With regards to Yoda and Keith building a PC version at 2000+ XP...

By his own admission, Keith did that as something of a thought experiment, based upon recurring remarks that the system becomes "completely unplayable" at such high XP levels. So he set out to create a one-shot adventure using characters from the franchise that the players would have no problem believing were such powerful individuals, masters from the Jedi Council, with Yoda and Windu being the foremost of those, and most of those PCs built using just the specs from the F&D core rulebook (as that was what was published at the time for the majority of the careers.

As it's been said, you can build perfectly serviceable versions of Yoda, Windu, and other Jedi Masters at half as much XP, especially if you go by what they accomplish in the films, and only the films. Film-only Yoda is far less impressive a Force user than the expanded lore makes him out to be, and could quite possibly be built on only 1000 earned XP, and getting by with a lower Force Rating by simply having invested XP into upgrades for Move and Protect/Unleash, building him as a Consular/Sage with Ataru Striker for beat-stick prowess.

@Donovan Morningfire I’m not sure why you’d restrict yourself to film only Yoda. If he can go toe to toe with Dooku or Palpatine, he should be on par with them, but he’s at least seven hundred years older than Sidious at the start of the clone wars, he is supposed to know every lightsaber technique (even all the Padawans train in the six techniques), he on screen is probably a Seer, and a Teacher, and after RoTS a Hermit. He’s the grand master of the Jedi order he has to have a lot of Jedi training and he’s a General.

1 hour ago, Eoen said:

@Donovan Morningfire I’m not sure why you’d restrict yourself to film only Yoda. If he can go toe to toe with Dooku or Palpatine, he should be on par with them, but he’s at least seven hundred years older than Sidious at the start of the clone wars, he is supposed to know every lightsaber technique (even all the Padawans train in the six techniques), he on screen is probably a Seer, and a Teacher, and after RoTS a Hermit. He’s the grand master of the Jedi order he has to have a lot of Jedi training and he’s a General.

Age means nothing in this game. A Whiphid or Wookiee gets no benefits from a century of experience before the game starts, and neither does Yoda.

As for knowing all of the lightsaber styles, there is a difference between having knowledge of a style and of actually possessing the Specialization (and its Talents) that shows deep dedication to a style. Padawans learn the concepts of the six traditional styles but these are just in the Lightsaber skill, not in Specializations or Talents unless/until the Padawan chooses to devote themselves down such a path. Yoda too has a high rank in the Lightsaber skill representing knowledge in the forms, but for Specializations and Talents, the one we've seen him demonstrate is Ataru Striker and its signature moves of Hawk Bat Swoop and Saber Swarm.

38 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Age means nothing in this game. A Whiphid or Wookiee gets no benefits from a century of experience before the game starts, and neither does Yoda.

As for knowing all of the lightsaber styles, there is a difference between having knowledge of a style and of actually possessing the Specialization (and its Talents) that shows deep dedication to a style. Padawans learn the concepts of the six traditional styles but these are just in the Lightsaber skill, not in Specializations or Talents unless/until the Padawan chooses to devote themselves down such a path. Yoda too has a high rank in the Lightsaber skill representing knowledge in the forms, but for Specializations and Talents, the one we've seen him demonstrate is Ataru Striker and its signature moves of Hawk Bat Swoop and Saber Swarm.

He’s main job is instructing young Jedi he’s going to have more than a middling level of expertise. Literally most of the Jedi order of the clone wars generation received his instructions.

As for age meaning nothing in the game that’s a deficiency in the game, easily correctable by application of xp.

If you really want to rules lawyer this discussion the proper system for building a nemesis is the npc system which mostly freeform.

49 minutes ago, Eoen said:

He’s main job is instructing young Jedi he’s going to have more than a middling level of expertise. Literally most of the Jedi order of the clone wars generation received his instructions.

As for age meaning nothing in the game that’s a deficiency in the game, easily correctable by application of xp.

If you really want to rules lawyer this discussion the proper system for building a nemesis is the npc system which mostly freeform.

In nursing school, I received instructions from nursing instructors that never worked in the same specialties that I have practiced. That doesn't mean that they didn't give an overview of what lay ahead for me, but the real learning and development came later when I was actually performing the roles. I don't think Yoda is any different in this regard; he knew something about everything that was Jedi, but that didn't mean he personally practiced everything that was Jedi himself.

As for the age bit, pretty much every RPG disconnects starting age and starting XP. In D&D, the 150-y/o elf and the 18-y/o human both start at level 1 with 0 XP. In Star Wars, the 100-y/o Wookiee and the 18-y/o Human both start with 0 XP earned (species starting XP is actually lower for the Wookiee, but that's not based on age/lifespan at all).

