New Deathwatch Designer Diary: Chapters of the Deathwatch, Part 4

By FFG Ross Watson, in Deathwatch

Atheosis said:

Wilfred Owen said:

You know, we're going to have the same arguments every time a chapter is announced. I feel sorry for FFGs, but they have the courage to do what they believe in.

Some people need to practice the chant ' It's only a game ' gui%C3%B1o.gif

Yes it's only a game...

Why do we even discuss it? Why do we come to these forums at all? We should do something more substantial with our time don't you think?

After all, it's only a game...

You are being hyperbolic and sarcastic, when a more thoughtful post would have sufficed. I never said we cannot discuss the game; what I am trying to say is that people are too worked up over something which is not that important. So what if one's favourite chapter is not included? Or if the chapter creation rules will not be in the book? It doesn't matter so much to get really worked up about it. And that's not to say people are enraged or too upset. I just think if the book is likely to be 90% excellent, then we are worrying over something small.

Atheosis said:

So you don't want it, and therefore only an insignificant minority of players do. That's excellent logic.

No, I don't want it, and therefore I hope they stick it where they put other material I don't want and therefore won't have to buy.

I still can't understand why anyone would want a chapter generator. I can't imagine it containing anything you couldn't come up with yourselves. I know that if I want to add a new chapter to my Campaign I won't bother pulling out a set of random tables to do so. Come up with a concept, give the marines a special ability or two to reflect that and presto: new chapter.

It certainly isn't something that you need for the game and therefore should be relegated to a supplement, not included in the core.

macd21 said:

Atheosis said:

So you don't want it, and therefore only an insignificant minority of players do. That's excellent logic.

No, I don't want it, and therefore I hope they stick it where they put other material I don't want and therefore won't have to buy.

I still can't understand why anyone would want a chapter generator. I can't imagine it containing anything you couldn't come up with yourselves. I know that if I want to add a new chapter to my Campaign I won't bother pulling out a set of random tables to do so. Come up with a concept, give the marines a special ability or two to reflect that and presto: new chapter.

It certainly isn't something that you need for the game and therefore should be relegated to a supplement, not included in the core.

Couldn't this logic be used for the entire game? I mean couldn't we come up with rules for Deathwatch Marines ourselves? So really why should we even buy the game? The whole idea behind buying an RPG is not having to design everything yourself. What you're saying is like saying that there's no use for pre-generated monsters because you can create them all yourself. For that matter, why do we need an armory? Those should be pretty easy to come up with. And they certainly shouldn't include an intro adventure seeing as it's the GM's job to come up with that...

I hope I've made my point.

Atheosis said:

macd21 said:

Atheosis said:

So you don't want it, and therefore only an insignificant minority of players do. That's excellent logic.

No, I don't want it, and therefore I hope they stick it where they put other material I don't want and therefore won't have to buy.

I still can't understand why anyone would want a chapter generator. I can't imagine it containing anything you couldn't come up with yourselves. I know that if I want to add a new chapter to my Campaign I won't bother pulling out a set of random tables to do so. Come up with a concept, give the marines a special ability or two to reflect that and presto: new chapter.

It certainly isn't something that you need for the game and therefore should be relegated to a supplement, not included in the core.

Couldn't this logic be used for the entire game? I mean couldn't we come up with rules for Deathwatch Marines ourselves? So really why should we even buy the game? The whole idea behind buying an RPG is not having to design everything yourself. What you're saying is like saying that there's no use for pre-generated monsters because you can create them all yourself. For that matter, why do we need an armory? Those should be pretty easy to come up with. And they certainly shouldn't include an intro adventure seeing as it's the GM's job to come up with that...

I hope I've made my point.

Bravo my friend, bravo, I couldn’t have said it better myself and I was about to try, lol. After all the point is not that anyone *needs* the tools; just like you don’t need a hammer to build a house. Just use a piece of wood to drive the nails, but isn’t having a hammer better? It’s part of FFG’s job to make the game easy on GM’s (other wise no would want to be a GM and thus no one would buy the game because no one would ever play it) and having them do the work to create the mechanic so all I have to do is fling some dice to create the basics of a chapter which I can flesh out later is much easier.

