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13 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Simply change Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade kata.

Add:

2 opportunity: if you succeed the target cannot defend against the damage.

(Also note that according to the official errata Rising Blade kata TN is equal to vigilance of the target).

That seems weird. With a standard strike you can do a critical hit with **. Using this, the TN will be higher and you wouldn’t do damage, just a critical strike. Granted it allows you to draw and strike as one action. It just seems weird since it doesn’t appear to be a net gain over a regular strike.

20 minutes ago, AndyDay303 said:

T

That seems weird. With a standard strike you can do a critical hit with **. Using this, the TN will be higher and you wouldn’t do damage, just a critical strike. Granted it allows you to draw and strike as one action. It just seems weird since it doesn’t appear to be a net gain over a regular strike.

That is exactly the purpose.

This kata is not a net gain over a regular strike anyway. It is low damage, can't scale, and can't do crit, and unless the opponent is compromised is a higher TN than a regular strike (most of the time).

The tweak I made basically give this Kata a reason to exist and that is duels to first blood. But even then, it isn't easy to achieve as the TN is higher, and that you need 2opp to do the crit and that the only way to raise the severity is with opp (fire or razor edge, whatever) making a 5+ severity after the opponent fitness resist check not an easy thing.

I do not want to make it "too strong" I just want duels to first blood to be more cinematic and having the possibility of a Iaijutsu win.

Also, this modification actually makes the Center action something interesting. You center first turn to make sure your second turn Iai Kata lands as good as possible.

It also circumvent the "earth stance lockdown" that was making duels to first blood a ridiculous affair.

But only on the Iaijutsu draw, meaning if you dont win with the Iai draw, the duel then goes back to regular wailing.

I am open to listen to any counter argument to this houserule and if, for any reason, it is either too strong or boring. But in my mind, this VERY SIMPLE houserule just really fix all the problems I had with dueling in this edition! And in the end, I think a good houserule is something clean and easy that doesn't require paragraphs of alterations but that fixes a lot of cases.

This houserule is super clean and I think it makes duels to first blood amazing. Open to discussion!

I lack some perspective on this as at my table pretty much all of our duels are to the death.

We have always allowed Iaijutsu strikes to use opportunity to deal criticals, like regular strikes.

1 minute ago, AndyDay303 said:

I lack some perspective on this as at my table pretty much all of our duels are to the death.

We have always allowed Iaijutsu strikes to use opportunity to deal criticals, like regular strikes.

Oh, if you allowed Iaijutsu strike to deal critical strikes it works also (except that it makes Crossing Cut waaay too strong, and that Earth stance can lockdown the duels to first blood).

I think my latest fix is more elegant. But you do whatever works fine for your table!

Testing some tweaks to the Incapacitated Condition. An idea I stole from a fellow on facebook. having played many sessions already and always finding the Incapacitated condition weird and anti-climactic, I think his fix makes for a much better game overall!

Clearly looking for opinions this change, lets call it a "beta" state. But I have a good feeling about it. Really good! Try it.

Since we are nearing 20k views (insane! even if around 500 must have been myself...) I wanted to share with you some quick reference sheets that I use for my games.

Reference Sheets: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-1LBhOoFqXAYkpnqCPMMnUKaOLz42hEn/view?usp=sharing

thank you! and keep enjoying L5R rpg!

On 8/23/2019 at 3:22 AM, Avatar111 said:

Since we are nearing 20k views (insane! even if around 500 must have been myself...) I wanted to share with you some quick reference sheets that I use for my games.

Reference Sheets: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-1LBhOoFqXAYkpnqCPMMnUKaOLz42hEn/view?usp=sharing

thank you! and keep enjoying L5R rpg!

Hello,

First of all, thank you for all the effort put into this. I just started with 5th Ed. (although I have been playing the game since 1st), and really appreciate all the discussions to fix the weak points of an (otherwise) very interesting take on the game.

My only concern is that it seems to me like some parts of the "improved rules" you proposed are missing (you discussed some parts like "prediction" or the stances on this thread, but the "final" version on the first post seems to be incomplete). Could you please check it, or tell me where to find your whole version of the fixed dueling system?

Once again, thank you very much for your kindness.

