owners (the largest cults pay hommage to the vilest of them all, the shareholders). Being a crafty group FFG realized that if they put the aforementioned CCRs in the main book, they will probably have less to offer to their demonic overlords when the time comes for the grand ritual, which is called the end of the fiscal year. This is why they decided to put the CCRs into a separate book, which will be given to the ravenous cultists initiated after the release of the main book. This way FFG will be able to gain larger profit margins, an offering that always pleases the demons.

So as you can see FFG made a choice that every RPG publisher/chaos cult makes sooner or later, witholding materials from the main book and publishing them as a new product. Which isn't as bad as it looks since Deathwatch doesn't have the same problems Star Wars SagaEd had.

PS: I would love to see the CCRs and new chapters as the next book after the GM kit.

Arag said:

Yes, you make a good point. This is an entirely commercial decision by FFG to not include the CCR in the main rules, made with an eye on future releases rather than what would be best for customers. It's not a decision that will help gameplay, and restricting DW teams to chosing from only 6 Chapters clearly flies in the face of canon ... arguably all the more so given the 6 Chapters forced upon us.

But hey, it is interesting to see how this clearly cynical commercial decision is being disguised by ever more imaginative excuses. Next I expect we'll hear it's due to a shortage of paper!

The Wyzard said:

nastybutler said:

MILLANDSON said:

Am I the only person who liked the Black Industries Dark Heresy psychic power system more than Rouge Trader? If Deathwatch uses the Rouge Trader system I’ll have my work cut out in making it match the Dark Heresy system (which my party likes better also). If they give Deathwatch a new system I’ll give it a chance; I gave the Rouge Trader system a chance but it just didn’t seem as smooth to me or my players as Dark Heresy. Maybe I just didn’t really get the way they set it up but it seems like the Rouge Trader psychic system nerf’s the danger of using psychic powers.

TCBC Freak said:

No you are not the only person.

TCBC Freak said:

*Shudder* No you're not the only one, but you're in the minority. The DH psychic system is terrible. They took the Warhammer 2nd ed system and made it worse. As is, the psychic system in DH doesn't make any sense - the smart thing for the Imperium to do with sanctioned psykers is shoot them all in the head before they get a chance to use even a single power. The chance of something going hideously wrong is far too high, much higher than the fluff indicates.

macd21 said:

That's what fate points are for.

Adam France said:

Once again, if you've taken part in the discussions between the devs as to why they made the choices they did, please post evidence. Otherwise, please stop posting your personal opinions as fact. Sure, there could be a commercial element to it, but why could they have only possible ever decided to do it for money? Why can't they have done it because they wanted to give players a solid foundation that allow both people who are brand new to the 40k setting and long-time 40k fans to play the game as members of some of the most iconic Chapters out there.

They could have made the decision because, you know, they thought it was the best one. Not everything has to have a hidden agenda which results in the fans being lied to. Eventually it just ends up sounding like some sort of conspiracy rant by someone who has never really liked the game and has a grudge against FFG.

Right on. I believe they are choosing Chapters based on popularity, but they're not doing it to make a quick buck. Ask yourselves why the popular chapters, (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templar, etc.) are popular in the first place. Because they're interesting! Because they have personality! Because they're different! It's all about roleplaying, which is the different between the RPG and the Table Top. So they're bringing in chapters that have the more interesting characters and personalities. A space viking? A berserker? A stuck-up, by-the-book nerd? A marine swathed in mystery because Lion never said "thanks"? A "burn the witch!" zealot? Derrrrrrrp. Think about it. It would be fun to roleplay those! Yes they're going to butt heads: DA's vs. SW, BT's vs. Librarians, BA's vs. Smurfs, But that's because it'll be interesting to see how the players act it out. Does it result to bloodshed? Easily could!

So I understand why they choose the chapters they did. Though I, personally, would like to see some of MY favorite chapters *Cough* Raven Guard, Iron Hands, both interesting and unique *hack* I'm not going to gripe and yell and scream if they don't put them in the CORE book. They're making other books, not just the one. Relax, think of the Emperor, give FFG a break for once.

macd21 said:

But that’s my point. It is like that in all the novels and it was like that before in the rule books too. The Imperium does often just shoot them in the head and when they break them and make them strong enough to be maybe safe they still watch them. Psychic powers shouldn’t be a catch all to solve every problem, player should use them with a grain of salt, not as a first choice. “Oh look, a Chaos cultist, *Spasm*, he’s down lets kill him… Oh look an Ork, *Bio-lightning*, he’s dead… Oh look, a bird *Force Barrage*.” No it needs to be like in the Lore, in the Black Library style. As in, “Holy crap! A Chaos Marine!! Quick use a power!” My players fear using their powers and rightly so I say; but they know that when they do they will often work. I mean when one of my boys hit a Daemon-host with Spasm and the thing failed its resistance check they breathed a sign of relief and killed it quickly. But when another guy randomly decided to use call creature for no reason and had to take a psychic phenomenon test and it rained blood and they had to run from an angry mob it was fun RP and they learned a lesson, the Warp is fickle, as it should be.

And a 10% chance something will go wrong isn’t two high in my opinion; in fact I think it‘s a little low. Couple that with the fact that that’s only to the psychic phenomenon table, and from that you have a 25% chance to go to the perils of the warp table (and not everything on that table is terrible) I don‘t think that’s too high.

I know this is just my opinion and I welcome yours but now you know why I feel the way I do.

BrotherCain said:

That's a chicken or egg question really. Are the popular Chapters popular because they're particularly compelling? Or are they popular because they've been marketed heavily over the years and have the support of GW in the form of mini ranges and codexes? Personally I lean more towards the latter, but there's really no way to know.