So people are arguing about chapter(sigh). What about the statement "NEW MECHANICS"? Will it be compatible with Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader or woll we have some sh*tty Herohammer fantasy rpg 3ed?

Anonymus said:

So people are arguing about chapter(sigh). What about the statement "NEW MECHANICS"? Will it be compatible with Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader or woll we have some sh*tty Herohammer fantasy rpg 3ed?

First off, I'm fairly sure that you haven't played the Warhammer 3rd Ed RPG, because it's actually a fairly good game, in my opinion at least. Calling it "sh*tty" is selling it very short, and unless yours is an informed opinion, is useless to anyone who wants to know about the game.

As for the compatibility, it has been stated by Ross and Sam that the game will be using the same system as DH and RT.

Anonymus said:

So people are arguing about chapter(sigh). What about the statement "NEW MECHANICS"? Will it be compatible with Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader or woll we have some sh*tty Herohammer fantasy rpg 3ed?

When they started this project they made the statement that they are going to have all three groups (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch) were going to be compatible. Since they are using the percentile system for Deathwatch which they started in Dark Heresy and continued in Rogue Trader they will most likely be compatible. The percentile system is rather good at making itself compatible so long as you keep Talents and Traits in control. Now this is just a guess about them using the percentile system but since GW wants the systems to be compatible I'm thinking that they will keep in line with that. If you think about it from a marketing stance it makes more sense for them to use the same system for now to entice people to by books for three different lines instead of forcing people to purchase between two different systems.

Wilfred Owen said:

Atheosis said:

Wilfred Owen said:

You know, we're going to have the same arguments every time a chapter is announced. I feel sorry for FFGs, but they have the courage to do what they believe in.

Some people need to practice the chant ' It's only a game ' gui%C3%B1o.gif

Yes it's only a game...

Why do we even discuss it? Why do we come to these forums at all? We should do something more substantial with our time don't you think?

After all, it's only a game...

You are being hyperbolic and sarcastic, when a more thoughtful post would have sufficed. I never said we cannot discuss the game; what I am trying to say is that people are too worked up over something which is not that important. So what if one's favourite chapter is not included? Or if the chapter creation rules will not be in the book? It doesn't matter so much to get really worked up about it. And that's not to say people are enraged or too upset. I just think if the book is likely to be 90% excellent, then we are worrying over something small.

Wilfred Owen said:

Atheosis said:

Wilfred Owen said:

You know, we're going to have the same arguments every time a chapter is announced. I feel sorry for FFGs, but they have the courage to do what they believe in.

Some people need to practice the chant ' It's only a game ' gui%C3%B1o.gif

Yes it's only a game...

Why do we even discuss it? Why do we come to these forums at all? We should do something more substantial with our time don't you think?

After all, it's only a game...

You are being hyperbolic and sarcastic, when a more thoughtful post would have sufficed. I never said we cannot discuss the game; what I am trying to say is that people are too worked up over something which is not that important. So what if one's favourite chapter is not included? Or if the chapter creation rules will not be in the book? It doesn't matter so much to get really worked up about it. And that's not to say people are enraged or too upset. I just think if the book is likely to be 90% excellent, then we are worrying over something small.

Well thats just great......Now we have people thats sarcastic and pessimistic infecting the holy emperors forums!! Call up the commissars!!(muffled sound in the background)Err..apparently there already busy rounding up all the heretics on the Dark Heresy boards.Very well;we will just have to round up these scum and send them as target practice for the Calth 3rd Infantry and we will see how that like that!

Wilfred Owen said:

Atheosis said:

Wilfred Owen said:

You know, we're going to have the same arguments every time a chapter is announced. I feel sorry for FFGs, but they have the courage to do what they believe in.

Some people need to practice the chant ' It's only a game ' gui%C3%B1o.gif

Yes it's only a game...

Why do we even discuss it? Why do we come to these forums at all? We should do something more substantial with our time don't you think?

After all, it's only a game...

You are being hyperbolic and sarcastic, when a more thoughtful post would have sufficed. I never said we cannot discuss the game; what I am trying to say is that people are too worked up over something which is not that important. So what if one's favourite chapter is not included? Or if the chapter creation rules will not be in the book? It doesn't matter so much to get really worked up about it. And that's not to say people are enraged or too upset. I just think if the book is likely to be 90% excellent, then we are worrying over something small.

