"Iaijutsu Duel (to the death): When fought to
the death, the duel objective is to kill the opponent
or inflict the Dying condition on them."

So, either counts - this is a mechanical thing. If you manage to land a 16+ crit, that character dies instantly, and never enters the dying condition, which would create a loophole. But that crit is also quite hard to land, so the Dying condition also counts - it's a mortal injury they would die from without assistance. You might run into a judge who would contest it, but technically per the rules you hit an objective and the duel is over. And since you've lost a duel to the death, if you don't die you'll be ordered to commit seppuku anyway, so the "normal" thought process is why would you stop yourself from dying. (Seriously, there's a common quote from the Hagakure about this)

If you want to throw honor to the wind and possibly screw over several people in your house/family/clan/party, you might try and stop yourself from dying or keep fighting to get revenge on your enemy, because that is also cool and on theme, but does not necessarily change the "outcome" of the duel, since the two dying condition crits are "Agonizing Death" and "Swift Death".

41 minutes ago, easl said:

So, there's your problem; you're considering two very different win conditions as the same. Is the win condition dead or is it dying (i.e. fatally wounded)? If "dying," then the first fatal blow would win, regardless of who actually expires first. But if the win condition is "dead," then IMO you can be lying on the ground bleeding out, and if your opponent is foolish enough to come close to you and you kill him dead (think Liam Neeson's final battle in Rob Roy or Oberyn vs. The Mountain in S4 of Game of Thrones), you win.

Given that neither in RL nor in a game like this do people have perfect information about what constitutes 'fatal blow that can't be recovered from,' I'd generally suggest that you stick with "dead" as a victory condition. It's a bit easier to determine. Also, going with "dead" as the victory condition allows for awesome final-effort comebacks to count.

agreed with your statement.

but remember, to inflict the dying condition.. unless you get a finishing blow, you probably cannot reach that amount of severity... kakita rank 5 maybe, but probably not even. everybody else cannot that easily achieve a crit 12+ after resist check without a finishing blow.

thing is, in duels as written... one opponent will probably be incapacitated before that happens (if both duellists know what they are doing).

so the best way to get that dying condition is to incapacitate the opponent, then put him unconscious, and then slash again to get a +10 crit.

at that point honestly... the guy is incapacitated, cannot "heal" himself (can't take actions that require a check)... so hes just gonna die.

its dirty, its ugly (basically you smash somebody on the ground until he explodes), but that is how it works for a duel to the death, that is how you inflict the "dying" condition.

So, its all about whos got enough composure to last and compromise his opponent (or simply destroy them with flurry of blows a la mirumoto).

its just a shame there are no ways to play the "strife" game with the current duel rules, making, yet again, the all out aggressive duellist who aims to incapacitate his opponent (good ini, good composure/endurance, ie: fire/earth rings...) the better option... bonus points if you have ways to increase dmg (two weapons with spinning blade or other things maybe).

15 hours ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Then they will be expected to commit sudoku after. They lost the duel to the death. Thus, they must die.

I believe you mean Seppuku, but the idea of forcing a samurai to do a math puzzle is a fun one.

43 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

I believe you mean Seppuku, but the idea of forcing a samurai to do a math puzzle is a fun one.

More than that ! Force them to keep doing sudoku until they die of boredom. Now THAT is cruelty!

9 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

So, either counts - this is a mechanical thing. If you manage to land a 16+ crit, that character dies instantly, and never enters the dying condition, which would create a loophole. But that crit is also quite hard to land, so the Dying condition also counts - it's a mortal injury they would die from without assistance. You might run into a judge who would contest it, but technically per the rules you hit an objective and the duel is over. And since you've lost a duel to the death, if you don't die you'll be ordered to commit seppuku anyway, so the "normal" thought process is why would you stop yourself from dying. (Seriously, there's a common quote from the Hagakure about this)

The problem with this is if you ignore your Dying condition and strike your opponent dead then you win the duel by the largest margin (8+) via scoring, despite your opponent achieving their objective. The Dying condition itself hinders you in no conceivable way, the only way the critical damage can hurt you is if you resisted it with your best Ring and you have no fallback Ring - then you are in trouble because of the Severely Wounded condition. Considering how relatively easy it is to remove Dying, the Severity 12-15 critical damage has roughly the same applicable consequences as a a severity 5-6(!) critical damage. In comparison, you can lose both your arms, both your legs, become deafened, blinded, and mute, and the duel is still on .

Just houserule that once you get the dying condition you automatically fill your endurance stat with fatigue if needed and then become incapacitated. if it really bugs you.

So the character would need to take calming breath before trying to heal himself.

