40 minutes ago, JBento said:

The Crane probably has 5 Vigilance

5 Vigilance is a lot. So much that it is actually the maximum you can have. I mean, if you enter an Intrigue with your bog standard Earth 4 Water 4 Hida Defender and suddenly an Air 5 Water 4 Doji Diplomat shows up then chances are high that your GM is really angry at you and wants your blood.

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

During play? It isn't. Unmasking can be good for your side, if you do it right.  The honor/glory hit can be  leveraged against you, but only if the other side have the actual skills to do it and high composure characters are actually VERY ill equipped to capitalize on breaks of etiquette that comes from unmasking.

If your endurance zeroes in an skirmish, you lose. If your composure zeroes in a intrigue you can actually make it one **** of a lemonade if you play it right (scorpion courtiers are very good at this). 

unmasking good for your side ? well, i dont see that in the examples they give for unmasking. if it was, then who needs composure? unmask away and roleplay it as a good thing. unmasking should always be bad. it can be "less bad" with some techniques. sure it can give you an edge later on to accomplish your task, but you will take an honor/glory hit.

the honor/glory hit can be leveraged against you ? sure, what are the skills/techniques that do that especially ? why would Water and Earth not be able to do it ? if you mean a "technique" sure, only the air technique "the wind blows both ways" do that. i'll give you that point. not enough to say that earth and water are ILL EQUIPPED to capitalize on breaks of etiquette.

10 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Also, if Air had composure, it would be the best ring hands down, no contest. In intrigues it is already the best ring (tied with Void) and it also has the best Invocations. Air is only not that hot on downtime (but Void is simply TOO good on downtime) and Trade, and a "ranged character gimmick" ring for Martial.

in intrigues all rings are good. i really don't see why you think Air is best.

reason / charm / trick / incite all good to me.

and shujis of air are really nothing special.

same as for invocations, all of the rings have good ones.

void is a different beast. it might be too good, or too necessary... hard to tell yet in our game. but it is definitely its "own thing" that im not ready to judge yet.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

in intrigues all rings are good. i really don't see why you think Air is best.

same as for invocations, all of the rings have good ones.

void is a different beast. it might be too good, or too necessary... hard to tell yet in our game. but it is definitely its "own thing" that im not ready to judge yet.

Counterpoint: Fire's invocation package is trash, because pretty much all it gives is hammers. Granted they can be very good hammers, but when I open a toolbox I expect to also see saws and screwdrivers.

1 minute ago, JBento said:

Counterpoint: Fire's invocation package is trash, because pretty much all it gives is hammers. Granted they can be very good hammers, but when I open a toolbox I expect to also see saws and screwdrivers.

they are mostly all damage stuff. agreed. but you need a few of those! what makes you think fire invocations are that bad ? without talking weirdly ?

10 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

in intrigues all rings are good. i really don't see why you think Air is best.

same as for invocations, all of the rings have good ones.

void is a different beast. it might be too good, or too necessary... hard to tell yet in our game. but it is definitely its "own thing" that im not ready to judge yet.

I'm already playing the game and I will tell you, Air characters dominate courts and Scorpion courtiers can (and will) be evil when they unmask, since they can drop the gauntlet and really troll a character on their disadvantages/anxietes (that they learned by having high Air), taking someone down with them, someone usually not as good at socializing and restoring face as them. Air Shuji are the best at getting stuff done in Intrigues and Air ring is the ring where you crack the social armor of people by learning their weaknesses.

Approaches matter. Manipulating (and Inciting) people, are the fastest way to control a court, especially against rivals. Charm and Reason are good, but more defensive and slower than other approaches and their Shuji shows. Also, the Analyze approach for Scholar is vital to narrative scenes and, again, Intrigues. Sentiment (Air) is one of the most rolled skills, if not the most rolled, in my table for a reason. Air is much stronger in live play than you are assessing.

19 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

During play? It isn't. Unmasking can be good for your side, if you do it right. The honor/glory hit can be leveraged against you, but only if the other side have the actual skills to do it and high composure characters are actually VERY ill equipped to capitalize on breaks of etiquette that comes from unmasking.

If your endurance zeroes in an skirmish, you lose. If your composure zeroes in a intrigue you can actually make it one godly of a lemonade if you play it right (scorpion courtiers are very good at this).

Unmasking can be good for your side, but shouldn't be something you want to do. I think players recoiled too hard at the concept of becoming compromised and unmasking, and that FFG in return recoiled too hard on the mechanical implications of such... I wonder if Avatar111 wouldn't look into this as part of his homebrew he's building here. Having seen mostly this thread on it, I think Avatar111 has some good points.

