Just now, JBento said:

You crit in duels with Finishing Blow and/or Rising Blade.

I thought you were complaining that Earth stance was too good? There you go, indirect nerf, and it still saves you from Opp-spawned conditions (Burning and Bleeding are REALLY good)

But then it is all about having composure.

Which is again, earth.

Nope, no deal. Current rework is simply better.

6 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

But then it is all about having composure.

Which is again, earth.

Nope, no deal. Current rework is simply better.

First strike Duels SHOULD be about having Composure. And even so, they wouldn't be, because you can just hit people in the face until their Fatigue exceeds their Endurance, and then you autocrit their faces anyway.

EDIT: And increasing Opp cost by 1 in Earth stance for crits STILL doesn't make you want to be in Earth stance for Duels any less if: a) your opponent keeps 5 dice or b) you are aware that Explosive successes are a thing that exists.

11 minutes ago, JBento said:

because you can just hit people in the face until their Fatigue exceeds their Endurance, and then you autocrit their faces anyway.

Lol, indeed. That is how they are with the current earth stance + earth having composure And endurance, makes earth the best dueling ring.

Until rank 3-4 when some funky techniques happen.

25 minutes ago, JBento said:

First strike Duels SHOULD be about having Composure. And even so, they wouldn't be, because you can just hit people in the face until their Fatigue exceeds their Endurance, and then you autocrit their faces anyway.

EDIT: And increasing Opp cost by 1 in Earth stance for crits STILL doesn't make you want to be in Earth stance for Duels any less if: a) your opponent keeps 5 dice or b) you are aware that Explosive successes are a thing that exists.

Keep 5 dices.

Yes. It can happen.

What you think is harder to achieve?

Need 2 success and 3 opp (my earth stance)

Need 3 success and 2 opp (air stance)

Do the math,

Earth stance still better than air... (For that particuliar case)

Also, it would be possible to make it so rank 4+ you need 2 extra opp.

Striking with earth stance is not less good than striking in air stance for duels.

Earth and Air were not balanced.

Earth needed to be slightly nerfed and Air slightly buffed.

Thats my judgement

If you have more than one turn, then Air stance only needs 3 successes and 1 Opp, because it can send 1 Opp forward. Also, 3 successes + 2 Opp might actually be easier, because one success can become 1 Opp/1 succ if it's exploding, whereas 1 Opp can't become 1 success (if you're in Air it can become 1 Opp next turn).

Of course, this is all disregarding the fact that if you roll less Opps than you need you still get to hurt their fatigue, but if you roll less successes you... don't.

20 minutes ago, JBento said:

If you have more than one turn, then Air stance only needs 3 successes and 1 Opp, because it can send 1 Opp forward. Also, 3 successes + 2 Opp might actually be easier, because one success can become 1 Opp/1 succ if it's exploding, whereas 1 Opp can't become 1 success (if you're in Air it can become 1 Opp next turn).

Of course, this is all disregarding the fact that if you roll less Opps than you need you still get to hurt their fatigue, but if you roll less successes you... don't.

A dice have success on about half its faces,

And opportunities on a third of its faces.

Sure, you can play the successes and do fatigue damage. That will never change. It was like that with previous earth stance also. But if you want to hit AND crit (or whatever else you want to activate that targets a character in earth stance) you have to pay 1 more opp.

But you still need to succeed. So that extra opp, is really harder to get than you think.

But it isnt downright "you cant do it".

Now, the important mathematical question would be;

If i need to hit TN2 and need 2opp, what are my chances to achieve it if i have, ring4 skill3 (just an example of a "good" score) ?

If instead i need to hit TN2 and 3opp, using the same stat (ring4 skill3) what is my chance of success?

Then, compared both statistic.

Thst will tell you how good earth stance would still be.

I say, it would need to be about 50% lower chance of success for earth stance to be good enough.

I'd need to do the maths...

49 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

A dice have success on about half its faces     ,

And opportunities on a third of its faces.

Your calculation is leaving out something very important for duels: strife. It is extremely risky to keep strife dice on a duel unless you've hit a good deal of successes on Fire and you are confident that the bonus successes from strife will incapacitate the enemy or you are fighting in Void (which is rare with starting characters). Using opportunities to negate strife is terrible, since they can always be used for something more useful. Without strife dice, there is a similar number of opps and successes on the dice (around 1/3, though explosive successes exist). It is better to miss and use opps for something else than to hit accumulating strife, unless your hit is/will be a critical or incapacitating.

What I mean is that, successes are about as rare as opportunities in duels. Keeping strife successes is a surefire way to lose a duel. This isn't the speculation, this is what happened in the Topaz Championship I've ran: all characters that were trigger happy keeping their strife dice lost by compromising or by trying to avoid compromise and becoming passive (calming breathing + water stance) except for the Ikoma which, somewhat ironically, won the entire thing.

after "some" maths.

it would probably be better to make it so that at rank4, you need to pay 2 extra opp with earth stance (same as air stance does, most probably for a reason...).

because when you are in the ring4 skill3-4 range, stuff gets exponentially easier. since the TN don't really go up. actually, things probably gets way too easy in that game later on because the TN keeps being relatively low on low rank techniques and regular strikes etc.

