13 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Then pick a family that gives +1 Earth or Water. The Loremaster and Merchant schools give +1 Earth as well, the Trader school +1 Water. Do you honestly feel they should get less Air and even more Earth and/or Water? Would that fit a Courtier, to have Air as their 3rd Ring?

no, just make Air give more composure.

and Water less composure (but water still have the best ways to "heal up" composure).

that is all.

I like this. I like anything that makes people like the game more.

If I might make one flavor based suggestion? Maybe the Daikyu loses Cumbersome when on horse back - it is supposed to be a horsebow after all!

2 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

I like this. I like anything that makes people like the game more.

If I might make one flavor based suggestion? Maybe the Daikyu loses Cumbersome when on horse back - it is supposed to be a horsebow after all!

suggestion totally accepted. makes sense.

9 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

As an aside, right now for me Void is the obvious dump stat - certainly at first. I see very little reason to want to advance it before you want to get your main Ring to 5, very specific character types notwithstanding (and until we get Ishi, the first such type that would come to mind doesn't even exist in the game).

Void is by far the most powerful Ring right now. All its Approaches are awesome (the only Ring that has this), the Void Opps are great, Void Points are insane when you have lots of them, and you need Void for Rituals. Even better, because of how character creation and advancement works, you lose very little for rushing Void and gain a lot .

Like, at this point, I say that the free Ring increase during character creation must be Void or you should have a very-very good alternate build in mind. Starting with Void 1 is definitely playing the game on Hard Mode.

I don’t think this is a core-rework, just a few house rules. ?

And they all seem fine, for what you want to accomplish.

The only one I’m considering is the school rank punch card system. I hate that characters can just spam one entry to get their exp in a school. Forcing them to take multiple advances across their curriculum feels like you will end up with more rounded characters.

33 minutes ago, DWRR said:

I don’t think this is a core-rework, just a few house rules. ?

And they all seem fine, for what you want to accomplish.

The only one I’m considering is the school rank punch card system. I hate that characters can just spam one entry to get their exp in a school. Forcing them to take multiple advances across their curriculum feels like you will end up with more rounded characters.

definitely not a "core rework" you are right.

aside secondary stat calculation to make courtiers more composure based (as air ring is in every courtier's school), earth stance (too binary for my likings), and resist checks (bloated, slow down game).

aside from that, it is only a few tweaks to some weapons/techniques that i found underpowered, or obnoxious

34 minutes ago, DWRR said:

The only one I’m considering is the school rank punch card system. I hate that characters can just spam one entry to get their exp in a school. Forcing them to take multiple advances across their curriculum feels like you will end up with more rounded characters.

regarding this, the designers already said in an official statement that the ywill rework (in a futrure update/errata)the school curriculums so that they don't include redundancies. so i will remove my houserule for that. at the moment I will just make deals with the player and see what they want to take instead (warrior's resolve / courtier's resolve being to generic options that the devs said can be easily used to replace the redundant techniques).

but your point of view is based on diversity over simply fixing some broken school curriculums. so i can understand that.

39 minutes ago, DWRR said:

The only one I’m considering is the school rank punch card system. I hate that characters can just spam one entry to get their exp in a school. Forcing them to take multiple advances across their curriculum feels like you will end up with more rounded characters.

Spamming one entry is a terribad idea anyway. One-trick ponys are dead ponys, because there's always something really easy to get that shuts them down in their field, and they'll be useless in all other fields. If you don't up your combat capabilities you're getting ganked, and if you don't bump your court capabilities you're getting played in every Intrigue, to the point that the only reason the NPCs aren't goading you into a seppukuable offence is that you're too useful as a weak spot they can pressure to make the entire party scramble to save your *** (and theirs).

MAYBE most characters can skip on artisan and labour skills, I guess (but those don't show up in most curriculums anyway)?

6 minutes ago, JBento said:

Spamming one entry is a terribad idea anyway.

Only if your group is not very high on team play. Otherwise, bust that Assistance out because it is Nuke-O-Clock!

Also, stop participating in scenes where you are useless. Go clear Strife, get some reserved dice, or deal with some side problem that is within your capabilities. Believe me, you won't be missed.

You can't always choose to not participate in those scenes. If your lord summons your party, the WHOLE party better show the **** up. If there's some sort gathering called by someone of higher status? Same.

Some techniques specifically target the lowest value among the targets, too, so have fun with that.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

Only if your group is not very high on team play. Otherwise, bust that Assistance out because it is Nuke-O-Clock!

