Clarification on crit hits needed

By Skie, in Rules Questions

41 minutes ago, JBento said:

At which point you take out boars and put in bears. If your argument is "PCs get better once they rank up, and the enemies that challenged them don't challenge them anymore", then yeah, I agree. I'm not throwing run-of-the-mill kobolds at 10th level PCs in D&D, either.

Try putting in sharks. I was reading the mantis DLC sourcebook and dear holy kami those things are terrifying.

I mean, not exactly common*, but terrifying. An attacker with a ring rank of 4, martial skills of 3, and a Damage 6, Deadliness 10 attack against any bleeding target would be scary even if facing one didn't almost by definition mean you were unarmoured and fighting in entangling terrain....

* A friend of mine who served in the merchant navy says: "I don't have a phobia of sharks, because that means an irrational fear. I'm not scared of sharks attacking me in the alley behind the bar, for example. When in the water off the west coast of Africa with a cut on my ankle, I have a bone-deep, entirely rational, bloody terror of sharks ."

In most campaigns, sharks won't be making an appearance except as a conversation piece hanging over the fireplace, though.

Sharks get an undeserved bad rep, too - most sharks are just curious about this weird thing in the water and take exploratory bites because they don't have hands. Tap them forcefully on the nose and you're immediately marked as "too much trouble to be worth it, WHATEVER it is." Just endeavor to not look like a seal or sea lion.*

* blues will munch on anything just in case it's edible and bulls are ornery bastards in the best of situations, though

On 11/4/2018 at 5:20 AM, Avatar111 said:

Just remove all strife/opportunities from resist (and crit mitigate) checks.

Gonna save a few hours and a few headaches.

Edit; at least make opportunities unusable on resist checks. Strife could stay, to make resist checks "harder". Ill think about it, but opportunities is a big no!

That's the most intellectually lazy approach to it I've seen yet, and also counter to the rules, and so it belongs in house rules, not Rules Questions...

And here's why it's also a bad idea : Opp spends in resists have great story value

  • the strife of being covered in blood (from a resist in fire)
  • being snapped back to functionality by a burst of Adrenaline (Water, recover 2strife or 1 fatigue)
  • Ignore a prior wound condition (thus possibly avoiding a scar disadvantage)(Void)
  • setting grim determination to an ally (in earth), via reducing their strife
  • Noticing something important about an NPC (Air)
  • Be deceptive the level of damage from the foe (exaggerate or hide) (Air
  • Recall something important (in Earth)
  • Ignore a disad this turn (earth) which can result in not stepping up a scar to dead. (Earth)
  • Open the target up to another's crit because they had to reach a little further. (Fire)
  • Make them pause due to the spurting blood from the wound (Fire - they take strife to attack you)
  • They realize you're not down yet and are distracted by the risk you pose (Fire, +1 TN to strike anyone but you)
  • Wet yourself badly, leaving the floor near you wet and slick (water)
  • Bleed on the floor, making it slick (water)
  • scrabble backwards during the crit (Water) - move a range band back
  • Sense an opening due to your sacrifice (void)(-1 TN on your intended stance next round).

4 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

yup, maybe resist critical is the only exception. minor detail then to make it work or not with all resist checks. as long as it doesn't work with criticals.

Resist critical is TN1. Relevant wounds and scars may shove that up, as might other check TN modifiers, but failing that, fire stance tends to be the easiest stance to reduce the effects of a crit.

Which makes it interesting in duels to first blood, as well; getting the level 5 needed is much harder if the target's in fire.

1 minute ago, AK_Aramis said:

That's the most intellectually lazy approach to it I've seen yet, and also counter to the rules, and so it belongs in house rules, not Rules Questions...