Chances are 90% that it's going to be excellent? You have a lot more faith in FFG than I do. After Ascension I am one skeptical consumer when it comes to their products, especially high-level stuff.

Of course it's going to be compatible. They want people who prefer each game line to be buying the same supplements. I don't like DH, but I need the Inquisitor's Handbook for Rogue Trader because it has nifty guns and so forth in it. You don't want to split up the base of people who buy your supplements too much, that's what killed TSR back in the day. They focused too much on setting-specific supplements, and no table that played Greyhawk wanted to buy a Forgotten Realms book. It sliced up their player-base and they couldn't sell enough of a given supplement to turn a profit on it.

Now, if they can start putting out splatbooks (which the players buy for their character), then they'll be rolling in it. Imagine the equivalent of the little softcover clanbooks that WW used to put out, except for WH40K rpgs. You could have a little Man of Steel book that covers DH AdMech guys, RT Explorators, and maybe DW Iron Hands, if they get included. Now you've got something that anyone who plays that type of character wants, and you sell it to people playing all three gamelines. Actually, probably anyone who wants to get borged-up will buy it, and that's a lot of players.

All right. Long time lurker, first time poster here.

I don't want this to be construed as any type of attack on one's character, but I simply need to know: Atheosis. Are you a troll? You seem like a troll. Your presence in nearly every thread here claiming you hate what FFG is doing, and only using the same tired arguments are really leading me to believe you are. What seem like personal, snarky attacks on anyone who disagrees with you appear to be more evidence supporting your trolling status.

Also, I want to know, what do you need in a chapter creation section? I'm pretty sure there would be NO mechanical difference between, say, an Ultrasmurf and one of its successors. All they really need are nine(maybe ten) chapters total. One for each of the first founding chapters(their successors should have no mechanical differences, only the fluff would be different), and maybe throw in an option for making the character originate from a cursed twenty-first founding chapter.

Lord Richter Castus said:

All right. Long time lurker, first time poster here.

I don't want this to be construed as any type of attack on one's character, but I simply need to know: Atheosis. Are you a troll? You seem like a troll. Your presence in nearly every thread here claiming you hate what FFG is doing, and only using the same tired arguments are really leading me to believe you are. What seem like personal, snarky attacks on anyone who disagrees with you appear to be more evidence supporting your trolling status.

Also, I want to know, what do you need in a chapter creation section? I'm pretty sure there would be NO mechanical difference between, say, an Ultrasmurf and one of its successors. All they really need are nine(maybe ten) chapters total. One for each of the first founding chapters(their successors should have no mechanical differences, only the fluff would be different), and maybe throw in an option for making the character originate from a cursed twenty-first founding chapter.

Please show me the posts that were troll-like...

I'm simply voicing criticisms of the way I see things going. I haven't been attacking people personally (though, as with your post, the same can't be said of some of those who disagree with me). Nor am I making statements without backing them up with reasoned arguments. Apparently you disagree with my opinions. That's cool. The fact that we disagree doesn't make me a troll. In fact, I wonder if you actually know what a forum troll is actually like.

I mean it's really rather simple: I've been an avid fan of 40k Roleplay since Black Industries announced that DH was under development, and I loved what they did with DH and the early supplements. Then FFG took over and things have been steadily on the decline quality-wise ever since. Back when 40k Roleplay was announced it was stated that there would be three stand-alone games: DH, RT, and DW. Personally the one I was most looking forward to was DW, and it has been ever since. Only between the design announcements FFG has made and the catastrophe of Ascension (IMO) I'm starting to become progressively concerned about the direction they're taking with the game. This being a public forum I can voice my concerns if I like, that's what such things are for. They aren't just to talk about how great FFG is.

As far as your argument goes, please refer to many, many other posts regarding the topic. I've shot that argument down more times than I care to count, and I really don't care to keep doing so.

Oh and PS, don't ask someone if they're a troll if you don't want it to be construed as an attack on their character. lengua.gif

Lord Richter Castus said:

All right. Long time lurker, first time poster here.