Also, stop participating in scenes where you are useless. Go clear Strife, get some reserved dice, or deal with some side problem that is within your capabilities. Believe me, you won't be missed.

yeah that is a bit right. and a lot of the things i want to houserule is exactly because my group of players are heavily "tactical/teamplay". hence why some stuff like the wait action or some "cheese" techniques like coiled serpent really take a toll on the gameplay fun.

2 minutes ago, JBento said:

You can't always choose to not participate in those scenes. If your lord summons your party, the WHOLE party better show the **** up. If there's some sort gathering called by someone of higher status? Same.

Some techniques specifically target the lowest value among the targets, too, so have fun with that.

i think he means, "stand aside from the main skirmish etc" and roll random checks to buff other people's strife or what not.

basically playing the game with extremely specialised character and when its time for one specialised character to shine the other all support him in making him a beast.

at least thats how i understand it... it is a bit extreme though and won't always happen like that in regular gameplay.

15 minutes ago, JBento said:

You can't always choose to not participate in those scenes. If your lord summons your party, the WHOLE party better show the **** up. If there's some sort gathering called by someone of higher status? Same.

Some techniques specifically target the lowest value among the targets, too, so have fun with that.

Yeah, of course, if your GM picked you out then nothing can save you, but that's a different problem.

By the way, Intrigues are bad examples here because combat-oriented builds have a tendency to end up as socially adept via interlocking attributes.

26 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Yeah, of course, if your GM picked you out then nothing can save you, but that's a different problem.

The NPCs are ALWAYS going to pick you out if you're the weak spot, because stupid people don't last long enough in Rokugan to be a problem worth calling a problem. You can't "stand aside the main skirmish/intrigue/etc." because anyone with half a brain is going to take out the weak spot/buffer first. Your Bushi that didn't want to buy anything to stand their ground in an Intrigue? Anyone who wants your party out of the room is going to come out Shuji-blazing until they break and insult someone of high status, or worse, they're costing you the entire intrigue if the other side's goal is to spread misinformation (iirc, one of the Shuji that targets lowest Vigilance is the one that spreads rumours, so enjoy being used to make everyone believe your party *gasps* goes to the market themselves or deals with *eugh* butchers).

I mean if the NPCs aren't trying to, y'know, WIN, then you don't have any issues, I guess, though that does raise the question of why your game isn't full narrative and you bother rolling dice.

Sure, there are campaigns where this won't matter, like a Beyond-the-Wall smack-the-Oni campaign, but those should be the overall exception, and not the norm.

Additionally: I never understood this idea that when YOU go for the enemy's weakspot it's just tactics, but when the GM does it then they're just picking on you.

8 minutes ago, JBento said:

Additionally: I never understood this idea that when YOU go for the enemy's weakspot it's just tactics, but when the GM does it then they're just picking on you.

agree with that, in my group we are well aware that the players WILL use tactics and the GM WILL use tactics, downright exploding the weak spot, no quarter.

this is clear from the get go.

obviously, the GM is discouraged to use too much "unfair/metagame" tactics (because after all the DM can do whatever he wants) that would just make it boring and irritating for the players.

but laying out your cards on the table, then playing in a very "tactic" way ? fair play it is.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

agree with that, in my group we are well aware that the players WILL use tactics and the GM WILL use tactics, downright exploding the weak spot, no quarter.

this is clear from the get go.

obviously, the GM is discouraged to use too much "unfair/metagame" tactics (because after all the DM can do whatever he wants) that would just make it boring and irritating for the players.

but laying out your cards on the table, then playing in a very "tactic" way ? fair play it is.

This is part of why I don't get why you'd think Air is weak (overall; it certainly sucks on kata), though you've said you're just now getting into the Invocation chapter and that might explain it, because Invocations aren't just Air's strong suit, it's where Air has better options than everything else (like Water on kata).

10 minutes ago, JBento said:

This is part of why I don't get why you'd think Air is weak (overall; it certainly sucks on kata), though you've said you're just now getting into the Invocation chapter and that might explain it, because Invocations aren't just Air's strong suit, it's where Air has better options than everything else (like Water on kata).

ok, lets forget that air is "weak". it isnt really.

I just think that air should be part of composure calculation, because, nearly 99% of the courtier schools have air ring in their school's ring bonus.

and because, in my mind, courtiers should have higher composure and lower endurance (in general).

that is mostly the reason, i find that aside the "sneaky" characters (shinobis, hiruma scout.. mostly) all the schools that have AIR are courtiers (you can check one of the higher posts to see the breakdown).

so, if it is mainly a "courtier's ring", then i want it to have composure. and according to data, it is certainly a "courtier's ring".