And here's why it's also a bad idea : Opp spends in resists have great story value

  • the strife of being covered in blood (from a resist in fire)
  • being snapped back to functionality by a burst of Adrenaline (Water, recover 2strife or 1 fatigue)
  • Ignore a prior wound condition (thus possibly avoiding a scar disadvantage)(Void)
  • setting grim determination to an ally (in earth), via reducing their strife
  • Noticing something important about an NPC (Air)
  • Be deceptive the level of damage from the foe (exaggerate or hide) (Air
  • Recall something important (in Earth)
  • Ignore a disad this turn (earth) which can result in not stepping up a scar to dead. (Earth)
  • Open the target up to another's crit because they had to reach a little further. (Fire)
  • Make them pause due to the spurting blood from the wound (Fire - they take strife to attack you)
  • They realize you're not down yet and are distracted by the risk you pose (Fire, +1 TN to strike anyone but you)
  • Wet yourself badly, leaving the floor near you wet and slick (water)
  • Bleed on the floor, making it slick (water)
  • scrabble backwards during the crit (Water) - move a range band back
  • Sense an opening due to your sacrifice (void)(-1 TN on your intended stance next round).

sure thing.

the day you make 2 or 3 resist roll in the same turn, tell me it aint bloated. and one resist start to affect the other (because all the resist checks happen sequentially) potentially changing the whole thing and giving a headache to everybody:

we just don't want to play the same game. and that is fine. i don't want one turn to last 30 minutes.

and thats fine.

rule as written, resist checks you can use opportunities. nobody argued that.

1 minute ago, AK_Aramis said:

Resist critical is TN1. Relevant wounds and scars may shove that up, as might other check TN modifiers, but failing that, fire stance tends to be the easiest stance to reduce the effects of a crit.

Which makes it interesting in duels to first blood, as well; getting the level 5 needed is much harder if the target's in fire.

why interesting ?

duels to first blood are basically duel to incapacitated. we all knew that.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

why interesting ?

duels to first blood are basically duel to incapacitated. we all knew that.

Then you're deluded. First by using "All" and second by believing first blood = incapacitated. Several of us have noticed your delusions about dueling, and your pernicious willful ignorance on the matter.

3 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Then you're deluded. First by using "All" and second by believing first blood = incapacitated. Several of us have noticed your delusions about dueling, and your pernicious willful ignorance on the matter.

sure. ill just earth stance... see what you can do.

oh, you predict me earth ? i'll just fire that round. predict again next round while i hit you again.

get out.

18 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

sure. ill just earth stance... see what you can do.

oh, you predict me earth ? i'll just fire that round. predict again next round while i hit you again.

get out.

If you rolled Initiative of a duel on Earth you are already losing. Yeah, you'll lose by incapacitation, but that's what you get for turtling.

If you want to win, you'll roll initiative on another stance that actually have useful things to do if you strike first and then the mind games begin and the die is cast.

All Earth Stance turtles lost their duels in my games, including PvP . Because of that I stopped worrying about changing Earth Stance, it is a non-issue.

Edited by omnicrone

Earth stancers only won duels during skirmishes, while fully armored and such. But that's another beast entirely. In Iaijutsu duels, Earth Stance loses , in an annoying way at that.

if you didn't take earth first round, whenever its the turn of the other player he will water draw and most probably crit you. then you lost.

unless you were in earth stance (or fire as we realized).

but if you were in air/void/water ? you're GG.

39 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

he will water draw and most probably crit you. then you lost.

Not likely unless Water is their main ring and even then.. if it is, you Earth Iai to gain the upper hand or Fire Iai them and go for a KO. Or Earth draw if have no Iai, you still have the upper hand because you still have something nasty stocked from the initiative roll while the opponent doesn't

If you open with Earth (or Water) you just lost the best opportunity to actually have good effects on your first strike, effects that will decide the duel (I'm talking about the kept opp from Air, -1TN from Void or strife shenanigans from Fire). You begin the duel just with the I hope my roll is good and, no, the protection from critical will not save you. It is like going limp on the preflop with pocket tens thinking that is a sound strategy. You are underestimating how hard is to get a success with 2 opp at the earlier ranks without shenanigans from earlier opps

Winning Iai duels by opening with Earth is pure gambling and one that I still have to see someone succeed.

This, of course, is for starting characters (Rank 1-2), because for advanced characters things seems to get worse for Earth as things like Heartpiercing Strike, Battle in the Mind (shut down Earth or Water and go from there), start to rear their heads (though this about high ranks is just theorycraft).