5 hours ago, isgaarda said:

Hello,

First of all, thank you for all the effort put into this. I just started with 5th Ed. (although I have been playing the game since 1st), and really appreciate all the discussions to fix the weak points of an (otherwise) very interesting take on the game.

My only concern is that it seems to me like some parts of the "improved rules" you proposed are missing (you discussed some parts like "prediction" or the stances on this thread, but the "final" version on the first post seems to be incomplete). Could you please check it, or tell me where to find your whole version of the fixed dueling system?

Once again, thank you very much for your kindness.

Hi,

Thx for the interest. The fixes went trough many versions, a lot of the changes were reverted or altered. The definitive version is what you can find in the first page post.

I wanted to keep the changes as concise as possible.

Am I happy with a lot of the parts of this system? No. Does it really matter? No. At least not when it comes to exact balancing.

What is left of the changes are really the main things that are touching what I felt were CORE issues.

If you have opinions, or feel like you have better ideas (or additional ideas), please feel free to share. A lot of the things I have in my houserules come from many different sources and people.

On 11/22/2019 at 3:36 PM, Avatar111 said:

Hi,

Thx for the interest. The fixes went trough many versions, a lot of the changes were reverted or altered. The definitive version is what you can find in the first page post.

I wanted to keep the changes as concise as possible.

Am I happy with a lot of the parts of this system? No. Does it really matter? No. At least not when it comes to exact balancing.

What is left of the changes are really the main things that are touching what I felt were CORE issues.

If you have opinions, or feel like you have better ideas (or additional ideas), please feel free to share. A lot of the things I have in my houserules come from many different sources and people.

This is the final take I have come up with your ideas and some minor tweaks on my side. Please let me know your comments and help me improve it further:

Custom Iaijutsu Duel Mechanics

Phase 0—Assesment:

Assessment Phase:

Both players roll a TN 1 Void - Sentiment prior to taking stances. If successful, the character learns 1 piece of information about their opponent. For each bonus success, they learn one additional piece of information. The information they can learn are: The value of 1 ring (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Void), the value of 1 derived attribute (Endurance, Composure, Focus, Vigilance), the value of 1 skill (Martial Arts [Melee], Meditation), the opponent's current Strife, or any Iaijutsu Kata the oponent has access to.

Prediction:

This is another special step a it is done during Phase 0 in the first round (but it will be taken at the start of Phase 2: Take Turns each round after the first).

The character secretly selects a Stance for his opponent and writes it down. The next time the opponent chooses their stance (during the next Action phase), he may reveal his selection. If it matches the stance they chose, the opponent suffers 4 strife and can only use half his ring value for dice rolls during the next roll using that ring ( 1 & 2=1, 3 & 4=2, 5=3 )

Phase 1—Initiative:

Initiative:

For a duel, every character selects a ring to roll initiative and adopts such ring stance. The base initiative value for each opponent is their Focus, then every character rolls a TN1 Meditation check (using the selected ring) and add successes to their Focus value to create their effective Initiative value for the full duel (this could be modified every round by bidding during Staredown on phase 2).

Phase 2—Take turns:

Staredown:

As tension mounts during a duel, even the most stoic of samurai feel a building pressure. The warrior’s senses are elevated, and even the crunch of gravel or a cicada’s cry becomes thunderous. This is the staredown, a special step at the start of Phase 2: Take Turns each round.

During the staredown, each character receives strife equal to the number of the round they are in (1 strife for the first round, 2 for the second, 3 for the third, and so forth).

Additionally, after receiving this strife, each character who is not Compromised may bid additional strife to increase their initiative value for that round. To bid, each participating character secretly chooses a number between 0 and their focus attribute. Then, all simultaneously reveal their number, and each suffers that amount of strife and adds it’s value to their effective Initiative value to calculate their Final initiative for the current round only.

Prediction:

This is another special step, taken at Phase 0 during the first round, but during “Phase 2: Take Turns” each round in rounds 2 and successive.