I don't want this to be construed as any type of attack on one's character, but I simply need to know: Atheosis. Are you a troll? You seem like a troll. Your presence in nearly every thread here claiming you hate what FFG is doing, and only using the same tired arguments are really leading me to believe you are. What seem like personal, snarky attacks on anyone who disagrees with you appear to be more evidence supporting your trolling status.

aplauso.gif

Lord Richter Castus said:

All right. Long time lurker, first time poster here.

I don't want this to be construed as any type of attack on one's character, but I simply need to know: Atheosis. Are you a troll? You seem like a troll. Your presence in nearly every thread here claiming you hate what FFG is doing, and only using the same tired arguments are really leading me to believe you are. What seem like personal, snarky attacks on anyone who disagrees with you appear to be more evidence supporting your trolling status.

Also, I want to know, what do you need in a chapter creation section? I'm pretty sure there would be NO mechanical difference between, say, an Ultrasmurf and one of its successors. All they really need are nine(maybe ten) chapters total. One for each of the first founding chapters(their successors should have no mechanical differences, only the fluff would be different), and maybe throw in an option for making the character originate from a cursed twenty-first founding chapter.

Pretty rich being a first time poster, making a first time post that attacks another poster directly ... and in that attack to accuse that other person of being a troll. sorpresa.gif

Re your second paragraph, FFG themselves accept the need for a Chapter creation section/rules, they will be including such a section in a later book. Rarely for them, they have stated as much. So you find yourself in conflict with FFG on that point, not just those of us who think it better to start the game off with such rules, rather than limit players to a scant handful of potential Chapters.

As has been said here more times than I could possibly begin to count, successor Chapters are often radically different to their founding Chapters. Atheosis, a very knowledgeable poster on this subject can doubtless provide you with many examples.

Atheosis said:

Couldn't this logic be used for the entire game? I mean couldn't we come up with rules for Deathwatch Marines ourselves? So really why should we even buy the game? The whole idea behind buying an RPG is not having to design everything yourself. What you're saying is like saying that there's no use for pre-generated monsters because you can create them all yourself. For that matter, why do we need an armory? Those should be pretty easy to come up with. And they certainly shouldn't include an intro adventure seeing as it's the GM's job to come up with that...

No, this logic couldn't be used for the entire game. A series of random tables for creating your own chapter is not the same as a presentation of a chapter's history and culture with accompanying stats. I don't need a chapter generator to come up with rules for playing a Space Marine, any more than I needed the xenos generator to come up with new xenos. On the other hand I appreciated the Creatures Anathema, because it provided me with new monsters that served as inspiration for future game sessions.

Likewise we don't have a 'weapon generator' for creating new weapons, or an 'adventure generator' for creating new adventures. They don't really add anything to the game.

Seriously - what do you expect to be in the Chapter generator that will actually help you generate a new chapter? If you have a concept for a new chapter in mind, how is the generator going to help you create it? The most important element has already been accomplished - coming up with the concept. Is the generator going to come up with the chapter history? Rites of Initiation? Legendary heroes of the chapters past? Will there be a 'Dark Secret' table, or a 'Heroic Reputation' table?

macd21 said:

Atheosis said:

Couldn't this logic be used for the entire game? I mean couldn't we come up with rules for Deathwatch Marines ourselves? So really why should we even buy the game? The whole idea behind buying an RPG is not having to design everything yourself. What you're saying is like saying that there's no use for pre-generated monsters because you can create them all yourself. For that matter, why do we need an armory? Those should be pretty easy to come up with. And they certainly shouldn't include an intro adventure seeing as it's the GM's job to come up with that...

No, this logic couldn't be used for the entire game. A series of random tables for creating your own chapter is not the same as a presentation of a chapter's history and culture with accompanying stats. I don't need a chapter generator to come up with rules for playing a Space Marine, any more than I needed the xenos generator to come up with new xenos. On the other hand I appreciated the Creatures Anathema, because it provided me with new monsters that served as inspiration for future game sessions.

Likewise we don't have a 'weapon generator' for creating new weapons, or an 'adventure generator' for creating new adventures. They don't really add anything to the game.

Seriously - what do you expect to be in the Chapter generator that will actually help you generate a new chapter? If you have a concept for a new chapter in mind, how is the generator going to help you create it? The most important element has already been accomplished - coming up with the concept. Is the generator going to come up with the chapter history? Rites of Initiation? Legendary heroes of the chapters past? Will there be a 'Dark Secret' table, or a 'Heroic Reputation' table?