Edited by omnicrone
15 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Not likely unless Water is their main ring and even then.. if it is, you Earth Iai to gain the upper hand or Fire Iai them and go for a KO. Or Earth draw if have no Iai, you still have the upper hand because you still have something nasty stocked from the initiative roll while the opponent doesn't

If you open with Earth (or Water) you just lost the best opportunity to actually have good effects on your first strike, effects that will decide the duel (I'm talking about the kept opp from Air, -1TN from Void or strife shenanigans from Fire). You begin the duel just with the I hope my roll is good and, no, the protection from critical will not save you. It is like going limp on the preflop with pocket tens thinking that is a sound strategy. You are underestimating how hard is to get a success with 2 opp at the earlier ranks without shenanigans from earlier opps

Winning Iai duels on Earth is pure gambling and one that I still have to see someone succeed.

This, of course, is for starting characters (Rank 1-2), because for advanced characters things seems to get worse for Earth as things like Heartpiercing Strike, Battle in the Mind (shut down Earth or Water and go from there), start to rear their heads (though this about high ranks is just theorycraft).

Also, this is all about duelists with similar levels of ability. A duelist with significantly more ranks (2-3 added up) in Meditation and/or Martial Arts [melee] will probably win even with a bad dueling strategy with the dice advantage alone.

Edited by omnicrone

earth and water are definitely the worst initiative rings, as they should be.

the person winning the initiative is at huge advantage. that is also for sure.

but, if you win the initiative and the opponent is not in earth stance, you will most probably go for a water draw/strike and win (since you obviously did initiative in air or void).

doesn't change that the gamble to strike is always the best gamble, worst comes to worst, you will inflict fatigue.

and if you are the guy with bad Focus stat. you'd rather go earth during ini because IF you lose ini and are not in earth stance... oof, you just lost.

so you go earth.

the opponent first turn, since he can't win with a crit, he needs to go for full dmg, and hopefully he gets a one turn KO.

now, if he went full on dmg on you (thats all he can do unless he predict/center) he probably be better served in doing it with earth or fire. because he doesn't want to get crit by you during your turn. if you went water, air or void... you are gambling that you won't get crit. which is not that hard to do on TN2 2OPP when you have like ring3 skill3.

now, knowing that, fire seems better but more strife costly than earth who simply makes you immune to crit but doesn't provide offense.

all in all, it will be a duel to incapacitated. you won't let yourself open with air or water or void when the opponent with ring 3 skill 3 and the possibility to add a void point on the roll is threatening to crit you. the gamble is not in your favor.

which was my main issue with duels to first strike / first blood in the first place. they don't happen any other way than a skirmish to incapacitated in which the high composure and endurance of earth/fire is more serviceable that your first strike in air (which he could also quite possible win in the staredown if he had a bit more lucky roll than you in the ini check, since he got more composure).

39 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

earth and water are definitely the worst initiative rings, as they should be.

the person winning the initiative is at huge advantage. that is also for sure.

but, if you win the initiative and the opponent is not in earth stance, you will most probably go for a water draw/strike and win (since you obviously did initiative in air or void).

doesn't change that the gamble to strike is always the best gamble, worst comes to worst, you will inflict fatigue. 

and if you are the guy with bad Focus stat. you'd rather go earth during ini because IF you lose ini and are not in earth stance... oof, you just lost.

so you go earth.

the opponent first turn, since he can't win with a crit, he needs to go for full dmg, and hopefully he gets a one turn KO.

now, if he went full on dmg on you (thats all he can do unless he predict/center) he probably be better served in doing it with earth or fire. because he doesn't want to get crit by you during your turn. if you went water, air or void... you are gambling that you won't get crit. which is not that hard to do on TN2 2OPP when you have like ring3 skill3.

now, knowing that, fire seems better but more strife costly than earth who simply makes you immune to crit but doesn't provide offense.

all in all, it will be a duel to incapacitated. you won't let yourself open with air or water or void when the opponent with ring 3 skill 3 and the possibility to add a void point on the roll is threatening to crit you. the gamble is not in your favor.

which was my main issue with duels to first strike / first blood in the first place. they don't happen any other way than a skirmish to incapacitated in which the high composure and endurance of earth/fire is more serviceable that your first strike in air (which he could also quite possible win in the staredown if he had a bit more lucky roll than you in the ini check, since he got more composure).