The character secretly selects a Stance for his opponent and writes it down. The next time the opponent chooses their stance (during the next Action phase), he may reveal his selection. If it matches the stance they chose, the opponent suffers 4 strife and can only use half his ring value for dice rolls during the next roll using that ring ( 1 & 2=1, 3 & 4=2, 5=3 )

Actions:

Each opponent acts per initiative order selecting a stance for the round ( Except the first, as you have already selected a stance this round on Phase 1: Initiative ) and taking one of the actions listed below (if they are tied, the one with the lower honor acts first). A duel does not last a fixed number of rounds. At the end of each round, if either character achieved their objective, the duel ends and proceeds to Phase 3: Resolution. Otherwise, the duel returns to Phase 2: Take Turns and continues for an additional round. At the end of the round, each character’s initiative value resets to its Effective value.

- Focus (AIR). The character rolls Air (Meditation) check. Every success adds 1 to their initiative. Effective value. Opportunities can be used to learn extra pieces of information like the previous assessment roll on Phase 0.

- Intimidate (FIRE). The character rolls a (TN= adversary’s Vigilance) Fire (Command) check to try to unsettle his opponent. If successful, every opportunity spent inflicts 2 strife to their opponent.

- Center (VOID). The character rolls Void (Meditation). He may reserve any number of these dice up to their Void ring. If he does so, the next time he makes a skill roll he may roll one fewer die for each reserved die, then add the reserved dice to the result.

- Calming breath (ANY): If your strife is greater than half your composure, you remove 1 strife. If your fatigue is greater than half your endurance, you remove 1 fatigue.

- Prepare Item (ANY): As a support action, prepare item for use or ready weapon in a grip of your choice, or stow an item

- Unique action (ANY): Varies. If required by the situation and according to the GM criteria.

- Strike (ANY): As an Attack action using one readied weapon, you may make a TN 2 Martial Arts check using the appropriate skill for the weapon, targeting one character within the weapon’s range. If you succeed, you deal physical damage to the target equal to the weapon’s base damage plus your bonus successes. Alternatively, use a Iaujutsu kata full text.

New Opportunities: If you succeed on a strike or kata, use 2 OPPORTUNITIES to inflict a critical strike on your target with severity equal to your weapon’s deadliness.

The finishing blow:

As a combatant begins to make a move, a gap sometimes opens in their defenses, giving their foe a chance to end the fight with a well-placed attack.

The first time their opponent becomes Compromised or unmasks during a duel, a character may immediately execute a finishing blow. This is a special action that can be performed out of turn.

A character executes the finishing blow by choosing an Attack action and performing it against their opponent, interrupting anything their target is doing (including resolving a check of their own, in which case the finishing blow resolves during Step 6 of the check, after (STRIFE) symbols are resolved but before (OPPORTUNITY) is spent). One finishing blow can even interrupt another!

If the character executing a finishing blow succeeds, instead of dealing damage, the finishing blow inflicts a critical strike with severity equal to two times the deadliness of the weapon or Attack action used, plus the attacker’s bonus successes. Any other effects of the Attack action are resolved as usual.

If two characters trigger finishing blows simultaneously for any reason (such as the mandatory strife gained during the staredown), the one with the lower honor fully executes their finishing blow first, then the other character executes theirs (assuming they are still alive!).

If the duel’s objective is achieved by the finishing blow, the duel ends immediately. Otherwise, the duel picks up where it left off (including returning to resolving a check, if one was interrupted).

Phase 3—Resolution:

If the duel is to first strike, first samurai to connect a blow wins. If the duel is to first blood (critical of severity 5 or more), incapacitation (warrior's test), or death, then it just goes on like a skirmish.

Reduce your final score on the scoring table (page 261) per a value equal to the total number of strikes rolled per every strike after the first. IE: 2 strikes = 2x1 (-2); 3=3x2 (-6); 4=4x3 (-12); 5= 5x4 (-20) and so on.

It feels like even more of a bloated design than the original design, which is already overly bloated.

The extra assessment phase, and the extra actions, are a bit too much.

Before adding layers of rules, we need to figure out how current duels play out, and what we want to achieve.

What are your main issues with duels to first strike, first blood, and to the death?

9 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

It feels like even more of a bloated design than the original design, which is already overly bloated.

The extra assessment phase, and the extra actions, are a bit too much.

Before adding layers of rules, we need to figure out how current duels play out, and what we want to achieve.

What are your main issues with duels to first strike, first blood, and to the death?