Random tables? That's not at all how I would go about designing a Chapter creation system, and I really hope that isn't what FFG does. Put very simply I would use a system not unlike the old traits system in the 4th edition Space Marines codex (though much more fleshed out). And this wouldn't be to simply create homebrew Chapters, but to represent the all the canon Chapters not included among the six they've chosen to focus on. In essence you would have a suite of traits, skills, talents, and other characteristics, both negative and positive, that would go under say "Fierce" or "Zealous" or whatever (and a list of canon Chapters with suggested choices would be ideal). With a system like that, my players could represent whatever Chapter they want, whether it be Raven Guard or their own creation without me having to come up with it all on my own every time they want to play a Chapter not in the book (and let's be honest the short list of six isn't going to keep very many people happy for long). Obviously the details of the Chapter's history would be up to my player (and myself) to come up with just like character background in all RPGs, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to come up with everything.

If they come out with a system like the Xenos generator then I would actually agree with you on it being a complete waste. That was some garbage.

Wel, part of the problem, other then 'an inconveinent fluff' is that as has been observed: the system works well for regular human level play, but at higher power levels starts to break down.

Unless they launch a 'Demon Prince' or 'Primarch!" game, it's not going to get much bigger then space marines...

Atheosis said:

Chances are 90% that it's going to be excellent? You have a lot more faith in FFG than I do. After Ascension I am one skeptical consumer when it comes to their products, especially high-level stuff.

No offence, but I don't think Ascension was that bad a product. We're talking opinions here, so you can't reason that the book was objectively bad. Besides, how is one book being sub-par (in your opinion) mean that all the products will be treated with suspicion? FFGs have released some excellent books, and if Ascension was truly weak, then it's odd to become so sceptical. It would like saying a car company's new cars should be viewed suspiciously because one car was criticised.

No one is saying you cannot criticise FFGs' products, but Deathwatch is not even out yet. Let's give them a chance. :)

MILLANDSON said:

First off, I'm fairly sure that you haven't played the Warhammer 3rd Ed RPG, because it's actually a fairly good game, in my opinion at least. Calling it "sh*tty" is selling it very short, and unless yours is an informed opinion, is useless to anyone who wants to know about the game.

Well thats like... your OPINION man. And you did not have to answer to it. Good day.

Something of curiosity to me is what they will do with the psychic system. I have only read the Dark Heresy psychic section so far. I haven't poured through Rogue Trader's section on it yet but I heard reviewers say they made slight changes and improvements in it. I also read in reviews of the Ascension book that they now use the Rogue Trader's rules. While we don't know the answer to the following question: Do you think they will stick with the RT psychic rules or move to a new and different system for Deathwatch?

Wilfred Owen said:

Atheosis said:

Chances are 90% that it's going to be excellent? You have a lot more faith in FFG than I do. After Ascension I am one skeptical consumer when it comes to their products, especially high-level stuff.

No offence, but I don't think Ascension was that bad a product. We're talking opinions here, so you can't reason that the book was objectively bad. Besides, how is one book being sub-par (in your opinion) mean that all the products will be treated with suspicion? FFGs have released some excellent books, and if Ascension was truly weak, then it's odd to become so sceptical. It would like saying a car company's new cars should be viewed suspiciously because one car was criticised.

No one is saying you cannot criticise FFGs' products, but Deathwatch is not even out yet. Let's give them a chance. :)

Of course it's only my opinion. I also didn't particularly like a lot within Rogue Trader (though I love the idea of it). As I said earlier I tend to feel FFG just hasn't continued at the same level that Black Industries started all of this on. That's simply how I feel. And that's why I'm concerned about how DW goes.

I'm curious. How do you think Ascension isn't a bad product? Career design is completely uneven. Certain character builds can pretty much go Deathstar on anything while others are simply good at making friends. The ascended psychic powers aren't as powerful as basic psychic powers in certain cases. The system hands out the unnatural trait like candy, even though it often makes no sense and is completely overpowered. And so forth and so on. All of this just smacks of poor game design to me. Seeing as it is likely that Ascension is roughly on the same level as DW, all of this concerns me.