This game is not beyond needing a few houserules you know

10 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

so the best way to get that dying condition is to incapacitate the opponent, then put him unconscious, and then slash again to get a +10 crit.

at that point honestly... the guy is incapacitated, cannot "heal" himself (can't take actions that require a check)... so hes just gonna die.

its dirty, its ugly (basically you smash somebody on the ground until he explodes), but that is how it works for a duel to the death, that is how you inflict the "dying" condition.

So, its all about whos got enough composure to last and compromise his opponent (or simply destroy them with flurry of blows a la mirumoto).

That's an element of 'terms of the duel', though.

Duels to First Strike are pretty much first-decent-attack-roll wins, so a hair-trigger drop on the staredown and a void point thrown in is usually more than enough (especially if you have a relevant advantage like Quick Reflexes )

Duels to First Blood are doable in a single blow If you're competent, but the lower down the pecking order you are, the more likely it is to need incapacitation first (I honestly never registered that it required a bleeding-inflicting critical rather than the bleeding condition; that's just odd given that there are other ways to inflict it). Duels to the Death even more so - whether going for a target's Composure (finishing blow) or Endurance (incapacitation) is easier is going to depend on your opponent, whether they're armoured and/or in earth stance and what techniques you have at your disposal.

Warriors Duels & Sparring Matches are to Incapacitation, so it's potato-sack-samurai and slash/slash/slash.

10 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That's an element of 'terms of the duel', though.

Duels to First Strike are pretty much first-decent-attack-roll wins, so a hair-trigger drop on the staredown and a void point thrown in is usually more than enough (especially if you have a relevant advantage like Quick Reflexes )

Duels to First Blood are doable in a single blow If you're competent, but the lower down the pecking order you are, the more likely it is to need incapacitation first (I honestly never registered that it required a bleeding-inflicting critical rather than the bleeding condition; that's just odd given that there are other ways to inflict it). Duels to the Death even more so - whether going for a target's Composure (finishing blow) or Endurance (incapacitation) is easier is going to depend on your opponent, whether they're armoured and/or in earth stance and what techniques you have at your disposal.

Warriors Duels & Sparring Matches are to Incapacitation, so it's potato-sack-samurai and slash/slash/slash.

To first blood, it needs a crit 5+ severity as per the rules.

Nothing to do with bleeding (which is weird but acceptable i guess)

So even if a crit 3+ with a razor-edged weapon would put bleeding on the opponent, as RAW it still doesnt win you the duel to first blood.

Otherwise, all your other observations are on point i think. Obviously, for first strike duels (and first blood also) earth ring screw that up a bit, so does the fact that iai tech cant crit, and fire ring crit resist to a lesser extent)

6 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Obviously, for first strike duels (and first blood also) earth ring screw that up a bit, so does the fact that iai tech cant crit, and fire ring crit resist to a lesser extent)

Fire is an issue for first blood - because it's good at reducing criticals to zero severity - but then that does involve eating strife at above your recommended daily allowance, so that more-or-less equals out in a duel; going " haha! I do not bleed! I have reduced the critical from your Strike action to a harmless severity zer.... WHAM " and getting hit with a finishing blow on the backswing shortly after.

It's not really important for first strike at all - it only offers bonus successes, which translate to fatigue which doesn't really matter (or at least, no more than taking an equivalent amount of strife yourself), and doesn't help you get the success/success/opportunity/opportunity which you need to win. A shed-tonne of bonus successes does help on the assessment check, but since you're trading a strife result for a bonus success, it's not actually doing you any more good than taking an equivalent amount of strife in the staredown unless you expect the duel to go on for several rounds.

Earth is a good tactic for 'to first strike' because it does mandate (barring Heartpiercing Strike and any equivalent techniques I may have forgotten) that you either be compromised or incapacitated before you can lose. Since Earth boosts both composure and resilience, that's not easy if a character is using earth stance because it's their best ring. The only real answer here is predict or battle in the mind to force them into a different stance.

16 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

To first blood, it needs a crit 5+ severity as per the rules.

Nothing to do with bleeding (which is weird but acceptable i guess)

So even if a crit 3+ with a razor-edged weapon would put bleeding on the opponent, as RAW it still doesnt win you the duel to first blood.

Agreed. The rules aren't ambiguous; they just don't make sense. You are bleeding. Hence, surely, that is 'first blood'. It should work, but as of the current FAQ/Errata, doesn't.

9 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

I believe you mean Seppuku, but the idea of forcing a samurai to do a math puzzle is a fun one.

Yes, I was in an online game, and they used a sudoku image each time they referred to seppuku, and it stuck in my head.