Hello again, and regarding my reasons:

1. The extra assessment is meant to mimic the old edition duels. I like that there is more to it than being a good swordsman, and this gives an edge to the more "spiritual" characters.

2. Then is the game of Predictions: I really like that mini-game, but as everyone agrees, there is no point to waste your action guessing when the other guy is hitting you until he can crit you. So now everyone gets a prediction every round, and the mini-game gets to be played (it is fun!).

3. The new actions FOCUS and INTIMIDATE allow the duel to be more strategic, as now you must choose between improving initiative for when you get your chance, to calm down and recover Strife to win in the long-run, or perhaps try to push the opponent to their strife limit to get yourself a Finishing Blow. I added the penalties to dueling score for multiple attacks to further encourage to be a real Iaujutsu duel, not a slugfeast: (only one strike -but a critical one- , so no more wearing down the opponent Fatigue with strikes every round until depleted). The idea is to allow for real options and choice of a strategy to win your duel, besides just hitting him every round until able to crit. the opponent.

4. My issue with RAW is that the game has many Duel Actions options, but only one (striking every turn like there is no tomorrow) is the optimal one. Now you can choose your strategy to get a Finishing Blow, and by assessing, guessing and choosing your actions you can try to win it your way. Resist your own strife, push the opponent's strife, and try to improve your initiative for the next round when you hope that you can finally strike a Finishing Blow are all valid strategies.

I am aware that I made the mechanics more complicated, but feel like RAW there is no use for most options, and the duel is pretty much just a skirmish (as there is no point to do anything but strike as much and as soon as you can). With this rules you wait for the perfect time, the perfect strike. Some samurai are lighting-fast, some samurai are tough or have the nerve to wait and wait (playing the long-strife game) and yet others will try to feint and get you nervous, to the point where they have you drawing before that perfect moment, forcing that mistake that will allow them the Finishing Blow they want.

Do you think there is some way to avoid the "duel is just a skirmish" problem? I entered the thread because I saw this problem frequently mentioned, and most of my mechanics are the ideas that the forum members presented here. If you have some idea to make Predict , Center or Calming Breath actions a real option for the duel, I would love to hear them. I am aware my system is more cumbersome, but it is the only way I see they can be used in a non-sub-optimal way in dueling.

Do you think something is too overpowered or not balanced, any improvement suggestions? I thank you for your help and apologize for my mistakes (or if I sound rude), but English is not my mother tongue (I am from Spain). Once again, I welcome all criticism and ideas, as I would like nothing more than to have this alternative rules simplified while allowing options for different strategies...

I still feel like Calming Breath needs to be improved, probably by allowing a roll, so you can generate and use Advantages (to reduce Strife or get other benefits).

Also, I love the idea of having 5 options (Duel Actions) besides Striking -one tied to each ring- to make it more thematic:

Focus (AIR) --> Boost Initiative

Intimidate (FIRE)--> Force Strife on opponent

Calming breath (WATER)--> R educe your Strife/Fatigue

Center (VOID) --> Improve dice results

...

So I need one for EARTH

Also, I want to make sure that all have a roll involved, because no roll equals no chance to get Advantages (or Strife), and therefore are sub-optimal options, and deprive the game of their main mechanics. Help me please!!!

thing is, duels are already very complex as is...

yes. they are a strike fest, but that doesn't mean they are not "ok".

only the duel to first strike really "strike me" as being totally broken. the other form of duels are... not that bad.

center and predict are "so so" indeed. but even without them, duels have almost enough complexity put into them. it really is all about managing that strife. probably TOO MUCH about managing the strife, because it makes lower composure characters very bad at dueling (aside Kakita who's got his ability to bybass the duel getting to that point).

i've seen many duels go on and on, with both opponent having 2 or 3 severely wounded ring, simply trying to conserve or ditch strife.

also, when it comes to dueling, as a GM, you need to follow the speed of your players.

sure if your players are super proficient with the bloated and messy rules of this game, and come up with all kinds of tricks to always win... then, you need to add a bit of spice.
but as a GM, you cannot use the system to demolish your PCs.. and the duel system is ABSOLUTELY unforgiving (which is a bit of a flaw, I never liked that type of very deep and tactically gamey depth in ttrpg, personally i prefer narrative style).