Finally, if we're talking (arguing?) about the XP cost of the character, then we are obviously talking about building him as a PC.

The point comes back to the point that Yoda's accolades, as put forth in the canon, make him a master. In that I am in complete agreement with Tramp.

Now you can certainly make a PC that can achieve everything that we actually see Yoda do in the films. That's for sure. But once you factor all of those things...such as being a capable instructor in the styles and master to several prominent masters of varying disciplines..it becomes more problematic.
On a different thread the level of his lightsaber mastery was somewhat debated..and I would point out that Sidious (Film limitations aside) mows down several Jedi masters in a pass. It could be argued that he does so in a turn based on what we see.
So Yoda..if built as a PC/nemesis..should be obscenely strong. THe kind of level where a battle with him in it is almost assured strong.

54 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

In nursing school, I received instructions from nursing instructors that never worked in the same specialties that I have practiced. That doesn't mean that they didn't give an overview of what lay ahead for me, but the real learning and development came later when I was actually performing the roles. I don't think Yoda is any different in this regard; he knew something about everything that was Jedi, but that didn't mean he personally practiced everything that was Jedi himself.

As for the age bit, pretty much every RPG disconnects starting age and starting XP. In D&D, the 150-y/o elf and the 18-y/o human both start at level 1 with 0 XP. In Star Wars, the 100-y/o Wookiee and the 18-y/o Human both start with 0 XP earned (species starting XP is actually lower for the Wookiee, but that's not based on age/lifespan at all).

Finally, if we're talking (arguing?) about the XP cost of the character, then we are obviously talking about building him as a PC.

That's where the conversation makes no sense to me I would never let anyone who couldn't pull of Frank Oz Yoda voice and diction play Yoda as a PC (and liberal quotations of Jedi lore as well). It would ruin Star Wars for me. As a thought experiment I say logic and reason apply, he has over 8x the life experience as his nearest rival.

As Dooku is noted as saying in one of the legends books when he tried to sway Yoda to the dark side he had the realization than Yoda if converted to the dark side would destroy Sidious in an instant. For a light side user in this game to hold their own against a darksider with a force rating of 6 they would likely have to have an 8 fr, because the there are more dark side pips on a force die.

Your right roleplaying games in general are bad reality and/or fiction simulators as they have this thing called game balance to account for. I suspect in the fictional galaxy far far away and a long time ago, people are born with more than one force die if they are strong in the force. Anakin likely started out with a fr of 2 or more in the racer spec.

Yoda is not an instructor in a nursing school he's the grand master of a galactic state sponsored organization of super heroes, and in his youth he was an active knight.

8 hours ago, Eoen said:

@Donovan Morningfire I’m not sure why you’d restrict yourself to film only Yoda. If he can go toe to toe with Dooku or Palpatine, he should be on par with them, but he’s at least seven hundred years older than Sidious at the start of the clone wars, he is supposed to know every lightsaber technique (even all the Padawans train in the six techniques), he on screen is probably a Seer, and a Teacher, and after RoTS a Hermit. He’s the grand master of the Jedi order he has to have a lot of Jedi training and he’s a General.

Mon Mothma was leader of the Rebellion, and she'd crumple like a wet paper towel in front of a semi if put into field combat. So positions of authority doesn't automatically mean one is going to be dominant force in whatever situation they find themselves in. After all, we see a trio of Jedi Masters with expanded lore accolades galore to their names go down like absolute punks in RotS when confronting Darth Sidious, and yet some folks like Tramp and the long-gone and not-remotely-missed forum troll AluminumWolf insisting insisting that Jedi Master must mean overpowered unstoppable badass. While Yoda likely didn't become the Grand Master of the Jedi Order by collecting bottle caps, that doesn't mean every version built of him has to be an unstoppable Force of nature in every circumstance.

As for restricting or limiting what a character can do based upon certain guidelines, that's entirely up to the person creating the stats in question. There was a guy over on the F&D sub-forum effectively pitching a fit over the Vader stat block from Dawn of Rebellion not being able to stand up to his PCs, when those PCs had a few thousand XP under their belts, while Vader himself (whose stats really only cover what's seen in the films and Rebels) was built to be an extremely formidable challenge for PCs with a more normal range of XP.

A couple of guys have in the past on these boards created perfectly viable Knight Level builds of Obi-Wan as of the start of TPM (using XP earned during events of the movie to purchase abilities he displays later in the film) and Kanan Jarrus (same general notion of using XP to add abilities he displays after his debut) for his initial appearance in Spark of Rebellion.

