New Deathwatch Designer Diary: Chapters of the Deathwatch, Part 4

By FFG Ross Watson, in Deathwatch

Theofonias said:

The Wyzard said:

FFG's job is to provide setting and rules that don't make the GM's job actively harder. That's what's at issue. It's not that the setting is nonsense, it's that the setting of an RPG should be designed with having actual people play it at real tables and have a good time. If your setting makes it harder to achieve that goal, then you need to rethink your approach.

The rules and the setting (that have been provided) do not make the GM's job actively harder. What you are arguing is that a piece of fluff will make this a roleplaying nightmare. I think that is completely false. Fluff does not dictate the interactions of players, the players and GM (to a lesser degree) do.

You're excluding a vast middle and attacking a strawman.

Theofonias said:

The Wyzard said:

FFG's job is to provide setting and rules that don't make the GM's job actively harder. That's what's at issue. It's not that the setting is nonsense, it's that the setting of an RPG should be designed with having actual people play it at real tables and have a good time. If your setting makes it harder to achieve that goal, then you need to rethink your approach.

The rules and the setting (that have been provided) do not make the GM's job actively harder. What you are arguing is that a piece of fluff will make this a roleplaying nightmare. I think that is completely false. Fluff does not dictate the interactions of players, the players and GM (to a lesser degree) do.

That's like saying alignment doesn't dictate the interactions of PCs in D&D. The fact of the matter is it does. When the source material says certain types of characters act a certain way, most players will emulate that at least to a degree. How do you expect interactions between BT PCs and Librarian PCs are going to play out? If you don't foresee player conflict coming from that, then you must know how to breathe sand.

Atheosis said:

That's like saying alignment doesn't dictate the interactions of PCs in D&D. The fact of the matter is it does. When the source material says certain types of characters act a certain way, most players will emulate that at least to a degree. How do you expect interactions between BT PCs and Librarian PCs are going to play out? If you don't foresee player conflict coming from that, then you must know how to breathe sand.

That's not a comparison at all. Alignment had an integral part in the game. Protection vs Evil/Good, +10 damage vs Evil/Good creatures, etc. That was part of the rule system and not fluff. No, what I'm saying is something akin to say that Dwarfs are grumpy alcoholics. Does that mean every dwarf you came across was a constantly stewed jerk? No, it meant that it gave a generalization of the race as a whole. Being that there are over a thousand BTs there is room for more than just the anti-Roleplay matter that you are making it out to be.

Character conflict is a part of roleplaying. Black Templars aren't fanatical in the sense that they will attack Librarians as they are not stupid. They still use non-combat psykers such as Astropaths and Navigators. And no, the multi-lung does not allow for breathing of sand, just water.

Theofonias said:

Atheosis said:

That's like saying alignment doesn't dictate the interactions of PCs in D&D. The fact of the matter is it does. When the source material says certain types of characters act a certain way, most players will emulate that at least to a degree. How do you expect interactions between BT PCs and Librarian PCs are going to play out? If you don't foresee player conflict coming from that, then you must know how to breathe sand.

That's not a comparison at all. Alignment had an integral part in the game. Protection vs Evil/Good, +10 damage vs Evil/Good creatures, etc. That was part of the rule system and not fluff. No, what I'm saying is something akin to say that Dwarfs are grumpy alcoholics. Does that mean every dwarf you came across was a constantly stewed jerk? No, it meant that it gave a generalization of the race as a whole. Being that there are over a thousand BTs there is room for more than just the anti-Roleplay matter that you are making it out to be.

Character conflict is a part of roleplaying. Black Templars aren't fanatical in the sense that they will attack Librarians as they are not stupid. They still use non-combat psykers such as Astropaths and Navigators. And no, the multi-lung does not allow for breathing of sand, just water.

Yes character conflict is a part of roleplaying, and I'm beginning to think it's going to be the majority of the roleplaying in DW.

I'm still more worried, and entertained by the thought, of aving Dark Angels and Space Worlfs in the same room before even thinking at Black Templars and their dislike for psykers =P

Lucius Valerius said:

I'm still more worried, and entertained by the thought, of aving Dark Angels and Space Worlfs in the same room before even thinking at Black Templars and their dislike for psykers =P

Now imagine a kill-team composed of a Dark Angel, a Space Wolf, a Black Templar, and an Ultramarine Librarian... partido_risa.gif

Atheosis said:

Now imagine a kill-team composed of a Dark Angel, a Space Wolf, a Black Templar, and an Ultramarine Librarian... partido_risa.gif

This is definitely a fun lot of interaction off mission, that's for sure. But when the chips are down and the bolt rounds are flying, you focus on the mission, yes? gui%C3%B1o.gif

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

This is definitely a fun lot of interaction off mission, that's for sure. But when the chips are down and the bolt rounds are flying, you focus on the mission, yes? gui%C3%B1o.gif

Of course; killing aliens is far more important than in-fighting.