that was just a tip, but yeah, go at the speed of your PC... because otherwise you will use a shenanigan to obliterate them, and obliterated they will be with a finishing blow.
I also usually, at least for "formal duels" show the rings/skill of the NPC they are dueling. It helps the duel become a real tactical game. because if the PC doesn't know the NPC stat, but the GM knows the PC stat, then it is just stupid and the result is dependant on how the GM feels (which is not fun when it is clearly obvious the PC had no control but the GM add a ton) You need to let the PC know the NPC's composure, fatigue etc. This way, it can really become a tactical and mindgamey thing. Plus, it makes your PC feel real good when they finally win and it makes the GM "fudging" a little bit more subtle.

Duels are too much won on a single decision (+/- 2 strife here, winning ini there... etc) to be "fun" when one side have less information than the other side.

This is fine for skirmish, but skirmish usually don't end up with a finishing blow and a ruined character.

8 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

also, when it comes to dueling, as a GM, you need to follow the speed of your players.

sure if your players are super proficient with the bloated and messy rules of this game, and come up with all kinds of tricks to always win... then, you need to add a bit of spice.
but as a GM, you cannot use the system to demolish your PCs.. and the duel system is ABSOLUTELY unforgiving (which is a bit of a flaw, I never liked that type of very deep and tactically gamey depth in ttrpg, personally i prefer narrative style).

that was just a tip, but yeah, go at the speed of your PC... because otherwise you will use a shenanigan to obliterate them, and obliterated they will be with a finishing blow.
I also usually, at least for "formal duels" show the rings/skill of the NPC they are dueling. It helps the duel become a real tactical game. because if the PC doesn't know the NPC stat, but the GM knows the PC stat, then it is just stupid and the result is dependant on how the GM feels (which is not fun when it is clearly obvious the PC had no control but the GM add a ton) You need to let the PC know the NPC's composure, fatigue etc. This way, it can really become a tactical and mindgamey thing. Plus, it makes your PC feel real good when they finally win and it makes the GM "fudging" a little bit more subtle.

Duels are too much won on a single decision (+/- 2 strife here, winning ini there... etc) to be "fun" when one side have less information than the other side.

This is fine for skirmish, but skirmish usually don't end up with a finishing blow and a ruined character.

To be honest, I don't mind duels taking a long time. There are a critical part of the game, and the minigame involved is cool and full of tension. Building strife over the rounds is a great mechanic, and I think it pays good homage to "spirit of previous editions", where round after round the tension was escalating. Is true that the duel that needs more fixing is the first blood one, but it is the one I tend to go for more often. "To the death" duels are reserved for critical moments and characters, not your everyday way to solve problems in my games.

I love your idea of sharing with the PC's the opponent rings to even things out, although I don't fear to obliterate them. I tend to overprotect my PC's (I like good mechanics, but I really love narrative in my RPGs and usually I am the #1 fan of the PC's), so even if I may defeat them eventually, rarely let them die -even in highly lethal games such as this- There are far worse things than death, and are always more interesting.

I really would like to have a fifth action for the EARTH ring, to complete the thematic wheel of the 5 rings in dueling. Please share any ideas so I can try to come up with something!!!

29 minutes ago, isgaarda said:

To be honest, I don't mind duels taking a long time. There are a critical part of the game, and the minigame involved is cool and full of tension.

Agreed, with a slight caveat;

Duels are iconic moments in the game, and should rightly be tense and flavourful. They are also, however, unashamedly focusing the spotlight on two individuals, one of whom is (hopefully!) normally an NPC. Therefore the duration of a duel is 'dead time' for everyone else around the table who isn't controlling a duelling character.

Most reasonable players don't mind another player having the spotlight for their Crowning Moment of Awesome*, but you need to figure out how long your table will let it go on for before they realise that all but one of them are basically sat there like lemons. There is no 'right answer' to this, but it's why I'm a fan of duels which won't take more than 2-3 rounds to resolve.

Honestly, if you really want the 'one cut' duel, I would seriously consider using the one-roll-duels sidebar.

9 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

center and predict are "so so" indeed. but even without them, duels have almost enough complexity put into them.