Ok, that logic I understand - I certainly went "wait, what?" when I finished my Daidoji Iron Soldier and realised he started with 8 Endurance and 12 Composure (I could 10/10 him by trading 1 Water for 1 Fire in step... 4?, but nah).

14 minutes ago, JBento said:

Ok, that logic I understand - I certainly went "wait, what?" when I finished my Daidoji Iron Soldier and realised he started with 8 Endurance and 12 Composure (I could 10/10 him by trading 1 Water for 1 Fire in step... 4?, but nah).

yeah exactly... its weird. will toy around with these below numbers and see how we like it (we are pretty much in a "temporary campaign / test campaign" until the first round of errata and empire emerald release. then we will start our big game.

endurance: earth/fire

composure: water/air

focus: air/fire

vigilance: earth/water

that setup basically means a "earth / fire" based character blows a fuse the quickest, but have more endurance.

while a "water / air" character is fragile, but have more composure.

obviously you can make balanced characters, but thats just showing extremes.

i still have a tiny issue with that, as water is soooo good to heal up both composure and fatigue, that maybe Water shouldn't be in the endurance/composure calculation.

in example, setup #2

endurance: earth/fire

composure: earth/air

focus: water/fire

vigilance: water/air

but that starts to change a lot of rings... while the 1st setup is just 1 switch.

44 minutes ago, JBento said:

The NPCs are ALWAYS going to pick you out if you're the weak spot

My point is that being the weak spot in the social scene is no longer automatically a bushi thing. Or a thing you should really consider unless you specifically went for a socially inept character (this is a very difficult to do btw).

It's very difficult to do someone who's truly inept at anything, seeing as how rings work.

But yeah, I just used Bushi as an example - the point is, if you have a weak spot and are someone of import, then the other people at the scene are going to ferret you out and either rip your throat out (metaphorically, in the case of Intrigues) or use you to rip everyone else's throat out.

Fun trap to pull: if your character isn't well known in the current intrigue yet but is good at them, start by standing aside and presenting yourself as a weak target. When the opposing courtiers move in for the kill, they're now locked in a conversation with a much harder target than they expected (which should throw their side into disarray) and no way of disengaging without forfeiting something (or using Buoyant... whatchamacallit).

17 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

...Composure doesn't suit Air by definition to begin with. So, is this about balance and you want Air to be better? Then I think looking at other options would be better (maybe something that lets you regain Composure rather than letting it increase the derived attribute?) than the above. Is this about Courtiers and Composure? Then nothing says this needs to be addressed via the Air Ring.

Also, let's look at it from another direction: if you're ok with increasing Air for your Courtier character but not necessarily maxing it out every time you get the chance, you immediately free up xp to look at other Rings. That will in turn improve your Composure. If you want to keep pumping up your main Ring, you don't have the luxury of addressing your weaknesses. Personally I think Air is going to be a beast of a Ring in our campaigns though.

I believe the problem is that Composure is seen as a passive trait like Endurance, your ability to press on seemingly unphased by the actions taken against you. As such Earth is seen as the corner stone stat for both. They use an element wheel where every element is with each neighbor once, and never with its opposite. Earth - Fire - Air - Water - Earth is their wheel. If we believe Earth is the primary passive element, and believe Composure is a passive stat similar to Endurance then we put Earth in both, limiting us to Earth + Fire and an Earth + Water for Endurance and Composure.

If we instead define Composure as a more active trait we might naturally get a different result. Rather than your unshakable personality we are measuring, we're considering your active ability to maintain your appearance in spite of what happens. This means it is less about having a stalwart personality, unshakable and true, but rather being aloof and flexible maintaining the facade even though your emotions may be flaring up, or other concerns try to pull your attention away. We all wear masks in this world and composure is how well we maintain that mask, not how resilient we are in staying true to ourselves. This pushes Earth out of Composure and makes it Water + Air. Aloof and Flexible.

While we are defining what these traits are made of, and shifting Air to Composure, we need to define another stat to see where else a change might be warranted. If Air is an aloof, deceptive, active stat - why is it the cornerstone of Vigilance? Vigilance is a passive ability to perceive the actions around you, being resistant against distractions or pretty words. IMO this is the other earth stat. Earth doesn't get distracted by the wind blowing the trees. Meanwhile an active mind - one high in air - is actually quite susceptible to distraction as they are already diverting some of their attention to maintain their own ruse, or their own detachment.