Over a year ago, using pre-generated characters of my own devising, I ran a Deathwatch-themed oneshot which had a similar composition of warriors. The Black Templar barely talked to anyone outside of the mission. The Space Wolf and the Dark Angels Librarian, however, started the session inside the sparring cage of the strike cruiser they were stationed on, stripped out of their armour, settling the honour of their chapter with their fists.

Alas, the Space Wolf was significantly bigger, stronger and tougher than the Dark Angel, who had promised not to use his powers for so petty a matter. The Dark Angel didn't fare well in that brawl.

Aajav-Khan said:

Lucius Valerius said:

Haven't you realized all the chapters so far have their own Codex ? Guess who's next =P

Exactly. We might just as well skip the BA step and go for the thing that we really want to know: the "mystery Chapter number 6".

[/quote

THis is the novel chapter that doesn't have ts own tabletop codex, right? When they have already introduced such a chapter into DH, with the Deathwatch veteran from Hammers of Retribution introduced for one of the Purge the Unclean adventures then you have to consider that a big ol' candidate, surely....

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Brother Praetus said:

This is definitely a fun lot of interaction off mission, that's for sure. But when the chips are down and the bolt rounds are flying, you focus on the mission, yes? gui%C3%B1o.gif

Of course; killing aliens is far more important than in-fighting.

Over a year ago, using pre-generated characters of my own devising, I ran a Deathwatch-themed oneshot which had a similar composition of warriors. The Black Templar barely talked to anyone outside of the mission. The Space Wolf and the Dark Angels Librarian, however, started the session inside the sparring cage of the strike cruiser they were stationed on, stripped out of their armour, settling the honour of their chapter with their fists.

Alas, the Space Wolf was significantly bigger, stronger and tougher than the Dark Angel, who had promised not to use his powers for so petty a matter. The Dark Angel didn't fare well in that brawl.

For a one-off that might work, for a campaign ... I tend to suspect it would get real old, real quick.

Personally I think BT's don't work well for DW candidates, especially not as one of the first (and initially) only 6 Chapters pcs will be able to be from.

This Chapter being in definitely smells of being GW wanting to sell more codexes, rather than being a smart thematic decision for the game.

Adam France said:

This Chapter being in definitely smells of being GW wanting to sell more codexes, rather than being a smart thematic decision for the game.

Sure does. I cannot see why with their history and disposition why the BTs were a "good" choice. Save that GW wants the folk at FFG working on things that will move their Codex chapter minis. With the releases recently for SW and BR I can only expect the others of the 5 codex chapters will get a new mini line. And that means there will be BTs need a sellin.

Alexis

*smiles*

It is very possible that the SW and the DA at least develop a professional and comrades in arms attitude, doing their ritual duels once every day week, month, mission etc

The BT could be work as well or very worse, i played once a knight iwith magophobia in a group with a wizard, it worked, the character never gave anything off the wizards magic, magical information, support etc and he didn´t accept spells cast on him, but both behaved civilced.

A BT could do the same, he could also run for pitchforks and torches but that is a player problem not a character problem.

Cailieg said:

Sure does. I cannot see why with their history and disposition why the BTs were a "good" choice.

Black Templars are Crusaders.

The Deathwatch game is set during a crusade.

Makes perfect sense to me!

I'm still trying to picture the BT not being interrogated by the Inquisition. There might not be much bad blood between BT and Xenos, but Hereticus has been activly trying to capture and interrogate BT's for a long time now... (See codex, fluff, and several of the old black templar scenarios. Let us recall the only person to put a Black Templar in a Deathwatch squad... was CS Goto.)

A smurf and a BT might be funny dialogue about the Codex Astartes. Since one almost ignores it, and one worships it.

I'm still trying to picture the BT not being interrogated by the Inquisition.

The Inquisition has a strong suspicion that the BT are way more numerous than any other Loyalist Chapter. The WH40K BT Codex slips a questimate of 5-6 thousand. If this is to be believed, the BT are the closest equivalent to a Pre- Codex Astartes Legion in existence. Is it any surprise that the Inquisition is worried? The whole point of the Post-Heresy reorganization was to prevent any single person ( Primarch, General, Admiral etc ) of having too much power in his hands.

The reason why the Inquisition has not taken a more active interest on the BT is because 1) they are loyal, 2) spread over a huge area and 3) always on the move.