This. I will happily concede that centre and predict aren't particularly great actions outside specific cases, but the narrative idea of them isn't bad. They just need mechanics which make them actually a meaningful choice.

11 hours ago, isgaarda said:

Also, I love the idea of having 5 options (Duel Actions) besides Striking -one tied to each ring- to make it more thematic:

Focus (AIR) --> Boost Initiative

Intimidate (FIRE)--> Force Strife on opponent

Calming breath (WATER)--> R educe your Strife/Fatigue

Center (VOID) --> Improve dice results

...

So I need one for EARTH

My main issue there is that a given duellist (unless you're looking at really high level characters) will only have 1-2 rings which are 'useful'. I get a desire for a multi-dimensional game of katana-scroll-stone but part of the issue is that when only a couple of the options are viable for your character (and if you have to make a check you're depending on the rings so you can be left unable to do stuff) then the choice often narrows to only 1 option anyway.

Now, as to your suggestions?

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:00 AM, isgaarda said:

Focus (AIR). The character rolls Air (Meditation) check. Every success adds 1 to their initiative. Effective value. Opportunities can be used to learn extra pieces of information like the previous assessment roll on Phase 0.

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:00 AM, isgaarda said:

Intimidate (FIRE). The character rolls a (TN= adversary’s Vigilance) Fire (Command) check to try to unsettle his opponent. If successful, every opportunity spent inflicts 2 strife to their opponent.

Fine. These are basically the same as using a unique action with no real 'effect' and spending the opportunities, just formalised. I like the idea of using air to increase focus.

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:00 AM, isgaarda said:

Center (VOID). The character rolls Void (Meditation). He may reserve any number of these dice up to their Void ring. If he does so, the next time he makes a skill roll he may roll one fewer die for each reserved die, then add the reserved dice to the result.

Now this is a change, and probably a good one. Allowing the player to 'harvest' ring die results as well as skill dice instantly makes Centre more appealing - it's a risk to do so in a duel-to-first-blood or duel-to-first-strike, since it requires you to be in a 'vulnerable' stance, but the risk of allowing your opponent one 'un-improved' attack in return for getting an 'improved' attack where you're confident you can get the or results a weaker duellist needs to land a successful strike with a critical strike can be acceptable.

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:00 AM, isgaarda said:

Calming breath (ANY): If your strife is greater than half your composure, you remove 1 strife. If your fatigue is greater than half your endurance, you remove 1 fatigue.

11 hours ago, isgaarda said:

I still feel like Calming Breath needs to be improved, probably by allowing a roll, so you can generate and use Advantages (to reduce Strife or get other benefits).

If you want to change it, I strongly recommend creating a new action rather than having the same name used for different things (not that it's also used in skirmishes as well as duels). Calming Breath doesn't really need to be improved - and really shouldn't have a check associated with it - precisely because it is a water stance action. Calming breath is something one can do as the 'free' water stance action whilst you strike (or perform a unique action to remove more strife, activate a shuji, or whatever)

* Or humiliating death. But them's the breaks.....

47 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Agreed, with a slight caveat;

Duels are iconic moments in the game, and should rightly be tense and flavourful. They are also, however, unashamedly focusing the spotlight on two individuals, one of whom is (hopefully!) normally an NPC. Therefore the duration of a duel is 'dead time' for everyone else around the table who isn't controlling a duelling character.

Most reasonable players don't mind another player having the spotlight for their Crowning Moment of Awesome*, but you need to figure out how long your table will let it go on for before they realise that all but one of them are basically sat there like lemons. There is no 'right answer' to this, but it's why I'm a fan of duels which won't take more than 2-3 rounds to resolve.

Honestly, if you really want the 'one cut' duel, I would seriously consider using the one-roll-duels sidebar.

Hi, and thank you for joining in!

I think everyone is tense at the table when your friend is about to lose his character/status/whatever. I think there is no big deal with taking 10 minutes, as we play with only 2 or 3 PC's in the table, and we are all adults and friends.

I want the duel to be solved with one cut, but not with one roll!! I like the mechanics and the mind-games behind the duel. I like it complex and rich until someone finally draws and kills (or just slightly cuts) his opponent. Cinematic outcome, but with heavy crunch underneath!

