I agree with N0, this isn't a case of GW wants moar moneyz, this is actually the case of good marketing for FFG, hoping to draw in existing marine table top players (of which there are a ton) to their tabletop game. Add to that that if they use chapters with their own codex, they have all the fluff they'll ever need on hand and can either be super lazy and have a day with /copy, /paste for the whole background section of the book, or they can take that time saved and work on the mysterious and hopefully home brewed chapter 6.

as for, what is the appeal of playing the anti-social party member? Who here doesn't like say... Wolverine? or other generic bad boy doesn't go with the flow just to be a pain in the rest of the party's butt character? You all know you have a pc who loves that character type I think I have... 3 pcs who like doing that... god this is gonna be a pain in the butt lol.

MILLANDSON said:

BTs are a perfect choice for a Chapter (or part of a Chapter) that might be part of a crusade. Their intransigent position would make them an intresting adversarial faction as well perhaps.

However, they are a terrible choice to be part of the Inquisition controlled DW ... how can it be right or sensible to have a Chapter who absolutely will not work with the Inquisition, and according to FFG's own fluff seem unable to work credibly as part of a team? (Especially when we have so few potential pc Chapters.)

That aside, all these problems we see with the selected handful of Chapters seem only to emphasise the illogicality of excluding rules on statting up pcs from any Chapter in the original release - if they had been included this debate wouldn't even exist. People who wanted to use BTs could, those of us who wish to stick closer to canon (ignoring Mr Gotos contributions thereof) could happily not consider them as DW candidates.

Adam France said:

Which is what I'll be doing anyway apparently. In all honesty, I'm at the point of wondering why I should buy DW at all, seeing as I'm going to have to spend a lot of time and energy writing up my own rules either way.

As you say, this is all compounded by the complete lack of choices when it comes to Chapters. When they came out and said there were only going to be six Chapters I was shouted down when I spoke up and said that was really weak. When most of those Chapters are given to creating problem characters I just don't really know what to say. If they weren't just following the nauseatingly familiar GW marketing model a list of six prominent Chapters that would actually make sense and would lead to fun, dynamic groups (rather than GM hell) would look like this:

1. Ultramarines (Vanilla-generalist)

2. Raven Guard (Stealth specialist)

3. Space Wolves (Close-combat specialist, rowdy brawler)

4. Salamanders (Tough and stubborn humanitarian and artisan)

5. Blood Angels (Close-combat specialist, pretty boy)

6. Blood Ravens (Mysterious and secretive without being a complete a-hole)

But no...we had to have Dark Angels and Black Templars...

Oh and some home-brew Chapter FFG feels like lumping in there that no one has ever heard of or cares about...

This is what they do with a short list of six Chapters...BRILLIANT!!!

Brother Praetus said:

I forgot about them to be honest. It depends on what FFG does with them. Might be interesting to see what they hold.

As for the Black Templars themselves.... Meh, only way my group's going to be playing a Deathwatch campaign is if we tell our resident powergamer that the product exists. Most of the group doesn't care, they're happy with whatever so long as there is a decent balance of elements. Although I am naturally taking notes here; I don't hold much faith in the product, will probably remain that way until a copy appears in my FLGS for me to perusual, but if we have to give the game a try; then I'll be the guy in the corner looking at Ascension...

Atheosis said:

So, you wax indignant about FFG's supposed lack of creativity on this front, and yet the instant a move is made towards creating something new, you berate it...

Essentially, your entire argument comes down to one factor - you don't personally like the choice of Chapters available. Big deal. Given the sheer diversity of established Chapters already in the background, and the everpresent factor of space in the rulebook, it was utterly and inescapably irrelevant that somebody, for whatever reason, would be annoyed by those that were chosen to appear.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I strongly suspect (heck I would be amazed if this isn't the case), that when we have both the Chapter-stat-creation rules (in a later book) sometime next year, and this DW rulebook, I will be able to fit those rules into the space given in the rulebook to (lets say) 2-4 of the starting chapters. It does not have to be a space issue, that's clearly just an excuse, and a weak one at that imo.

This space thing crops up time and time again, and it's never true.