Let us recall the only person to put a Black Templar in a Deathwatch squad... was CS Goto.)

Oh dear lengua.gif .

A smurf and a BT might be funny dialogue about the Codex Astartes. Since one almost ignores it, and one worships it.

Yeah. Whoever happens to be the cell leader should keep the members concentrated on the mission at hand. If the members get a chance to "talk politics" the situation might turn...interesting.

It also occurs to me, though I'm not aware of any official lore one way or the other, that Black Templars aren't really going to get along with Space Wolves as they are clearly rather mutated from the Astartes norm. Black Templars loathe mutants just as they loathe psykers.

Just think of a Rune Priest and Black Templar in the same kill-team...

I don't see a problem with the Black Templars, other than being a predictable choice.

1) Elements of the Inquisition have suspicions about almost everybody, including the Inquisition. It's not a problem for most members of the Ordo Xenos, who are focused on killing aliens, and for the Black Templars it would be a sacred obligation.

2) Personality conflicts help create roleplaying. By sacred oath, the members of the Deathwatch are brothers. As Astartes, they are sworn defenders of mankind. Dealing with the conflict between the character's prejudices and their sworn duty is a source of both internal and external conflict and thus roleplaying. The Black Templar and the Space Wolf may despise each other, but what happens when they must depend upon each other absolutely or fail and doom millions of human beings? Or when the despicable psyker not only saves the Black Templar's life, but saves the team from defeat? Obligation and recognition of accomplishment wars with prejudice. Plenty of room for good roleplaying here.

Remember the character's are playing space marines, not members of street gangs or warring tribes. They are tied to each other and their mission by almost unbreakable chains. Sure the Dark Angel is a jerk, but if he's right 9/10 then maybe he should be team leader. That won't mean the Space Wolf won't be rough on him during sparring. And that's before we touch the issue of different rites and rituals.

BaronIveagh said:

I'm still trying to picture the BT not being interrogated by the Inquisition. ....., but Hereticus has been activly trying to capture and interrogate BT's for a long time now...

The BT are AFAIK split up in different crusade forces

... please note: the Inquisition can, has, and does, purge Space Marine chapters. For those wishing to read about the big I hunting Space Marines, pick up Soul Drinkers Omnibus.

Think on it like this: The Black Templar's numbers are like the existance of the Fallen. It's the chapter's dirty little secret that might get them all killed. The difference is that very few people in the Inquisition suspect the existance of the Fallen, while a bunch suspect the BTs are fudging their number. The problem is if they ever found out how far from 1k battlebrothers they are, there would be excrement to fan contact. (Play through GW's excellent little 'A Matter of Faith' scenario for the BT's trying ot cover this up by slaughtering [or trying to slaughter] ordo Hereticus forces without deploying their full numbers)

The Wyzard said:

Also, for real, I'm going to play a Black Templar LIbrarian. You heard me.

"What? That makes no sense! The Black Templar hate psykers!"

"Why do you think they sent his ass to the Deathwatch?"

This made me laugh a lot. Simple and funny and totally against any and all lore, but I love it. Not hat I would ever let my players do it, I’m as close to a real life Commissar as you get about the lore in 40K, but I think it’s very funny.