51 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

This. I will happily concede that centre and predict aren't particularly great actions outside specific cases, but the narrative idea of them isn't bad. They just need mechanics which make them actually a meaningful choice.

My main issue there is that a given duellist (unless you're looking at really high level characters) will only have 1-2 rings which are 'useful'. I get a desire for a multi-dimensional game of katana-scroll-stone but part of the issue is that when only a couple of the options are viable for your character (and if you have to make a check you're depending on the rings so you can be left unable to do stuff) then the choice often narrows to only 1 option anyway.

Now, as to your suggestions?

Fine. These are basically the same as using a unique action with no real 'effect' and spending the opportunities, just formalised. I like the idea of using air to increase focus.

Now this is a change, and probably a good one. Allowing the player to 'harvest' ring die results as well as skill dice instantly makes Centre more appealing - it's a risk to do so in a duel-to-first-blood or duel-to-first-strike, since it requires you to be in a 'vulnerable' stance, but the risk of allowing your opponent one 'un-improved' attack in return for getting an 'improved' attack where you're confident you can get the or results a weaker duellist needs to land a successful strike with a critical strike can be acceptable.

If you want to change it, I strongly recommend creating a new action rather than having the same name used for different things (not that it's also used in skirmishes as well as duels). Calming Breath doesn't really need to be improved - and really shouldn't have a check associated with it - precisely because it is a water stance action. Calming breath is something one can do as the 'free' water stance action whilst you strike (or perform a unique action to remove more strife, activate a shuji, or whatever)

That is why I need to make Center and Predict viable options! I want different styles of duelists, each focusing in one different strategy/ring.

In my mind, the duel should take (normally) 3 or 4 rounds, whilst everyone builds their strategy (initiative, defense, Strife management, building good dice results for achieving a critical strike...) before the actual strike. If you think about it, it is more or less how it used to work in 1st and 2nd Ed. (which I liked) or even 4th Ed.

I may re-name the Water Action to leave Calming breath "unchanged" (good suggestion), but I still need to find my EARTH action to round the 5 rings approach. Anyone... ideas?

Thank you all!

46 minutes ago, isgaarda said:

but I still need to find my EARTH action to round the 5 rings approach. Anyone... ideas?

Well, 'predict' is an action you've not used in your list above, and Earth is often typified by more defensive, 'be-prepared' approaches.

You just need to figure out what it does. The basic mechanic - I guessed what you were going to do, you did it, gotcha, have a load of hurt - is fine, but as @Avatar111 often points out, the execution is flawed because the effect is rarely meaningful enough to justify wasting one of my 3-4 'non-compromised' actions on in a duel. It can tip a fight in niche cases, such as preventing an opponent with no iai techniques from drawing and striking in one round, but it's hardly good enough to form the basis of an earth-duellist's style.

I feel that the current ring stance and opportunities already clearly define duelling style.

Water is better than iaijutsu, and most importantly, can REDUCE strife, which is the difference between losing and winning a lot of the time. One of the best stance, but you will probably get forced out of it by taking a crit.

Earth is earth, it totally breaks duels to first strike (avoid those anyway). But for duels to first blood, it is a valid "defensive" option that is not necessarily too strong since it doesn't affect strife. You are gambling on your endurance while using earth, but you need to play conservative because strife will endanger you. Fortunately, you roll less resist checks in earth so there is that source of strife that you avoid.

Fire is risky, but very good. Can do a ton of damage, but more importantly, can put strife on an opponent! Again, that is how you win duels. It can also give you a chance to resist a critical strike a bit more easily.

Void is great. The strife advantage is absolutely major. And the opportunity can setup a solid followup.

Air... Well... Is probably the weakest, but it can give you an edge at low ranks. And that lucky moment when the +1tn will save you will make you smile.

Most duels to first blood or death will end up with both duellists having 1 to 3 wounded rings. Because it is "not that hard" to reduce a critical below 5 (usually requires 3 or maybe 4 successes). So I'd say 90% of duels end up on a finishing blow, which is huge! Unless against a Kakita in a duel to first blood... Against this guy, you are in trouble... You probably need to rely in earth stance.

Again, duels are not really "1 strike" in this game. Iaijutsu kata "cannot" win a Iaijutsu duel by themselves (weird but that is what it is).