To say nothing of the fact that there are folks who prefer to stick strictly to the movies, and ignore everything else, canon or not; personal example, GM for a game I'm currently in has cited that as far as he and his campaign are concerned, the various events of the Clone Wars series never happened, so if he were to come up with a Yoda stat block, it'd likely only focus on what Yoda does in the prequel films, and it'd be questionable if Ahsoka even existed in his version of the 'verse.

Your remarks underline the core problem with creating stat blocks for named characters, in that there's too much effort on trying to get the character build to cover everything that said named character has done in all Star Wars media. And while the Disney reboot makes this less of a headache than previously given the sheer volume of material created for the Expanded Universe, it can still be more hassle than some GMs want to bother with when coming up with a stat block for "specific named character X." Even FFG didn't try to go that route with providing stats for named characters in Dawn of Rebellion, instead focusing on what was critical for this particular character to be able to do, rather than creating a laundry list of effects to replicate the "one time they did that one thing that they never did again."

It's frankly blind fanboyism that says "oh, this is a named character from the films, so they must be utterly badass at everything they do!" that leads to the sort of bloated builds that again try to cover every little thing the character has ever done no matter how obscure the media, especially when trying to create an NPC stat block that's actually usable in an encounter without overloading the GM with too many options. The guys that did the Knight Level builds of Obi-Wan and Kanan got crap for their builds because of that same blind fanboyism that couldn't accept that neither of those two individuals were truly experts at what they did at the time we first met them. Part of that blind fanboyism is possibly fueled by WEG's rather ham-handed efforts to stat up the Heroes of Yavin with the misguided notion that the characters needed to mathematically succeed every time they attempted a task seen in the films, rather than acknowledge that the stat blocks only needed at least a decent chance to succeed, and that the characters had what a friend of mine calls "movie hero dice" and simply got really good rolls for those adventures, with Luke being a prime example of a character whose player rolled exceptionally well during most of his critical moments in the original trilogy, with ESB being a notable exception to this.

Yeah - it’s likely some people will be very disappointed with an “official” Yoda character write up.

@Donovan Morningfire It’s not even reasonable for you or anyone else to expect FFG to tailer an NPC statblock to an individual GM’s taste (that’s that GM’s job), they can’t read minds and don’t have the time. Nor is it reasonable for you to expect them not to create statblocks for named characters because you or any individual might not like it.

Named characters are useful to GM’s and Players alike, as a reference point, a starting point, or as is.

As for people who want to ignore canon, that’s entirely up to them, but canon is the reference point, they should be the ones making editorial choices for their games, no one at FFG should be worrying about individual tables.

4 hours ago, Eoen said:

As for people who want to ignore canon, that’s entirely up to them, but canon is the reference point, they should be the ones making editorial choices for their games, no one at FFG should be worrying about individual tables.

It's hilarious you say this, as more than a few of FFG's own stat blocks have "ignored canon" in terms of what named NPCs are capable of, with the first example being Lando's stat block in Jewel of Yavin, which explicitly calls out that said stats only address Lando in his role for that specific adventure, and Dawn of Rebellion continuing that trend.

And it's also highly unreasonable for you to go telling others what they should or shouldn't use in their games, or how they should tailor things for their table. But then unreasonable seems to be the order of the day in the Star Wars fandom of late.

4 hours ago, Eoen said:

@Donovan Morningfire It’s not even reasonable for you or anyone else to expect FFG to tailer an NPC statblock to an individual GM’s taste (that’s that GM’s job), they can’t read minds and don’t have the time. Nor is it reasonable for you to expect them not to create statblocks for named characters because you or any individual might not like it.

Named characters are useful to GM’s and Players alike, as a reference point, a starting point, or as is.

As for people who want to ignore canon, that’s entirely up to them, but canon is the reference point, they should be the ones making editorial choices for their games, no one at FFG should be worrying about individual tables.

I agree with you about expectations of named NPC stat blocks.

Canon is a reference point but NPC stat blocks are likely not going to be complete, particularly if the character is a major one. Canon being a reference also isn't canon being dispositive. We've already seen in this thread that some who insist on Yoda being a certain way don't care about sticking to canon and that even if they do want to stick to canon the "implications" of some canon facts provide a vast playground of insisting on a whole bunch of debatable things.

The point is that they are easy to use at the table - not encumbered with so many abilities that the GM is essentially playing a high XP PC at the table. The GM doesn't need that and it gets in the way. If the GM needs the NPC to do something that's not in the stat block, the GM can just do it on the fly if they want.