A good rule of thumb is:

• If there are 2 combatants it is a duel (or a clash in the middle of a skirmish or mass battle)).

• If there are more than 2 but less than 20 combatants it is a skirmish.

• If there are more than 20 combatants it is a mass battle.

Even after both Finishing Blows have triggered, duels and clashes can continue beyond without needing to switch to a skirmish. The accruing strife represents the mental strain of solely focusing on a single opponent to the extreme. A duel that lasts long enough will reach a point where both characters constantly compromised and therefore will start making mistakes as they can not keep an dice with strife on them meaning that some attacks that could have hit/crit while the character was not compromised will not as sides with strife are in effect blank while compromised.

5 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

The problem with this is if you ignore your Dying condition and strike your opponent dead then you win the duel by the largest margin (8+) via scoring, despite your opponent achieving their objective. The Dying condition itself hinders you in no conceivable way, the only way the critical damage can hurt you is if you resisted it with your best Ring and you have no fallback Ring - then you are in trouble because of the Severely Wounded condition. Considering how relatively easy it is to remove Dying, the Severity 12-15 critical damage has roughly the same applicable consequences as a a severity 5-6(!) critical damage. In comparison, you can lose both your arms, both your legs, become deafened, blinded, and mute, and the duel is still on .

You spend your turn making a medicine check, and the duel ends the round the Dying condition was inflicted. IOW you can't strike your opponent dead before the duel ends.

47 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

You spend your turn making a medicine check, and the duel ends the round the Dying condition was inflicted. IOW you can't strike your opponent dead before the duel ends.

I was referring to the scenario when no Medicine Check takes place but the Dying character attacks. This can be a big thing if you are coming out of Center, take the crit with your not-so-good Void, then nuke your opponent with a Center Fire setup strike.

Another interesting scenario is when your opponent's attack triggers Finishing Blow, you can only crit them to Dying, so their attack goes through and crit you into Dying too. On your turn you Medicine yourself back to health with your very angry opponent watching helplessly. What a way to end a duel !

6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

The problem with this is if you ignore your Dying condition and strike your opponent dead then you win the duel by the largest margin (8+) via scoring, despite your opponent achieving their objective. The Dying condition itself hinders you in no conceivable way, the only way the critical damage can hurt you is if you resisted it with your best Ring and you have no fallback Ring - then you are in trouble because of the Severely Wounded condition. Considering how relatively easy it is to remove Dying, the Severity 12-15 critical damage has roughly the same applicable consequences as a a severity 5-6(!) critical damage. In comparison, you can lose both your arms, both your legs, become deafened, blinded, and mute, and the duel is still on .

No, you cannot. See the sidebar next to the table. A second scar disad is grounds for the GM to say "dying 5."

Also, if incapacitated and criticaled, also renders you unconscious. Getting severities of 12+ isn't easy, even with finishing blow.

2 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

No, you cannot. See the sidebar next to the table. A second scar disad is grounds for the GM to say "dying 5.

Huh. That's actually a damage downgrade .

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

Huh. That's actually a damage downgrade .

No, it doesn't pull the scar off. And, unless you're not incapacitated, you're dying 5 AND unconscious.

its time for an houserule guys, this debate is going on for too long, so there you go:

dying condition also includes "when you have the dying condition you are also considered to have the incapacitated condition"

can't save yourself. gg, you are dying.

edit; improved wording

That's a bad rule because it hurts the theme. You should totally be able to do something cool while dying. This issue is more "when does the duel end and is scored".

If you are mortally wounded but manage to retaliate and kill your opponent outright, you technically score higher and win, and this can actually make sense, but then you have to hit like the 16+ crit which is rough. Otherwise, you basically total up the objectives and various crit severities (and if you whittled any fatigue), and the guy who hit first should win by a slight margin, depending on how much the crits are soaked, etc.

Posting the chart for reference. If objective is "Make opponent dead or dying" you get 6 points when either happens, and 14 points if you kill them outright. The person who hits first gets +3, and every fatigue you inflict and every point of Severity (post soak roll) counts. So if you drop a 12 on like a Finishing Blow and it's your literal first strike, you should get 21 points, if the opponent turns around and does the same, he only gets like 18 points and is the clear looser. But, if he manages to land a bigger hit, he can close that gap with skill. Actually OHK somebody is worth like ~40 points.

9 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

That's a bad rule because it hurts the theme. You should totally be able to do something cool while dying. This issue is more "when does the duel end and is scored".