8 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Your calculation is leaving out something very important for duels: strife. It is extremely risky to keep strife dice on a duel unless you've hit a good deal of successes on Fire and you are confident that the bonus successes from strife will incapacitate the enemy or you are fighting in Void (which is rare with starting characters). Using opportunities to negate strife is terrible, since they can always be used for something more useful. Without strife dice, there is a similar number of opps and successes on the dice (around 1/3, though explosive successes exist). It is better to miss and use opps for something else than to hit accumulating strife, unless your hit is/will be a critical or incapacitating.

What I mean is that, successes are about as rare as opportunities in duels. Keeping strife successes is a surefire way to lose a duel. This isn't the speculation, this is what happened in the Topaz Championship I've ran: all characters that were trigger happy keeping their strife dice lost by compromising or by trying to avoid compromise and becoming passive (calming breathing + water stance) except for the Ikoma, which somewhat ironically, won the entire thing.

understand that.

the question is; if I change earth stance to what i intend to change it to (check 1st page of this thread). is it too good, too bad, or about fair ? compared to Air stance. for the pure mechanical advantage of the stance (not taking anything else that air/earth can do, just the stance).

edit: I am not sure of the answer, earth stance could also be +1opp and 1strife cost. it could be a lot of different things actually. as long as it is not "perfect/binary" as it is now. because that is boring imo.

Just now, Avatar111 said:

understand that.

the question is; if I change earth stance to what i intend to change it to (check 1st page of this thread). is it too good, too bad, or about fair ? compared to Air stance. for the pure mechanical advantage of the stance (not taking anything else that air/earth can do, just the stance).

I think it is about fair if not a slight overnerf. I also want to change Earth, btw. I think it should have a dissuasive effect on top of the increased cost, however. I started thinking about causing strife to do nasty things to people in Earth stance reflecting how frustratingly difficult it is to get the jump into someone that is turtling. Currently I'm thinking about forcing 1 strife for every opp spent against a character on Earth stance and that they get a passive bonus on their Fitness checks against a critical (to reflect the sturdiness of their stance), but not any further bonuses on intrigues (their high composure and decent Shuji already is fine for Earth characters on that department).

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

I think it is about fair if not a slight overnerf. I also want to change Earth, btw. I think it should have a dissuasive effect on top of the increased cost, however. I started thinking about causing strife to do nasty things to people in Earth stance reflecting how frustratingly difficult it is to get the jump into someone that is turtling. Currently I'm thinking about forcing 1 strife for every opp spent against a character on Earth stance and that they get a passive bonus on their Fitness checks against a critical (to reflect the sturdiness of their stance), but not any further bonuses on intrigues (their high composure and decent Shuji already is fine for Earth characters on that department).

The bonus on their Fitness checks to resist criticals instead of being more difficult to crit them makes Earth terrible for duels to first strike, but decent to duels to first blood and good for duels to the death. It also makes generally very sturdy and very hard to kill, even after incapacitation, which reflects how Earth characters worked in previous editions: they were always the last to fall.

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

I think it is about fair if not a slight overnerf. I also want to change Earth, btw. I think it should have a dissuasive effect on top of the increased cost, however. I started thinking about causing strife to do nasty things to people in Earth stance reflecting how frustratingly difficult it is to get the jump into someone that is turtling. Currently I'm thinking about forcing 1 strife for every opp spent against a character on Earth stance and that they get a passive bonus on their Fitness checks against a critical (to reflect the sturdiness of their stance), but not any further bonuses on intrigues (their high composure and decent Shuji already is fine for Earth characters on that department).

the strife for every opp.. is interesting. would you keep it just for conditions and criticals ?

it could also be +1opp and 1strife cost (the +1 opp also have chance to give extra strife from the get go).

i am already changing composure to air/water, and vigilance to earth/water, because i couldn't swallow that a ring (air in that case) was not in either endurance and composure calculation.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

the strife for every opp.. is interesting. would you keep it just for conditions and criticals ?

I think the Earth stance character chooses it whenever opps are expended against them, which is by default yes for anything enemies does to them, but they can also try do dissuade allies from affecting them with opps if they so wish (reflecting stubbornness). It is simply frustrating to do anything nasty against them. In my current idea of rework, criticals and conditions don't have increased costs though. So Earth loses that edge, but gains the fact that any opp used against them is somewhat bad to the opponent, including the great opps from Air/Void/Water that reads people's secrets, demeanor and so on.

With your derived attribute rework, however, yeah, it is more tricky to use this idea of mine.

The only problem with this idea is the effects that target multiple people. This is something I'm thinking about:

opp spends against multiple targets only add strife if the main target (the one the TN is based on) is in Earth stance or on the opp spent to extend the effect to someone on Earth stance.