It is all about strike-strike-strike and many times, you only use opportunities even if it cost a miss. It is almost all about Composure. And all stances have something to offer, aside Air, which I feel is a bit weaker once you hit rank 2-3. Haven't tested it at rank 4 when it is +2tn.

All that to say. I really do not think you need to add complexity to duels..

Sure, Predict is super niche. But in some cases, it is your only option. Most of the time to stop the earth stance, but sometimes because gambling is all you can do. Just make sure you do not gamble against a high void opponent...

Center, well, I don't get it. I really don't. But with my only duel houserule (iaijutsu cut rising blade). It becomes a bit more interesting.

2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Earth is earth, it totally breaks duels to first strike (avoid those anyway).

To be honest, of all the house-rules I've seen, the one I think is 'best' is to change Earth Stance to demand extra when targeted with abilities in the same way Air Stance forces you to have extra or .

Earth Stance doesn't just mess with duels - it's also an issue for 'dirty tricks' fighters in skirmishes (and to a lesser extent intrigues and mass battles).

1 minute ago, Magnus Grendel said:

To be honest, of all the house-rules I've seen, the one I think is 'best' is to change Earth Stance to demand extra when targeted with abilities in the same way Air Stance forces you to have extra or .

Earth Stance doesn't just mess with duels - it's also an issue for 'dirty tricks' fighters in skirmishes (and to a lesser extent intrigues and mass battles).

I've seen more and more people mention this "fix" to Earth Stance... it is true that earth stance is pretty much "boring". And +1 opport is arguably better than needing an extra success (air stance).
Would you make it +2 opport at rank 4 ? like Air ? (I really think it needs to be).

The fix might make Earth Stance a bit weak... That is my only concern. But yeah, nothing more boring than a big bad NPC/Monster always in earth stance, making combat sooooo dull.

I really might cave in and add this to my houserules... lol.

6 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Would you make it +2 opport at rank 4 ? like Air ? (I really think it needs to be).

That's what I meant by "in the same way as Air Stance". I've no problem with it being massively difficult to trigger an ability against an earth stance defender, but there should be a chance - especially since even minion NPCs benefit from stance effects.

It's quite noticeable even against relatively weak opponents; a samurai's default 'sidearm' is a wakizashi, which has a very low damage against anyone with a shred of armour, but an absolutely brutal deadliness. For combat against, say, bandits or goblins, that means a courtier who finds herself ambushed should be doing fatigue in 1 point dribs and drabs with the short blade but any critical is basically 'instant death'. Which feels right.

The problem is that no matter how mismatched the engagement - whether we're talking a summoned Oni against a rank 2 PC, or a rank 6 PC against a peasant, earth stances just says "N ope. You can't do that ."

As a rule, blanket prohibitions are almost always worse in an RPG than " Yes, but...." with an extended list of difficulties, conditions, and criteria - because meeting them forces the PCs to (a) work together and (b) think, instead of just give up.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

That's what I meant by "in the same way as Air Stance". I've no problem with it being massively difficult to trigger an ability against an earth stance defender, but there should be a chance - especially since even minion NPCs benefit from stance effects.

It's quite noticeable even against relatively weak opponents; a samurai's default 'sidearm' is a wakizashi, which has a very low damage against anyone with a shred of armour, but an absolutely brutal deadliness. For combat against, say, bandits or goblins, that means a courtier who finds herself ambushed should be doing fatigue in 1 point dribs and drabs with the short blade but any critical is basically 'instant death'. Which feels right.

The problem is that no matter how mismatched the engagement - whether we're talking a summoned Oni against a rank 2 PC, or a rank 6 PC against a peasant, earth stances just says "N ope. You can't do that ."

As a rule, blanket prohibitions are almost always worse in an RPG than " Yes, but...." with an extended list of difficulties, conditions, and criteria - because meeting them forces the PCs to (a) work together and (b) think, instead of just give up.

I'm convinced.

@Magnus Grendel I hate to beg, but really, you are obviously an experienced player with a lot of fair and logical insights. You ran the system and have an amazing grasp on it (we are rank 3 in my campaign so I cannot clearly judge beyond that). If you would like to review whats left of my houserules, and point out things that are not needed or, wrong, please do so! thank you if you do!