If you are mortally wounded but manage to retaliate and kill your opponent outright, you technically score higher and win, and this can actually make sense, but then you have to hit like the 16+ crit which is rough. Otherwise, you basically total up the objectives and various crit severities (and if you whittled any fatigue), and the guy who hit first should win by a slight margin, depending on how much the crits are soaked, etc.

Posting the chart for reference. If objective is "Make opponent dead or dying" you get 6 points when either happens, and 14 points if you kill them outright. The person who hits first gets +3, and every fatigue you inflict and every point of Severity (post soak roll) counts. So if you drop a 12 on like a Finishing Blow and it's your literal first strike, you should get 21 points, if the opponent turns around and does the same, he only gets like 18 points and is the clear looser. But, if he manages to land a bigger hit, he can close that gap with skill. Actually OHK somebody is worth like ~40 points.

so dying is less hindering than being incapacitated ?

i can agree with that. weird, but agreeable.

was just trying to help you guys stop the debate. maybe the issue is more about the fact that someone can heal himself out of the dying condition if hes not incapacitated. but then again, maybe it is legit.

i have no real opinion on that. never been an issue in my game. every dying person was also incapacitated because of fatigue (nobody scored a 12+ crit after resist).

57 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

No, it doesn't pull the scar off. And, unless you're not incapacitated, you're dying 5 AND unconscious.

It does:

Quote

At the GM's discretion, if a character would otherwise be assigned a second instance of a disadvantage with the scar type due to recurring harm. the
character is struck with a mortal blow. Instead of being assigned a new scar disadvantage , the character suffers the Dying (5 rounds) condition.

So instead of getting the Scar Disadvantage that is impossible to remove as far as I'm aware, you get the Dying condition you can remove yourself with a single action and a somewhat tough Skill Check.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

It does:

So instead of getting the Scar Disadvantage that is impossible to remove as far as I'm aware, you get the Dying condition you can remove yourself with a single action and a somewhat tough Skill Check.

But after which you're almost assuredly unconscious, and so cannot make the treatment check yourself.

And, since it's may, the GM can give you the additional scar if you wouldn't be. Well, at least if you don't already have all four scars in that ring.

5 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

But after which you're almost assuredly unconscious, and so cannot make the treatment check yourself.

Almost assuredly? How so? You can lose all your limbs from critical damage without ever suffering a single point of Fatigue. In fact, you can lose your limbs easier if you decide to never suffer Fatigue.

I mean, there is the very specific case of someone putting a 11+ critical on an already Incapacitated opponent, but if your GM is doing this then you have problems quite different than the Not-So-Dying-Duelist anomaly. In my opinion .

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

Almost assuredly? How so? You can lose all your limbs from critical damage without ever suffering a single point of Fatigue. In fact, you can lose your limbs easier if you decide to never suffer Fatigue.

I mean, there is the very specific case of someone putting a 11+ critical on an already Incapacitated opponent, but if your GM is doing this then you have problems quite different than the Not-So-Dying-Duelist anomaly. In my opinion .

as a GM, with monsters or villains/bandits etc I would totally attack incapacitated players and crit them into oblivion. so they better have friends to help/defend them.

that is how we play our games. being incapacitated is nothing, it is the critical strikes that matters in the long run. if a monster see someone down on one knee and trying to catch his breath (incapacitated) he will assuredly swing his weapon to go for the kill, most of the time.

to come back on the other subject, it can be a bit weird that you can "self heal your own dying condition"

we're not taking bleeding here, we are talking you are "dying".

but that is up to the players/gm to decide if it is ok to heal your dying conditions by yourself.

i might consider making it impossible to self heal the dying condition (same as in D&D, you take those death saving throws and there is nothing you can do about it unless a buddy heals you OR you roll a 20 on the death saving throw).

that is up for debate.

i liked @UnitOmega idea that you can still "act" if you are dying but not incapacitated. makes cool narrative moments. but, i'm not sure I like the idea of self healing death conditions. maybe making it super hard like TN6 or 8 so you would need a miracle almost.

Just now, AtoMaki said:

Almost assuredly? How so? You can lose all your limbs from critical damage without ever suffering a single point of Fatigue. In fact, you can lose your limbs easier if you decide to never suffer Fatigue.

Severity doesn't get increased by successes except in special cases. Scars need 7-11

For +BS: Finishing blows, Heartpiercing strike, Iaijutsu Rising, Jade Strike, Fury of Osano Wo (8+2×BS if hit triggers a crit by non-defense)

for +✻: Striking as Fire, Veiled Menace Style, Pin the Fan

Ring + Skill: Freezing the Lifeblood (kiho-burst)

Fixed Severity in scar range: Earthquke.

Maho backlash.