I do agree that only having 6 Chapters was a short fall. I would have had at least 8 in the book, with one being a new Chapter of FFG’s own design. The 7 I would them have then picked are as follows (In no particular order):
1. Ultramarines
2. Raven Guard
3. Iron Hands
4. Black Templar
5. Blood Angles
6. Salamanders
7. Either Imperial Fists or a random Chapter with enough lore to make it easy to expand

Adam France said:

QUOTE: That aside, all these problems we see with the selected handful of Chapters seem only to emphasise the illogicality of excluding rules on statting up pcs from any Chapter in the original release - if they had been included this debate wouldn't even exist. People who wanted to use BTs could, those of us who wish to stick closer to canon (ignoring Mr Gotos contributions thereof) could happily not consider them as DW candidates.

My issue with what you are saying here is this; you are telling me you are staying closer to the cannon by ignoring it where as I am going against the cannon by considering using Black Templar. That makes no sense. I don’t know why so many people have a problem with Goto. The books are not -that- bad, they aren’t the best but whatever, we all have different likes and dislikes but to discount his work as cannon, which according to GW if its published it is cannon, because YOU have issue with it is wrong. Maybe you think it goes against cannon, but it doesn‘t, if it did it wouldn‘t have been published (I know the "cannon" contradicts itself often which is why I prefer the term "Lore," which is more fluid and not so ridged; over cannon, which is a set in stone background, of fluff, which i said why above). Not trying to be rude but it is true, by the way GW works you are wrong, Goto’s work is cannon whether you like it or not which means that the Black Templar can be in Deathwatch.

Adam France said:

Could we have some insider proof then, to demonstrate how we have been lied to? Because unless you've read Deathwatch, you are portraying your opinion that it is an excuse and that it is a lie as fact, which, with it being only your opinion, is obviously not true.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I actually like the Black Templars (I'm rather indifferent towards the Dark Angels). I've actually thought about building a BT army a few times. That said, I recognize that they represent the Chapter many difficult players will gravitate towards. I know because I used be that type of player. I liked playing the angry loner in the party until I realized it's something that is often only fun for the person doing it. Combined with the fact that they don't get along with psykers (or the Inquisition for that matter), it just seems like BTs were shoehorned in to try and make GW and their fanboys happy.

And apparently you didn't understand the point of my post. It wasn't a wishlist composed of the Chapters I like most, but a list composed of Chapters that actually work with others without being all angsty about it. The point I was trying to make was that if they insist on limiting choices to only six Chapters, the Chapters chosen could be a lot more conducive to group play than they apparently are going to be. I mean Black Templars and Dark Angels? Basically what they're saying, as far as I can tell, is that they couldn't come up with long-term solutions to the lack of roleplaying inherent in the setting, so they decided instead to rely primarily on in-party conflict to try and fill it out. And that, in my opinion, does not make for a good RPG.

In the end though, you are right, no list is going to make everyone happy, but hey they're the ones who made the rather silly decision to limit Chapter choices so thoroughly, not I.

Oh and no I have no interest in their home-brew Chapter. There are so many Chapters that already exist that could use (any) fleshing out instead.

MILLANDSON said:

They've never claimed that there wasn't enough room. They never gave a reason one way or the other why they aren't including Chapter creation rules. It's the fans who support their decision that have claimed it was due to a lack of space. Logic would lead me to conclude it's much more likely that it's so they have prime material to put in a future supplement.

Atheosis said:

I’m with you on that, it’s a marketing strategy more than anything. They have a guarantied selling supplement by holding out the create-you-own Chapter rules (or so the thinking goes).

BrotherHostower said:

Isn´t he more the i work for the party not for the rules guy?

I only know the Movies.

You know, we're going to have the same arguments every time a chapter is announced. I feel sorry for FFGs, but they have the courage to do what they believe in.

Some people need to practice the chant ' It's only a game '

Wilfred Owen said:

Yes it's only a game...

Why do we even discuss it? Why do we come to these forums at all? We should do something more substantial with our time don't you think?

After all, it's only a game...

Atheosis said:

Please forgive me for feeling the need to continue this slightly off-topic portion of this thread. However, I feel the need to defend Wilfred Owens on his last post. I apologize if I misconstrue your intent, Wilfred ...