Also lost in the shuffle is what you say - the stat block serves a particular purpose for GMs and so that's the way it's written (starting point, ideas, usable at the table) - and the debate about creating a PC Yoda has a totally different purpose than a GM Yoda (and even there the point is not to create a complete Yoda but rather for the player to create their idea of the character they'd like to play). This is a game after all and debates about what a PC Yoda would look like are different - but related - to debates about the character Yoda in the canon fiction.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And it's also highly unreasonable for you to go telling others what they should or shouldn't use in their games, or how they should tailor things for their table. But then unreasonable seems to be the order of the day in the Star Wars fandom of late.

I haven’t stated anything to this effect, quite the opposite in fact. I give zero ***** how other people run their games at their tables. I do care that the official publisher is free to publish support material for all of the community to use as they see fit.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It's hilarious you say this, as more than a few of FFG's own stat blocks have "ignored canon" in terms of what named NPCs are capable of, with the first example being Lando's stat block in Jewel of Yavin, which explicitly calls out that said stats only address Lando in his role for that specific adventure, and Dawn of Rebellion continuing that trend.

I’m fine with the way FFG does this Landos role in Jewel of Yavin and Dawn of rebellion is as a supporting NPC. His role in Rebels is seven or eight years before RotJ, and he’s not acting as a General for the Rebel Alliance.

Also why do you feel the need to respond to one paragraph with six, it’s like an essay or something?

All this talk of canon character stats is fascinating, but I wonder if Rise of the Separatists is ever coming out.

15 minutes ago, LStyer said:

All this talk of canon character stats is fascinating, but I wonder if Rise of the Separatists is ever coming out.

I hope so, I thought it was coming out in November.

13 minutes ago, LStyer said:

All this talk of canon character stats is fascinating, but I wonder if Rise of the Separatists is ever coming out.

Hey look, it's this or conspiracy theories about shipping piracy =)

It's being offered by two sellers on Amazon as 'back ordered' due in stock April 19 and April 30.

No idea if they have distribution information FFG isn't revealing.

12 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

A couple of guys have in the past on these boards created perfectly viable Knight Level builds of Obi-Wan as of the start of TPM (using XP earned during events of the movie to purchase abilities he displays later in the film)

Do you happen to have a link to that, or remember the thread title?

8 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Do you happen to have a link to that, or remember the thread title?

Sadly no on either one. I don't even think they were in threads dedicated specifically to those builds, just being posts in threads discussing at what point a PC could be considered a "real Jedi" and how much XP it would take, and the builds themselves being done as rebuttals to the notion that even being a Padawan required a few hundred XP.

I would also add that if we were to factor in the canon assertion that Yoda had mastered all six of the main lightsaber styles, that would mean 10 specializations at least dabbled into, if not maxed out.

3 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Hey look, it's this or conspiracy theories about shipping piracy 😃

It's being offered by two sellers on Amazon as 'back ordered' due in stock April 19 and April 30.

No idea if they have distribution information FFG isn't revealing.

I'd rather prefer the tinfoil hatted mob, than the zealous cultists of canon and whatnot

/Exaggeration/

4 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Do you happen to have a link to that, or remember the thread title?

I created one version in a build-off contest here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/189059-you-build-the-character-9-the-jedi

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I would also add that if we were to factor in the canon assertion that Yoda had mastered all six of the main lightsaber styles, that would mean 10 specializations at least dabbled into, if not maxed out.

Where does canon state he's mastered all lightsaber forms?

I don't even think it's canon that he's mastered or prefers Ataru. I've see all of Clone Wars, read all the canon comics with Yoda, seen the movies, listened to most of the books (all that include Yoda). I don't recall ever seeing it mentioned which lightsaber form(s) Yoda specifically prefers or has mastered. Lightsaber forms are barely even mentioned (Kanan comic and Rebels I can recall specifically, don't recall on specific references Clone Wars).

Don’t mind me. I’m just going to settle in for another patented Tramp Graphics lecture that cherry picks elements from what is now Legends and insists they’re still considered current canon.

5 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Don’t mind me. I’m just going to settle in for another patented Tramp Graphics lecture that cherry picks elements from what is now Legends and insists they’re still considered current canon.

I think he’s right this time. If I remember they mention in the canon Marvel Star Wars comic series.

But it might also just be from a non-canon YouTube video.

I’ll have to go recheck those issues after getting home. While I don’t recall any statements to that effect in the Yoda story, I don’t claim to remember every detail of it, either.