Characters with good Focus will tend to keep few successes in the Initiative roll because they want to have a smallish difference in the initiative track to be able to mind game the other guy during the staredown. No mindgames on the staredown is a missed opportunity for the higher focus character.

Strike-2opp critical is only good on first strike duels, but risky to get it if you went Earth in initiative because you have no tricks to get there and you probably only have one shot (or not even that if the opponent Earthed up as well).

Strike-2opp critical is terrible on first blood because people will likely resist a 5-7 severity crit into not bleeding and will use opp on the resist roll to regain the upper hand (it is a double gamble in this case you are gambling a good roll for you and a bad one for the opponent). First blood duels seems to be to incapacitation or strife-out (at lower ranks) and Earth stance is not the best against both strategies. Air/Fire stance are best against the first (one is safer, the other riskier), but only barely as Earth is not bad with that physical def opp, while Water/Fire/Void stances are good against the second (depending on circumstances/build/approaches).

Things that are good at duels in order of importance from my brief experience: having Void Points available, using a good ring for Initiative, using a good Downtime activity to prepare for the duel (Void!), having an Iai Cut Kata, having high Focus, having good/decent Air/Fire/Void. Earth does not help much, the guy who goes first dictates the outcome of combat because he can always respond to the passivity of Earth turtlers with many other options of his own.

Edited by omnicrone

And this all for a high stakes PvP duel with two players with the same power level.

Against NPCs they can be a completely beast. You can as a DM make them very challenging by giving the NPC a good opportunity set/techniques or somewhat easy by making them against a stock NPC, which PCs have a huge advantage against.

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

Characters with good Focus will tend to keep few successes in the Initiative roll because they want to have a smallish difference in the initiative track to be able to mind game the other guy during the staredown. No mindgames on the staredown is a missed opportunity for the higher focus character.

Strike-2opp critical is only good on first strike duels, but risky to get it if you went Earth in initiative because you have no tricks to get there(and you only have one shot (or not even that if the opponent Earthed up as well).

Strike-2opp critical is terrible on first blood because people will likely resist a 5-7 severity crit into not bleeding and will use opp on the resist roll to regain the upper hand (it is a double gamble in this case you are gambling a good roll for you and a bad one for the opponent). First blood duels seems to be to incapacitation or strife-out (at lower ranks) and Earth stance is bad against both strategies. Air stance is best against the first, but only barely as Earth is not bad with that physical def opp, while Water/Fire/Void stances are good against the second (depending on circumstances/build/approaches).

Things that are good at duels in order of importance from my brief experience: having Void Points available, using a good ring for Initiative, using a good Downtime activity to prepare for the duel (Void!), having an Iai Cut Kata, having high Focus, having good/decent Air/Fire/Void. Earth does not help much, the guy who goes first dictates the outcome of combat because he can always respond to the passivity of Earth turtlers with many other options of his own.

you are missing composure with your Air/Fire/Void. you won't last the "duel to incapacitated".

and no, it doesn't fix the issue that duels are "to incapacitated" until people get much better techniques etc.

originally, our first debate on duels was just that "they are very similar to mini-skirmishes". sure we went left right and center trying to understand them and learned a lot in the process (at least I did).

and yes, earth stance is no problem if you totally understand and accept that the idea is to incapacitate the opponent. which honestly at some point i might just accept... especially now that the fire stance crit resist saw the light of the day. there are 2 stances that basically make it almost impossible (to downright impossible) to get that sev 5 crit before one of the duelists becomes incapacitated.

if we accept that duels to first blood are not "one strike" at lower ranks, the discussion can change.

and probably it is something we need to accept, it is basically won by incapacitating the opponent. and they play out as strike first, strike hard (crossing cut) and keep going next round. and have enough composure to last more than 1 round (1strife first ini, 2strife 2nd ini, strife during your turn and potentially strife durign opponent turn if hes in fire)

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

you are missing composure with your Air/Fire/Void. you won't last the "duel to incapacitated".

and no, it doesn't fix the issue that duels are "to incapacitated" until people get much better techniques etc.

originally, our first debate on duels was just that "they are very similar to mini-skirmishes". sure we went left right and center trying to understand them and learned a lot in the process (at least I did).