Oh and I'm trying to stay open-minded with DW, but each announcement they make only seems to reaffirm my misgivings.

Anyway I think I'm done posting on this topic. I've spoken my mind, now to move on.

nastybutler said:

Something of curiosity to me is what they will do with the psychic system. I have only read the Dark Heresy psychic section so far. I haven't poured through Rogue Trader's section on it yet but I heard reviewers say they made slight changes and improvements in it. I also read in reviews of the Ascension book that they now use the Rogue Trader's rules. While we don't know the answer to the following question: Do you think they will stick with the RT psychic rules or move to a new and different system for Deathwatch?

Nope, Ascension doesn't use the RT psychic rules, it just took the concept of fettered, unfettered and pushed casting of powers. The systems are still completely different (and I prefer the FFG developed Rogue Trader psyker system over the Black Industries Dark Heresy system a lot).

nastybutler said:

Do you think they will stick with the RT psychic rules or move to a new and different system for Deathwatch?

I really hope they stick with something close to if not identical to RT. I found the fettered/unfettered/push to be a much better representation of trained psykers as presented in the fiction, and it's also much cleaner. In fact, if I ever played a DH psyker again, I'd want to use RT-style rules for my powers.

Atheosis said:

Atheosis said:

Random tables? That's not at all how I would go about designing a Chapter creation system, and I really hope that isn't what FFG does. Put very simply I would use a system not unlike the old traits system in the 4th edition Space Marines codex (though much more fleshed out). And this wouldn't be to simply create homebrew Chapters, but to represent the all the canon Chapters not included among the six they've chosen to focus on. In essence you would have a suite of traits, skills, talents, and other characteristics, both negative and positive, that would go under say "Fierce" or "Zealous" or whatever (and a list of canon Chapters with suggested choices would be ideal). With a system like that, my players could represent whatever Chapter they want, whether it be Raven Guard or their own creation without me having to come up with it all on my own every time they want to play a Chapter not in the book (and let's be honest the short list of six isn't going to keep very many people happy for long). Obviously the details of the Chapter's history would be up to my player (and myself) to come up with just like character background in all RPGs, but it'd be nice if I didn't have to come up with everything.

If they come out with a system like the Xenos generator then I would actually agree with you on it being a complete waste. That was some garbage.

Yeah, I agree Atheosis, that's roughly along the lines I was thinking too. Simply put, it should be a system that allows pcs to come from ANY Chapter, whether one established in fluff, or theoretically one the GM might want to invent. So that there would be a choice for starting pcs from 1000 Chapters ... rather than a piffling 6.

Why would anyone not want the game to provide that from the get-go?

Adam France said:

Why would anyone not want the game to provide that from the get-go?

Because the core book absolutely has to be able to be used by someone completely and utterly new to the entire Warhammer 40k universe. Not everyone who will want to play Deathwatch is as versed in the 40k setting as some of us, if they know it at all.

What use, to a player who has never encountered the 40k setting before, is a system to make your own chapter at the expense of the "piddling 6 chapters"? That doesn't help to cover what a chapter is, what it's history is, what makes them different or anything. It's just rules, then, on how to make your character cool and uber, which removes the entire point of being able to play a Space Marine from a heroic linage of super-human soldiers, the foremost soldiers of the Imperium. If they don't have a basic grasp of the history of some of the widest known Chapters, how are they to develop their characters in a way that fits in with the 40k setting?

And no, "Go read Lexicanum" isn't a valid response, because why should they? That stuff should be in the core book, because it's essential. A "make your own chapter" system, for the vast majority of people new to the setting, is effectively useless and blocks their entry into the game and setting.

The core book is for the core essentials needed by everyone and accessable to everyone. Supplements are where you go for greater variety and the more complex stuff. That's why the "piddling 6 chapters" are more important, in a core rulebook, than a "make your own chapter system".

Having the chapter-generator stuff in the book rather than the 6 chapters it will contain essentially puts a "you must know this much about 40k and the Space Marines before playing" sign on the front of the book before you open it, and that would kill this game fast as anything. If it's not accessable to non-40k players, it's not accessable to a huge chunk of the potential customer market, and it makes it even more of a niche product than RPGs already are, and make it into a game that will wither and die without the fresh blood every RPG needs to stay profitable and therefore supported.