Unmasking should be able to be useful - sometimes - but should mostly be a bad thing. Becoming compromised should be a massive "oh no" moment, and unmasking should be at best an "I hope this works" last ditch effort with severe repercussions...

Just now, Avatar111 said:

they are mostly all damage stuff. agreed. but you need a few of those! what makes you think fire invocations are that bad ? without talking weirdly ?

Fire invocations are slightly superior damage-wise, but that's pretty much all they do. And everything ELSE can already do damage. What you REALLY want out of invocations are nifty tricks that can't be duplicated by the bushi smacking someone in the face, like Air's scrying stuff.

It doesn't help that the actually fun Fire hammers come with caveats: the lightning bolt can only be used outside, though that's relatively easy to bypass. The motes one looks actually fun to use, but it comes with a 1 Opp tax. The Phoenix wings one is, in practice, usable in so few situations that I'm never paying 3 XP for it, unless the campaign is something like Beyond-the-Wall-smack-the-Oni, where no-one will care if I set the whole place on fire.

1 minute ago, omnicrone said:

I'm already playing the game and I will tell you, Air characters dominate courts and Scorpion courtiers can (and will) be evil when they unmask, since they can drop the gauntlet and really troll a character on their disadvantages/anxietes (that they learned by having high Air), taking someone down with them, someone usually not as good at socializing and restoring face as them. Air Shuji are the best at getting stuff done in Intrigues and Air ring is the ring where you crack the social armor of people by learning their weaknesses.

Approaches matter. Manipulating (and Inciting) people, are the fastest way to control a court, especially against rivals. Charm and Reason are good, but more defensive and slower than other approaches and their Shuji shows. Also, the Analyze approach for Scholar is vital to narrative scenes and, again, Intrigues. Sentiment (Air) is one of the most rolled skills, if not the most rolled, in my table for a reason. Air is much stronger in live play than you are assessing.

doesnt happen like that in my game. i see you personally attribute value to what air can do, but mechanically, it isnt the case at all. you can know disadvantages, true. which air shuji you think is that good ??

@omnicrone

also... if you say that air would be too strong with composure instead of vigilance. (because in my setup i merely exchange earth with air in composure/vigilance.

that means you value more composure than vigilance ?

but then you say unmasking can be good ?

you know what, i think you just lost.

19 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

doesnt happen like that in my game. i see you personally attribute value to what air can do, but mechanically, it isnt the case at all. you can know disadvantages, true. which air shuji you think is that good ??

Cadence: can make your unmask have double meaning (still is negative, but can open possibilities) and has all sorts of useful applications (it was a Crane exclusive skill in earlier editions) including greatly offending someone without anyone else noticing.

Prey on the Weak: capitalize on compromised characters, the second effect is really nasty. One of the reasons I said composure characters aren't well equipped to capitalize on unmasking/compromise is because of this Shuji. If Air gave composure this Shuji would be just cruel. On Air vs Air battles the use of this Shuji is really fun, since both are kind of glass cannons that can exploit the first who chickens.

Rustling of Leaves: rumors were always a cornerstone of winning in court in L5R. It is the best way to destroy someone's reputation by maintaining plausible deniability and this Shuji really helps with the second part. Also, rumors are the best way to really capitalize upon a break of etiquette without being passive about it.

Wind Blows Both Ways: just synergy.

Whispers of Court: see Rustling of Leaves.

10 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

@omnicrone

also... if you say that air would be too strong with composure instead of vigilance. (because in my setup i merely exchange earth with air in composure/vigilance.

that means you value more composure than vigilance ?

but then you say unmasking can be good ?  

you know what, i think you just lost.

I think Vigilance is really good and actually more important than Composure (on Intrigues), and the most deadly Courtier kit is Air/Fire, so with your changes this kit would have both decent Composure and Vigilance, both of the core defensive stats of Intrigue. I don't know, seems bad both thematically and mechanically. There are two good Courtier builds (that actually want to accomplish victory in court): Air/Fire is the offensive, Air/Water is the balanced/defensive. Air/Water seems better, being more reliable, and it is fitting since the courtiers with this kit are considered to be the best of the best: Doji Diplomats. Air/Fire is crazy, it can both be deadly and terrifying or cause the courtier to lose a lot of face and look like a bumbling fool, and both of those are applied to the courtiers with this kit: the Bayushi. Your changes buffs Bayushi, but that takes some of the fluff from them by "normalizing" their build and covering their weakness (they always seem lorewise to be either utterly incompetent or utterly terrifying with not much in the middle, which the current crunch actually reflects well).