and yes, earth stance is no problem if you totally understand and accept that the idea is to incapacitate the opponent. which honestly at some point i might just accept... especially now that the fire stance crit resist saw the light of the day. there are 2 stances that basically make it almost impossible (to downright impossible) to get that sev 5 crit before one of the duelists becomes incapacitated.

if we accept that duels to first blood are not "one strike" at lower ranks, the discussion can change.

and probably it is something we need to accept, it is basically won by incapacitating the opponent. and they play out as strike first, strike hard (crossing cut) and keep going next round. and have enough composure to last more than 1 round (1strife first ini, 2strife 2nd ini, strife during your turn and potentially strife durign opponent turn if hes in fire)

Having decent Air/Fire/Void (the / means either, not all) with 8 composure is more than enough to win duels, both to strife-out or incapacitation, but more likely the second, as the first one needs some staredown bait or some Fire pressure all in strategy. It is really easy to incapacitate an unarmored opponent, which is how Iaijutsu duels are fought. Most starting bushi can do it in 2 strikes. Fire seems really strong for dueling at the earlier ranks (and possibly at later ranks as well), as it is probably the most flexible ring to pursue different victory conditions in duels, as long as you aren't very lopsided and end up with 4 composure or something. And I don't mind Fire being strong in the act of dueling while Void/Air are the best openers, I think it is very fitting.

And the duels not being that clean (as in, being one to three whacks instead of one perfect stroke) at earlier ranks, which means inexperienced samurai, actually is kind of good fluffwise. You now have to work a lot into perfecting that one stroke technique instead of having Iaijutsu 5 before Rank 2 (like in 4E). Now, not even a young Kakita can do it right away, they have to perfect their craft as they go along (though they start better than most, their free/early access Iai kata is a better perk than I initially thought).

Edited by omnicrone

Also, duels to first strike are really tense when both duelists open with the good rings (Air/Void or with the pocket Fire strife pressure) because the staredown becomes really important since both duelists will probably go to their limit trying to go first. These ended up being the most fun duels and the most "I don't know who's going to win".

13 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Also, duels to first strike are really tense when both duelists open with the good rings (Air/Void or with the pocket Fire strife pressure) because the staredown becomes really important since both duelists will probably go to their limit trying to go first. These ended up being the most fun duels and the most "I don't know who's going to win".

duel to first strike is the same... if you don't win initiative you earth it up at first otherwise you might lose 1st round.

and they will go up to incapacitated also because both opponent will earth it up (the first one not using earth probably lost if both contestant have decent (2?) water + a void point (not guaranteed but best strat)

i don't see a difference except fire stance won't help you here.

anyway, i am OK that duels in lower ranks are all about "incapacitating" the opponent. Though it goes back to our original thread about dueling... We come to the same conclusion, we just learned to accept it.

but try explaining that to @Tonbo Karasu @AK_Aramis and @Hida Jitenno the trio of haha who don't understand anything and rather insult me than having a logical point of discussion.

Edited by Avatar111

You can (no guarantees) win with the Fire pocket strat if the opponent opened with anything other than Water since you can strifebomb an opponent with 4-6 strife (depending if you have wargear on you) in the first round. This is enough to strife out mostly anyone that fell on a staredown bait, though if the opponent opens with Fire and strifebombs you, you probably should not bet in the staredown, but then the Fire stancer knows it and can also not bet anything or bet just enough to beat you, go first and now he has the initiative to pursue a nuke to incapacitation, a 2suc-2opp with some dirty trick (like Void downtime + void point shenanigan) in water or he keeps bullying you and Fans the Flames also giving you Dazed (if you aren't in Earth, but if you rolled intitative on Earth the Fire stancer can nuke you to incap or close, or just Earth back and keep you in the back foot).

You can't Earth up if you want to open "for the win" with the good rings on Initiative. You either gamble your duel by going Earth on initiative and giving the opponent the upper hand from the get go or you don't. Earthing up after going first (after opening with an offensive ring) is very risky, since the opponent can stalemate you (Earthing back or nuking you) and you can end up being out of strife to bet next round and get Incapacitaed/Fire pressured into a finishing blow next turn. Either way, first one who Earths is just ceding ground .

Duels are full of mind games, Earthing up is not even close to an unbeatable strategy like it first seemed. It is actually rather weak and a gamble for the most part.

