They are different Intrigue goals. Appeal to a person/group is particularly dangerous, because it can be used to make someone start supporting an idea, or at the very worst make them stop arguing against it for the rest of the Intrigue. Low Focus characters can be easily shouted down and stopped from pursuing goals, making them easy targets to shut down.
You
Potential Advancement Oversight
2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:We found Air/Trick very situational and Fire/Incite too hit-or-miss. The Shuji are cool but you might not want to use deception on the daimyo just to spread some rumors, so to speak.
Regardless of actual mechanics, if you want to deceive the daimyo and/or spread rumors, you go through his underlings. At the very least you set up the situation so the big kahuna is somewhat receptive to your hot air (pun somewhat intended) before you blow it in his ear.
d/p
Edited by nameless ronint/p
Edited by nameless ronin8 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:Regardless of actual mechanics, if you want to deceive the daimyo and/or spread rumors, you go through his underlings. At the very least you set up the situation so the big kahuna is somewhat receptive to your hot air (pun somewhat intended) before you blow it in his ear.
you probably don't have enough composure and water/earth opp and techniques to be able to sustain the long run. you need to strike when it matters and stay a bit on the sideshow before that moment. like a ninja.
a. NINJA.
thats what fire/air is
2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:you probably don't have enough composure and water/earth opp and techniques to be able to sustain the long run. you need to strike when it matters and stay a bit on the sideshow before that moment. like a ninja.
a. NINJA.
thats what fire/air is
You have plenty of opportunities between scenes to drop strife, on top of what you might already get rid of at the end of a scene. And there's always the possibility of Unmasking. Pulling the wool over a daimyo's eyes probably shouldn't be easy peasy lemon squeezy.
2 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:You have plenty of opportunities between scenes to drop strife, on top of what you might already get rid of at the end of a scene. And there's always the possibility of Unmasking. Pulling the wool over a daimyo's eyes probably shouldn't be easy peasy lemon squeezy.
oh yeah between scenes sure. but in an intrigue conflict scene,
the guy with 16 composure, earth shuji to restore strife and a good water ring to do his checks and use 1opp to remove 2 strife...
compared to the fire/air (NINJA) with his 8 composure and no way to cool down aside unmasking...
if the Intrigue last 5-6 rounds... the ninja won't be able to go all out every turn.
1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:oh yeah between scenes sure. but in an intrigue conflict scene,
the guy with 16 composure, earth shuji to restore strife and a good water ring to do his checks and use 1opp to remove 2 strife...
compared to the fire/air (NINJA) with his 8 composure and no way to cool down aside unmasking...
if the Intrigue last 5-6 rounds... the ninja won't be able to go all out every turn.
Another excellent reason not to go at the daimyo directly. If your shenanigans come to light while you're bamboozling a minor functionary, that's a problem - but one you can probably fix. If the daimyo notices you are trying to pull a fast one on him, it's probably game over. Like, over over. Work in small steps. Don't bet the farm on a single gamble.
3 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:Another excellent reason not to go at the daimyo directly. If your shenanigans come to light while you're bamboozling a minor functionary, that's a problem - but one you can probably fix. If the daimyo notices you are trying to pull a fast one on him, it's probably game over. Like, over over. Work in small steps. Don't bet the farm on a single gamble.
going by the intrigue rules, you'll still need a few rounds of "convincing" to do. you'd rather leave your buddies to do it not to overstrife yourself and then do a finishing blow to end it before they can retaliate when you think you can get enough momentum point in one action.
On 11/13/2018 at 3:07 PM, Avatar111 said:How do you differentiate between discrediting and losing an argument?
Basically, you can be dicredited, lose honor/glory but win the argument?
Hmm.. yeah. Wont live long in court but that can make sacrifice for victory something they can do. Not sure it is a good long term option for PCs though. Maybe.
Differentiation by mechanical proceeffect:
Discrediting someone: essentially creating a social disadvantage that goes upon their character sheet.
Forcing them to loose an argument: depends upon the scope.
- might impose a temporary advantage or disadvantage
- might force an honor or glory stake, to be lost if reneged upon.
-
for NPC's, might actually change the NPC's view, or even demeanor
- for PC's, that's up to the player
-
might do any of the above to a 3rd party, instead of the opponent debated with
- for the right pile of momentum, do it to a group of 3rd parties
On 11/13/2018 at 11:07 PM, Avatar111 said:How do you differentiate between discrediting and losing an argument?
Basically, you can be dicredited, lose honor/glory but win the argument?
Hmm.. yeah. Wont live long in court but that can make sacrifice for victory something they can do. Not sure it is a good long term option for PCs though. Maybe.
On 11/16/2018 at 12:46 AM, AK_Aramis said:Differentiation by mechanical proceeffect:
Discrediting someone: essentially creating a social disadvantage that goes upon their character sheet.
Forcing them to loose an argument: depends upon the scope.
- might impose a temporary advantage or disadvantage
- might force an honor or glory stake, to be lost if reneged upon.
- for NPC's, might actually change the NPC's view, or even demeanor
- for PC's, that's up to the player
- might do any of the above to a 3rd party, instead of the opponent debated with
- for the right pile of momentum, do it to a group of 3rd parties
This.
And narratively, discredited means the court or at least key people in it are turned against you or you embarrassed yourself and your faction; expect to be socially shunned, not welcome back and any proposal you make in future to be ill-received. You may have insulted someone, meekly swallowed an insult, or been led into showing yourself up in some way.
Despite this, you can still 'win the argument'; which usually means some variation on " persuade the presiding lord to rule in your favour ". Just because your argument offended someone doesn't automatically the key point you were trying to make wrong.
Basically, think of any example of courtroom drama where a really nasty lawyer gets a piece of slime off on a technicality, but the judge and the media get to see what an unpleasant piece of work they are in the process. They won the argument - Not Guilty, Your Honour - but will have to deal with the consequences of the way they won.