But I believe Wilfred was simply stating something that I have been struggling to get across on several forums - that being, that it's great that fans can have this debate, but that it is inappropriate to argue over it in a way that leads to personal attacks, snide remarks, and otherwise unproductive tripe. While I will allow that I have had similar disagreements on the boards of several games, I simply think that such antics are beyond the pale of such forums. Keep them limited to PM's, or personal e-mails. Everyone on these boards, supposedly, are fans of the game. Therefore, while they may have problems with it, they still choose to play the game. That, IMHO, means that they haven't written it off completely. So, unless your problems with the game require you to vacate the premises completely, and do your own thing, why are you still here, giving grief to those who wan t to play the game? No offense intended.

And yes, I fully expect to be "flamed" for this post. I have already gotten over it.

Sister Cat said:

Seeing as his post was more condescending than most, I'm not sure I agree with what you are saying. For the most part this discussion has been civil though at times heated. Nobody has been calling each other idiots or anything...

Actually, I figure the chapter creation rules just might end up as the not-GM-screen component of the GM's kit for Deathwatch.

The booklets for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader in their GM Kits have been subdivided into multiple sections, with a "main" section that's about the number of pages it's been estimated the custom chapter rules would take.

Atheosis said:

Isn't everyone that plays DH or DW or any of the GW based games a fan of the system? I think it's funny that within our own ranks we have labels to apply to everyone. If you play the game, you're a fan of it! Period. Fanboy and fangirl are names thrown around to be disparaging, but it's just semantics. You either like a game and play it or you don't.

Anyway, just a pet peeve of mine.

LeBlanc13 said:

Well, errr, just thought that I would point out that there are odd exceptions. I'm dabbling in playing a game using the Dark Heresy mechanics, though I'm not overtly liking the experience at the moment (partially my fault; it's an Ascension -level character and only created two other Dark Heresy characters!). In general I'm not a fan of the game mechanics, though. On the other hand, I'm a fan of 40k RPG!

(And to make it worse, I even buy the books even though I'm never going to use the system! Freak I am. )

Kage

LeBlanc13 said:

I meant BT fanboys. The wording could've been better.

That said though, I will say that I prefer, by far, the original Black Industries material over most of the stuff FFG has designed. I love DH, but RT leaves a bad taste in my mouth (hate the character creation and advance systems, and really can't stand how they left half the elements of 40k space combat out of the core book). I've been looking forward to DW ever since the plans for it it were announced back in the days of Black Industries, and while I'm glad FFG is still doing it, I'm starting to suspect that, as with RT and *puke* Ascension, they're taking the wrong direction.

Rather happy to see the Templars in the book. Still hoping to see an option for "Make you own chapter" feature to be in the book. It would be rather nice to see the Blood Angels in the book but I'm not sure how well they would fit. Not that they don't hate aliens but more to the fact of the Black Rage affecting them. Just don't see it working out too well with the RP spec, but I'm sure FFG would be able to make it work. Though I am hoping to see White Scars more than the Blood Angels.

warpdancer said:

Chapters purged by the inquisition:

The Damned Company of Lord Caustos (Survivors fled to become CSMs)

Flame Falcons (eventually purged by the Grey Knights under orders from Ordo Hereticus[?])

Relictors (the second time they were brought to heel was by the Inquisition)

Grey Slayers (see intro to Slaves to Darkness)

Chapters declaired traitoris that fled:

Knights of Blood (mostly escaped, are belived to have refused to join CSMs)

Sons of Malice (killed Inquisitor and convent of Soroitas that tried to confront them. Fled to eye of terror in face of larger Inq force.)

Soul Drinkers (go read books)

Atheosis said:

That only works as a theory if everyone agrees that it's something that would be considered prime material. Personally I'm hoping it'll be stuck in with the GM screen, so I don't have to buy it. That's where you usually find crap rules that only a minority of the fanbase scream for.

macd21 said:

So you don't want it, and therefore only an insignificant minority of players do. That's excellent logic.

Atheosis said:

With you on that Atheosis, I've heard more peole say they'd like to be able to make their own chapter than most anything else. And I know all my GM friends and players are wanting that power. And the only reason they are "crap rules" is because they cram them onto the GM screen. If fleshed out, as you find in house rules forums and sites all over, the rules from the GM screens are great when give the space they deserve.