Edited by omnicrone

Something to think about Air Stance:
Each time you forced an opponent to keep an extra Success to just hit you, you effectively gained virtual 1 Endurance.
Each time you made an opponent miss entirely with the Air Stance, you effectively gained virtual X Endurance where X is the damage that would be flung into your face.
Each time you forced an opponent to keep an extra Success to just hit you and made them unable to keep rolled 2 Opportunities to Critical Strike you or activate other abilities, you effectively gained the benefit of Earth Stance.
Each time you spend an Opportunity to add an extra kept Opportunity dice to your next Martial Roll, you effectively virtually increased your Ring by 1 for that roll.
Each time you forced an opponent to keep dice with Strife to do what they wanted, you effectively reduced their Composure by 1.

Being good at Air Ring generally means being good at being first, at unleashing Critical Strikes or other Opp-requiring effects, and at Waiting. Waited Critical Strikes are a really, really good way of making the TN of opponent miserable - +1 from Lightly Wounded becomes +2. which can drop chances of success from 70%+ to less than 20% (basically explosion fishing), and the Gravely Wounded becomes +4, making pretty much any roll effectively impossible.

So if you prevented 2 bonus successes from turning into Damage, you gained effective +1 Ring Up for Endurance sake. If you prevented at least one attack from connecting, you probably gained multiple Rings worth of Endurance.

Edited by WHW
1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

You can win with the Fire pocket strat if the opponent opened with anything other than Water since you can strifebomb an opponent with 4-6 strife (depending if you have wargear on you) in the first round. This is enough to strife out anyone that fell on a staredown bait, though if the opponent opens with Fire and strifebombs you, you should not bet in the staredown, but then the Fire stancer also can not bet or bet just enough to beat you and then he has the initiative to pursue a nuke to incapacitation, a 2suc-2opp with some dirty trick (like Void downtime + void point shenanigan) in water or he keeps bullying you and Fans the Flames also giving you Dazed (if you aren't in Earth, but if you rolled intitative on Earth the Fire stancer can nuke you to incap or close, or just Earth back and keep you in the back foot).

You can't Earth up if you want to open "for the win" with the good rings on Initiative. You either gamble your duel by going Earth on initiative and giving the opponent the upper hand from the get go or you don't. Earthing up after going first (after opening with an offensive ring) is very risky, since the opponent can stalemate you (Earthing back or nuking you) and you can end up being out of strife to bet next round and get Incapacitaed/Fire pressured into a finishing blow next turn. Either way, first one who Earths is just ceding ground .

Duels are full of mind games, Earthing up is not even close to an unbeatable strategy like it first seemed. It is actually rather weak and a gamble for the most part.

i just think you make it sound way more complicated than it actually is.

for a first strike duel, you win ini and you water strike. theres nothing else. unless the opponent is in earth stance you just won (if you have a decent roll, but with air/void ini + void point... it should go well).

that makes the staredown hyper important (which is cool) and the guy with the biggest composure should be able to win that by bidding.

so basically, if both player don't go for earth stance (they went air or void or fire or water)... you better bid your life during staredown. and hopefully the lower composure guy have a way better ini than the high composure guy because otherwise hes in major trouble.

that is for a duel to first strike. to first blood is almost impossible to win with a crit sev 5 at lower ranks unless you really have a lot of composure and the opponent becomes compromised, so probably better to have a iaijutsu technique and go hard and fast to bring the guy incapacitated.

One thing about Water Striking in Duels: I'm not sure if it is legal anymore. The character sheet specifies that you gain a "second action" to use with Water Stance, which would mean that in duel, you can't draw and strike in the first round - if you draw as your first action, you cant attack with your second action as it requires a roll. In non-duels this is a non issue, because you can bypass that with Waiting Triggers, but in duels Wait isn't necessarily a legal action, so they might have killed the water opening. Probably for the best. I asked about it in my latest email, so if it gets cleaned up, Ill post it somewhere.

7 minutes ago, WHW said:

Waited Critical Strikes

what are these ? that isn't dueling.

you mean the wait action in skirmish ? yeah, it is pretty powerful because of the potential of 2 turns in a row without much drawback if you played your cards right. the "wait" action makes initiative a better statistic for sure.