8 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Cadence: can make your unmask have double meaning (still is negative, but can open possibilities) and has all sorts of useful applications (it was a Crane exclusive skill in earlier editions) including greatly offending someone without anyone else noticing.

Prey on the Weak: capitalize on compromised characters, the second effect is really nasty. One of the reasons I said composure characters aren't well equipped to capitalize on unmasking/compromise is because of this Shuji. If Air gave composure this Shuji would be just cruel. On Air vs Air battles the use of this Shuji is really fun, since both are kind of glass cannons that can exploit the first who chickens.

Rustling of Leaves: rumors were always a cornerstone of winning in court in L5R. It is the best way to destroy someone's reputation by maintaining plausible deniability and this Shuji really helps with the second part. Also, rumors are the best way to really capitalize upon a break of etiquette without being passive about it.

Wind Blows Both Ways: just synergy.

Whispers of Court: see Rustling of Leaves.

I think Vigilance is really good and actually more important than Composure (on Intrigues), and the most deadly Courtier kit is Air/Fire, so with your changes this kit would have both decent Composure and Vigilance, both of the core defensive stats of Intrigue. I don't know, seems bad both thematically and mechanically. There are two good Courtier builds (that actually want to accomplish victory in court): Air/Fire is the offensive, Air/Water is the balanced/defensive. Air/Water seems better, being more reliable, and it is fitting since the courtiers with this kit are considered to be the best of the best: Doji Diplomats. Air/Fire is crazy, it can both be deadly and terrifying or cause the courtier to lose a lot of face and look like a bumbling fool, and both of those are applied to the courtiers with this kit: the Bayushi. Your changes buffs Bayushi, but that takes some of the fluff from them by "normalizing" their build and covering their weakness (they always seem lorewise to be either utterly incompetent or utterly terrifying with not much in the middle, which the current crunch actually reflects well).

endurance: earth/fire

composure: water/air

focus: air/fire

vigilance: earth/water

so no, fire/air doesnt have good vigilence, its more of an offensive kit.

but they would have a tiny bit more composure than they have currently.

the best way to win an argument, is to compromise a target. I think.

and air/water would be very good composure build indeed. but they are very weak in endurence! fair

and earth have lots of shuji to restore strife and/or defend himself. so it is a nice to have.

and water heals fatigue.

see where im going? balance

2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

endurance: earth/fire

composure: water/air

focus: air/fire

vigilance: earth/water

I actually like this, but with a caveat. While this makes the Hida a more "not buying your BS, not getting ganked by goblins at midnight" dude, it now makes the Bayushi really weird, since I see them for sure as more of a high Vigilance/low Composure courtier.

I think the problem is that you think that by having high composure Matsu, Unicorns and Hidas are paragons of court, but that isn't the case. Matsu will blow the fuse without an unmask as soon as you question their honor (or they take that honor and glory hit, which for a Lion is like a double slap in the face), and since they like to compromise they will always be in Fire stance using those strifes for something, thus they will blow that fuse themselves. Hida is thematically appropriate to have the highest composure around. They are trained to "see some xxxx" after all. That doesn't mean they will not be chewed up in a court, since without good social skills (which their curriculum says: screw that) the only thing they can do is hunker down and try to not stand out (which lorewise they are actually decent at). You don't make a Hida break by compromising him, you make a Hida break by goading him (via the manipulative or inciting ways of Air/Fire) to actually become the center of attention and have to say or do something courtly (via rumors or whatnot), his incompetence will do the rest.

8 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Matsu will blow the fuse without an unmask as soon as you question their honor

Playing a game now, there is a Matsu PC, his nickname is 'Matsu Nintendo' . Being Matsu in 5R5 is pure suffering. That is all .

12 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Playing a game now, there is a Matsu PC, his nickname is 'Matsu Nintendo' . Being Matsu in 5R5 is pure suffering. That is all .

Hah! My PC is going to be called Daidoji Toyota, becuas ehe was going to start with a yari.

31 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

I actually like this, but with a caveat. While this makes the Hida a more "not buying your BS, not getting ganked by goblins at midnight" dude, it now makes the Bayushi really weird, since I see them for sure as more of a high Vigilance/low Composure courtier.