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

I think the Earth stance character chooses it whenever opps are expended against them, which is by default yes for anything enemies does to them, but they can also try do dissuade allies from affecting them with opps if they so wish (reflecting stubbornness). It is simply frustrating to do anything nasty against them. In my current idea of rework, criticals and conditions don't have increased costs though. So Earth loses that edge, but gains the fact that any opp used against them is somewhat bad to the opponent, including the great opps from Air/Void/Water that reads people's secrets, demeanor and so on.

With your derived attribute rework, however, yeah, it is more tricky to use this idea of mine.

well, with your idea it would still cost you like "2 strife" to crit someone in earth stance. I don't think it is good enough though.

hence why, if it is +1opp cost and 1strife. it starts to be kind of fair.

also, at rank 4 it could increase to +2opp cost and 2strife cost.

the derived attribute change doesn't really change much. sure if you are "all about earth" you have little bit less composure now, but nothing stops you from being an Earth/Air character or Earth/Water character and still have decent composure. Earth still have good shujis to restore strife too. Which makes as much sense as Water having techniques to restore fatigue despite the fact that water is not in the Endurance calculation.

Just now, omnicrone said:

The only problem with this idea is the effects that target multiple people. This is something I'm thinking about:

opp spends against multiple targets only add strife if the main target (the one the TN is based on) is in Earth stance or on the opp spent to extend the effect to someone on Earth stance.

why is it a problem if you target multiple people ? you still get the penalty because 1 guy is in earth stance, same as you would get +1tn if 1 guy is in air stance.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

why is it a problem if you target multiple people ? you still get the penalty because 1 guy is in earth stance, same as you would get +1tn if 1 guy is in air stance.

hmm, good point.

2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

well, with your idea it would still cost you like "2 strife" to crit someone in earth stance. I don't think it is good enough though.

With the bonus to the Fitness check (I'm thinking it gives an explosive success by default, or decreasing deadliness by some amount, ie. it is a mini Hida technique), my objective is to make naked crits to people on Earth to not be that threatening. Which means that unless it is a duel to first strike, the Earth character will laugh at you getting worked up for trying to hurt him and failing while he works on incapacitating your ***.

Reducing deadliness equal to your remaining Endurance (maybe capped by your Physical Resistance) seems like a good idea. This makes Earth dudes really hard to kill in one shot even with good techs like Heartpiercing Strike, but winning a first strike duel against them is... rather easy. I think that is very fitting fluffwise.

Just now, omnicrone said:

Reducing deadliness equal to your remaining Endurance (maybe capped by your Physical Resistance) seems like a good idea. This makes Earth dudes really hard to kill in one shot even with good techs like Heartpiercing Strike, but winning a first strike duel against them is... rather easy. I think that is very fitting fluffwise.

And this doesn't make Hida school skill useless because they can use it while incapacitated or while fighting in other stances.

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

Reducing deadliness equal to your remaining Endurance (maybe capped by your Physical Resistance) seems like a good idea. This makes Earth dudes really hard to kill in one shot even with good techs like Heartpiercing Strike, but if winning a first strike duel against them is... rather easy. I think that is very fitting fluffwise.

lets be fair here, winning a "first strike duel" against anybody is as easy, aside Air right now, which still increase TN by 1.

but its not like being in void, fire or water made you less easy to win against (in a first strike duel).

3 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

lets be fair here, winning a "first strike duel" against anybody is as easy, aside Air right now, which still increase TN by 1.

but its not like being in void, fire or water made you less easy to win against (in a first strike duel).

What I mean is that Earth is almost invincible in a first strike duel RAW, which is really dumb. Air being the best in first strike duels (good focus, better TN to be hit) is also very thematically appropriate.

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

What I mean is that Earth was almost invincible in a first strike duel, which was really dumb. Air being the best in first strike duels (good focus, better TN to be hit) is also very thematically appropriate.

Fire still good also (more successes on strike, and heartpiercing strike), and Water since you can unsheat and attack same round (unless we add that rising cut can crit with 2opps).

ok.. will adjust earth stance to

+1opp and 1 strife

at rank 4 +2opp 2strife

i still feel the +1opp to crit then (either in duel of skirmish) gives them some safeness, but it also help with many things (like against Coiled Serpent Strike etc). the strife on top is really gravy, but it is thematic. i like it. basically you are turtling up so much that the opponent lose its nerves.

instead of the +1strife, it could be +1opp and you get +1 to fitness to resist crit. but i find that very situational. and earth stance needs to be good for all situations (intrigues, mass battles etc).

Pelting Hail technique:

edit: was redundant with iron in the mountain style. so, I canceled my idea.

Pelting Hail Kata:

change the last part by:

"each chosen character receive 2 fatigue or suffer the prone condition. If they are already prone, they are forced to take the 2 fatigue"

opinions ?

41 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Pelting Hail Kata:

change the last part by:

"each chosen character receive 2 fatigue or suffer the prone condition. If they are already prone, they are forced to take the 2 fatigue"

opinions ?

Very different from my idea of rework (mine still give strife), but I don't see a problem with it mechanically