TCBC Freak said:

Bravo sir!

I thought Cadian Blood did a great job of showing what it is to be a sanctioned psyker. The guy spent the duration of the story on the verge of getting a bolt round to the brain, and at the end became possessed. Yeah it ain't easy being a sanctioned psyker!

Atheosis said:

I think a quote out of the DH corebook says it best. From page 158:

" Man only spoke of it once. He say bein' psyker not so unlike us spine-divers. Spend all your time with your parts in sea-dark, awaitin' the day when d' fang-fish bite."
-Spectoris Agri-hand, Dermay-

I definitely like the fettered/unfettered/push mechanics. However, when those rules are applied to DH through Ascension it rather negates any future use out of the talent Psychic Supremacy as it is currently written: DotDG , page 26. But that's really a topic for another thread in a different subforum.

-=Brother Praetus=-

MILLANDSON said:

Naturally, like yours, unless otherwise noted all my posts are opinions. Naturally I cannot provide evidence other than the decisions made themselves, which I personally believe (as clearly do others here) indicate it being a commercial decision over a gameplay one. I do think it's incontestable, and I've certainly seen no counter argument that even vaguely holds water (imho) that it's neither a decision that fits canon particularly well, or one that will help GMs and Players make the games they want to play.

As I've said before a CCR and a solid foundation in what SMs are, are not mutually exclusive things. I would firmly expect both to be included in the starting rules, and until the CCR is released in the later book the game will be tricky to run imo, not just because players will inevitably want to play pcs from other Chapters but also because the paltry 6 chosen are not all best suited to being members of a DW team.

Your point is basically; 'you can't possibly grasp FFG's thought processes because you weren't party to that meeting'. Frankly in this case their actions speak easily as loud as words.

As to your thinly veiled implication I should shut up and go away, I am a customer of FFG, I own most of the 40K rpg books they have produced, I will inevitably buy more, short of never buying 40K rpg books again I have no choice. I have produced and shared many thousands of words of my own work for use with DH and RT, which I've had plenty of positive responses to here and elsewhere ... I'd say I have at least as much right to post my opinions here as you do.

It's not like I'm alone in questioning FFG's decision making processes lately ...

So...how about those Black Templars, eh?

SonofDorn said:

One time I asked a Black Templar why they don't ever take a break from crusading. You know, a little vacation, some down-time? Maybe build a nice chapter-house somewhere?

And he got up in my face and growled, " Are all the Xenos dead yet ?"

Of course I said, "Well, no , not all of them."

And then he slapped me so hard I fell down and told me I'd better stop wasting time with my stupid mouth, then.

@ Adam France:

It isn't that you are questioning FFG's motives. It's more than you and certain other people on these forums come around here and state your opinion like it is fact and then proceed to browbeat, insult and question the motives of anyone who disagrees with you. You are incapable of having a civil discussion on these forums. When you say you have yet to see an argument that holds water, this is because you have already made up your mind. You act as though we should just accept that you are right and sit down. You don't want to discuss these issues, you want to force them down our throats. It's obnoxious.

You can use the annoying "IMHO" preface as much as you want, but we all know what you mean. You don't think your opinion is humble, and you don't truly think yours is only an opinion.

Millandson, Atheosis, Lucius T and Peacekeeper B have all been very vocal about their questioning of FFG and they are respected and pleasant members of this community, specifically because they don't attack people who disagree with them. Use them as an example.

Back on Topic:

I had a feeling the Black Templars would be involved, and I think their presence in a kill-team should add to the tension that seems to be the core RP hook of a Deathwatch game. My real worry though, is how truly one-dimensional BT seem in all of the material I've read. I know they probably will be presented as having more depth in the book but (as much as I love the BT myself) I just don't see them as good RP material.

In the hands of a good player and GM, however, anything and everything is capable of being good RP material. All it takes is a little thought. I'm personally looking forward to the tensions between the different chapters, and I think that's going to be a core part of the roleplay potential of the game. Black Templars show a fairly unique concept-type of Space Marines, those of the crusading knights of old, never stopping until the infidel is destroyed. Joining an organisation that might rankle with them normally in order to learn how to better defeat the infidel (xenos) is a good compromise I think.

Plus, it does seem like the SMs sent to the Deathwatch seem to be the Marines with a bit more initiative, willing to try new things and adapt. If that's the case, then I don't see why a Black Templar willing to bend tradition in order to better do his duty wouldn't be a source of brilliant character potential.

Ferau said:

Dude, in what way was he attacking people? You say that he can't have a civil discussion on these forums, and yet I can't think of any posts he's made that were uncivil. This is a forum, people come here to post their opinions, and then they discuss those opinions with others who often disagree. Sometimes those discussions can get heated. That's what forums are all about. At no point did Adam call anyone a moron or tell them to shut the **** up. That would be failing to be civil. In fact posting as you did and outright attacking him is the exact thing you are accusing him of. Don't you see a problem there?

I appreciate the kind mention, but honestly if it's within a vitriolic post lambasting somebody for putting forward their views, I'd rather you leave my name out of it. Thanks.

Fair enough, he didn't insult anyone directly. I apologize Adam. You've been pretty civil and I reacted to a perceived tone that now, upon further review, was absent.

I apologize to you too Atheosis.

Ever since Ascension came out the environment on these forums has become pretty intense and I was getting defensive. I can see that I've done no favors for the folks on these forums who have little issue with what FFG has been doing.

I say, those Black Templars are some mighty fine chaps!

Ferau said:

I always thought imho - (an annoying abreviation I agree - that was kinda one of the points I was trying to make - ie - 'do I really need to put this on every post?') - meant 'in my honest opinion' - I never meant to claim to be humble.

SonofDorn said:

Mmm, yes, quite.