I think the problem is that you think that by having high composure Matsu, Unicorns and Hidas are paragons of court, but that isn't the case. Matsu will blow the fuse without an unmask as soon as you question their honor (or they take that honor and glory hit, which for a Lion is like a double slap in the face), and since they like to compromise they will always be in Fire stance using those strifes for something, thus they will blow that fuse themselves. Hida is thematically appropriate to have the highest composure around. They are trained to "see some xxxx" after all. That doesn't mean they will not be chewed up in a court, since without good social skills (which their curriculum says: screw that) the only thing they can do is hunker down and try to not stand out (which lorewise they are actually decent at). You don't make a Hida break by compromising him, you make a Hida break by goading him (via the manipulative or inciting ways of Air/Fire) to actually become the center of attention and have to say or do something courtly (via rumors or whatnot), his incompetence will do the rest.

i understand your caveat. and it makes sense.

i was seeing more "focus" as take initiative, thus bayushi, and vigilance as the one on the receiving end. clearly "offense / defense".

but sure, nothing will ever be 100% perfect ? i am still hellbent on having each ring being in at least composure or endurance calculations.

endurance: earth/fire

composure: water/air

focus: water/fire

vigilance: earth/air

what about this setup ? just for discussion's sake.

17 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

i understand your caveat. and it makes sense.

i was seeing more "focus" as take initiative, thus bayushi, and vigilance as the one on the receiving end. clearly "offense / defense".

but sure, nothing will ever be 100% perfect ? i am still hellbent on having each ring being in at least composure or endurance calculations.

endurance: earth/fire

composure: water/air

focus: water/fire

vigilance: earth/air

what about this setup ? just for discussion's sake.

Don't like vigilance without Water, thematically. This still makes Bayushi more balanced instead of more extreme.

I really like my houserule of favored derived attribute, that I suggested earlier, this fixes most of the out of fluff things for a fresh character, like odd Doji with 6 Composure, without messing with the way the derived attributes work RAW.

RAW I think is a very fine way for them to be arranged considering past edition's ring attributes, though not perfect, I found it best than any alternative presented. RAW derived attributes:

Vigilance I think is reflected as Perception + Reflexes (Water + Air): correct

Focus is Awareness + Agility (Air + Fire): works

Composure is Willpower + Strength (Earth + Water): iffy, but works with some insights on the rings involved lorewise

Endurance is Stamina + Intelligence (Earth + Fire): iffy as well, but also works similarly to Composure

They can also work as:

Vigilance Perception + Awareness (Water + Air)

Focus is Reflexes + Intelligence (Air + Fire)

Composure is Willpower + Perception (Earth + Water): less iffy, but still iffy

Endurance is Stamina + Agility (Earth + Fire): better

5 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Don't like vigilance without Water, thematically. This still makes Bayushi more balanced instead of more extreme.

I really like my houserule of favored derived attribute, that I suggested earlier, this fixes most of the out of fluff things for a fresh character, like odd Doji with 6 Composure, without messing with the way the derived attributes work RAW.

RAW I think is a very fine way for them to be arranged considering past edition's ring attributes, though not perfect, I found it best than any alternative presented. RAW derived attributes:

Vigilance I think is reflected as Perception + Reflexes (Water + Air): correct

Focus is Awareness + Agility (Air + Fire): works

Composure is Willpower + Strength (Earth + Water): iffy, but works with some insights on the rings involved lorewise

Endurance is Stamina + Intelligence (Earth + Fire): iffy as well, but also works similarly to Composure

bayushi

scorpion: air

bayushi: air or fire

bayushi manipulator: air and fire

but who in their right mind will stay at 1water and 1earth ? even if you don't want to focus on these rings, this is INSANITY.

you would have 4 composure, and no water ring to heal composure.

i mean, you are basically unmasking every 2-3 rolls.... how can that be.... ok ? it is like.. so much unmasking that it gets annoying and seriously just make unmasking futile and non-serious.

i think i'm allright with a bit more balance.

2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

bayushi

scorpion: air

bayushi: air or fire

bayushi manipulator: air and fire

but who in their right mind will stay at 1water and 1earth ? even if you don't want to focus on these rings, this is INSANITY.

you would have 4 composure, and no water ring to heal composure.

i mean, you are basically unmasking every 2-3 rolls.... how can that be.... ok ? it is like.. so much unmasking that it gets annoying and seriously just make unmasking futile and non-serious.

i think i'm allright with a bit more balance.

I'll point out that you're most certainly NOT unmasking every 2-3 rolls, because you can only Unmask once per scene. Unless you have very short scenes.