But on topic, the Black Templar are my favorite Chapter besides the one I made up. I love that they are included and could not be happier. I’ve noticed a lot of people are not happy however and want to address this a bit. Just give my two cents (or twenty dollars with how long it seems to have taken, lol). I think FFG picked chapters based a set of criteria and when we lay that out we see why they choose who they did. Let me postulate as to that criteria (not in any particular order and if you read it all I’d be surprised, lol):
1. It must be a Chapter people know. That is to say people who perhaps are not as involved in 40K but have a general knowledge of the setting (many of my friends fit this and know all the listed chapters so far), and are aware of the chosen Chapter; but if they included, say, the Scythes of the Emperor they wouldn’t know who they are and why they hate the Tyranids so much. Even though the reason for their hate is the same as the Ultras of which they are fully aware.
2. Chapter must have some established background. Not all, perhaps, but most (say 5 of the 6). Otherwise FFG has to build 6 Chapters well enough to give a player the idea of who they are, where they are from, what they feel about other groups in the Imperium, and build a whole background such as famous battles and wars among other things. This includes years of work for 6 whole chapters with little or no background at the outset (Remember GW has been building the included Chapters for decades and we still don’t know everything about them to imagine them in an RPG styling) especially when they must also make a section of the galaxy and rules for all of it. The GW backdrop, however, is well established and those of us who know the full setting will be able to smell shoddy work a mile away. By picking Chapters that are well known and are well established (with a codex especially) it allows them to focus on the setting of the game (where it is set in the universe and what’s happening), the unique rules for the game, and they could possibly even make one wholly new Chapter of their own design.
3. Are they a popular Chapter who players will want to use? Thus far all the Chapters listed are among the most popular. True people tend to drift from the Ultras after getting into the tabletop but they are the most well known and almost all, if not every, player has painted an Ultra at least once. These Chapters are not popular because they have a codex they have a codex because they are popular.
4. Are these Chapters sufficiently different from one another to allow players to feel unique amongst an otherwise uniform group (Space Marines), yet also similar enough that they can work together in a common manner? Or in other words, is there enough difference between option A and B that the player can see which appeals to them but also enough the same that a player may choose to go back and play the other without having to learn a whole new set of rules and lore? The answer is yes. If you look at those listed so far compared to each other, and not all Space Marines, you see this. An example is this, imagine a person who knows nothing about 40K (and I mean nothing at all) sees Deathwatch, the new RPG, on a shelf at a book store. Intrigued by the cover picks it up; are the options for the character clearly all from the same ‘cast,’ that is Space Marine; yet different enough to peak the players interest to read farther? I believe the answer is an emphatic yes. We who know the lore may argue against this but remember, most unknown Named Chapters if fleshed out by a company such as GW or FFG would come out sounding like Ultra or Fist knockoffs or just be so strange to compete with the likes of the Wolves and Angles (both kinds) as to become absurd.

I’ll end my little spiel here. If you read it all you have my thanks and if you didn’t that’s okay.

I have no issue with a psychic Black Templar. They're sure to exist - possibly a latent ability or well-hidden - but they don't have actual Librarians, so life as psyker within the BT's would be quite difficult. :)

Anyway, Blood Angels next week and then maybe we'll find out who the FFG Homebrew Chapter is, or find out more about how the game works.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:


Anyway, Blood Angels next week and then maybe we'll find out who the FFG Homebrew Chapter is, or find out more about how the game works.

I'm still mostly expecting the Hammers of Retribution to be the FFG Homebrew. They may fit in, or they may not. Ultimately, though, I've got what I want most already confirmed.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Cailieg said:

Sure does. I cannot see why with their history and disposition why the BTs were a "good" choice. Save that GW wants the folk at FFG working on things that will move their Codex chapter minis.

Personally, I think it's more the other way around.

A significant portion of players coming to Deathwatch will be Marine players, who will in turn probably have a favourite Chapter. By covering all those who have major representation in the wargame (in the form of a codex and a miniatures range), then many of those players will be able to play a Marine of the same Chapter they field in the wargame. Certainly, it seems to be resolving itself that way where I live

BaronIveagh said:

... please note: the Inquisition can, has, and does, purge Space Marine chapters. For those wishing to read about the big I hunting Space Marines, pick up Soul Drinkers Omnibus.

Remember that the SW stood up to Armaggedon genocid, that Uriel Ventris threatened Kryptman with dead, that the DA have a history of killing Is,

Yes the Is have purged chapters, when the Grey Knights and other Chapters supported it

Is were killed without rection or the only reaction was because another I investigated coincidally the same case , read Eisenhorn.or the Inquisition war saga

The Is power lies in the authority that others defer to them, if that does not happen they´re very alone in a very cold, horrible and dagerous Universe.

There are three parts of the humanity there authority is very limited, Navigators, Mechanicus and Space Marines

warpdancer said:

BaronIveagh said:

... please note: the Inquisition can, has, and does, purge Space Marine chapters. For those wishing to read about the big I hunting Space Marines, pick up Soul Drinkers Omnibus.

Tell me one purge who wasn´t done by SM?

Remember that the SW stood up to Armaggedon genocid, that Uriel Ventris threatened Kryptman with dead, that the DA have a history of killing Is,

Yes the Is have purged chapters, when the Grey Knights and other Chapters supported it

Is were killed without rection or the only reaction was because another I investigated coincidally the same case , read Eisenhorn.or the Inquisition war saga

The Is power lies in the authority that others defer to them, if that does not happen they´re very alone in a very cold, horrible and dagerous Universe.

There are three parts of the humanity there authority is very limited, Navigators, Mechanicus and Space Marines

I pretty much agree with you. For an Inquisitor to go after a Space Marine Chapter he generally needs solid evidence and/or the backing of a lot of friends, including other Chapters. Nobody has ever purged a Chapter with Inquisitorial Stormtroopers...

That said, could you please type out the word Inquisitor instead of I. I and Is causes me pain when reading it.