3 minutes ago, JBento said:

I'll point out that you're most certainly NOT unmasking every 2-3 rolls, because you can only Unmask once per scene. Unless you have very short scenes.

oof. you are right!

poor bayushi hes gonna have to enjoy the compromised life.... basically anybody in fire stance will push him overboard every round hahaha

thanks for the argument in favor of a rework lol

THOUGH

even with my rework, youl;l have people with maybe 4 composure... but at least if they have 4 composure they have a good water ring (with my setup) so they kinda can keep themselves afloat.

2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

bayushi

scorpion: air

bayushi: air or fire

bayushi manipulator: air and fire

but who in their right mind will stay at 1water and 1earth ? even if you don't want to focus on these rings, this is INSANITY.

you would have 4 composure, and no water ring to heal composure.

i mean, you are basically unmasking every 2-3 rolls.... how can that be.... ok ? it is like.. so much unmasking that it gets annoying and seriously just make unmasking futile and non-serious.

i think i'm allright with a bit more balance.

a starting Bayushi is Air3/Fire2 most probably. They have Water 2 and Earth/Void 2, but for sure Water 2 which is a good courtier support ring. The Air3/Fire3 bayushi can still have Water 2 and still have ok composure. The 4 composure Bayushi is the bumbling fool the scorpion send out into the empire to keep other clans underestimating the scorpion at every turn ?

Scorpion Air, Bayushi Air, School: Any Ring and Fire, Any Ring (this makes a 3Air/2Fire, Water and Earth/Void) which is the most standard "competent" Bayushi kid.

A more abrasive one: Clan Air, Family Fire, School Air/Fire, Free ring Water: this is a 1 Earth 1 Void Bayushi with 6 composure, but very extreme on his offense. Don't mess with that guy, he will either bury you or make a fool of himself and both will reflect poorly on you if you are near him.

indeed. but you COULD make a 4 composure bayushi 3 air 3fire 2void 1 earth 1water

that is my dude.

really not convincing me that the system works good. earth being in both endurance and composure... irritates me. because yes, i think most of the time, focus and vigilence are not "as good". there are moments they can shine, but rarer.

plus since vigilance is divided by 2, 1 is extremely low, but you will have 2 soon enough (a 2 and a 1 ring). and its not as crucial to me in early game as composure and endurance.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

indeed. but you COULD make a 4 composure bayushi 3 air 3fire 2void 1 earth 1water

that is my dude.

really not convincing me that the system works good. earth being in both endurance and composure... irritates me. because yes, i think most of the time, focus and vigilence are not "as good". there are moments they can shine, but rarer.

Focus is a really bad stat, way worse than the other 3. Vigilance is pretty good, though.

1 hour ago, omnicrone said:

I actually like this, but with a caveat. While this makes the Hida a more "not buying your BS, not getting ganked by goblins at midnight" dude, it now makes the Bayushi really weird, since I see them for sure as more of a high Vigilance/low Composure courtier.

Why do you believe the Bayushi are thematically low Composure?

29 minutes ago, omnicrone said:

Don't like vigilance without Water, thematically. This still makes Bayushi more balanced instead of more extreme.

I really like my houserule of favored derived attribute, that I suggested earlier, this fixes most of the out of fluff things for a fresh character, like odd Doji with 6 Composure, without messing with the way the derived attributes work RAW.

RAW I think is a very fine way for them to be arranged considering past edition's ring attributes, though not perfect, I found it best than any alternative presented. RAW derived attributes:

Vigilance I think is reflected as Perception + Reflexes (Water + Air): correct

Focus is Awareness + Agility (Air + Fire): works

Composure is Willpower + Strength (Earth + Water): iffy, but works with some insights on the rings involved lorewise

Endurance is Stamina + Intelligence (Earth + Fire): iffy as well, but also works similarly to Composure

The way I see it willpower would be the ability to push on in your task rather than becoming worn down, where composure is your ability to appear cool headed. If a characters willpower were eroded I would expect this to be shown by their inability to perform their tasks anymore, as if they were giving up on their goal. Composure does not do this. If you are compromised you are unable to keep strife die - so at first you might think it is being worn down - but the resulting unmask makes me challenge that Composure is Willpower. When you unmask you may actually over-perform your task. You aren't worn down, rather you are done holding back. This isn't a lack of willpower but rather a lack of restraint. It is crucial to see these as two different things.

I would not question a Hida's willpower, but i would question his restraint. I would never question a Bayushi's restraint...

Why do you believe Composure is Willpower?