So we have:

Endurance - Earth + Fire

Composure - Water + Air

Focus - Air + Fire

Vigilance - Water + Earth

I'm not 100% sold on this, but I believe this will present characters more in line with their thematic. With this change a Crab or Lion soldier would have a great ability to press on physically, and would spot a trap coming a mile away. Spotting the trap is not everything, and being unable to navigate a social trap will present a struggle. Their lack of composure means they will be honest in their reaction to such wiles, a small matter on the battlefield where the honest swing of a blade, or a re-positioning of troops can be done regardless, but a great concern in court where uttering a single honest word can condemn an entire motive. Likewise a Crane or Scorpion courtier would have a great amount of flexibility to run many intricate plots at once, and can focus on their active goals for the scene. In focusing so much on what they are doing they might lose sight of some trick another has laid before them, however being caught in the trap they may feign resolve and composure as they continue their mechanization adapting to the new information.

16 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Then pick a family that gives +1 Earth or Water. The Loremaster and Merchant schools give +1 Earth as well, the Trader school +1 Water. Do you honestly feel they should get less Air and even more Earth and/or Water? Would that fit a Courtier, to have Air as their 3rd Ring?

Why should I be forced to meta-game a good character when the thematics should support it? The best courtiers in the story aren't crossed with odd families... Its the Doji Diplomat, or the Shosuro Infiltrator you have to be wary of, not the Daidoji Diplomat or the Yogo Infiltrator lol.

3 hours ago, JBento said:

Additionally: I never understood this idea that when YOU go for the enemy's weakspot it's just tactics, but when the GM does it then they're just picking on you.

I understand why you may see this as problematic, giving the players 1 guideline and the GM another - consider that the GM is there to control the entire world, and can make anything happen while the players are bound within their PC charactersheet. It is a challenge presented by the GM which the players must overcome - not the other way around. If I just wanted a character killed I could easily dump them in a spot where that can happen, but it is in presenting them with some solution to this problem I've drawn them into that we get our game play.

This isn't to say a GM shouldn't pick on a characters weak points. Most players enjoy thriving where they are strong, and surviving where they are weak. If a GM doesn't like their player's stat allocation I would advise the GM address this first by drawing the attention of the player to the fact that they have missed these key skills, and let them know the risks of passing them by... I think its good that a GM makes clear to the players what type of stats will be needed for their campaign before they ground a character for lacking them... Then if a player lacks them it is not a mistake or misunderstanding, but a purposeful choice meaning they want the GM to be able to pick on them in this way - and that is fine.

4 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I understand why you may see this as problematic, giving the players 1 guideline and the GM another - consider that the GM is there to control the entire world, and can make anything happen while the players are bound within their PC charactersheet. It is a challenge presented by the GM which the players must overcome - not the other way around.

I'm not saying that the GM should, say, have the Crane and the Lion, who are not, shall we say, overly fond of each other, team up to take down the party (unless you've done enough crap to both of them, in which case I totally want to hear THAT story). I'm saying that the group of Crane courtiers that are trying to get Lord McLord's favour so that the new high-quality iron shipment ends up in Crane artisan hands instead of the party's lord's artisans are totally going to look at the poor sod who's bad at intrigue and they're going to keep needling him until he has an outburst that gets the entire party thrown out of the room. Being AT LEAST passable at both smacking people in the face and talking dissimulated trash about them (or, at least, being resistant to both of those) is a necessity for the L5R Samurai.

12 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I believe the problem is that Composure is seen as a passive trait like Endurance. Your ability to press on seemingly unphased by the actions taken against you, as such Earth is seen as the corner stone stat for both. They use an element wheel where every element is with each neighbor once, and never with its opposite. Earth - Fire - Air - Water - Earth is their wheel. If we believe Earth is the primary passive element, and believe Composure is a passive stat similar to Endurance then we put Earth in both, limiting us to Earth + Fire and an Earth + Water for Endurance and Composure.

If we instead define Composure as a more active trait we might naturally get a different result. Rather than your unshakable personality we are measuring, we're considering your active ability to maintain your appearance in spite of what happens. This means it is less about having a stalwart personality, unshakable and always true, and more about having a flexible and aloof ability to maintain the facade even though your emotions may be flaring up, or other concerns try to pull your attention away. We all wear masks in this world and composure is how well we maintain that mask, not how resilient we are in staying true to ourselves. This pushes Earth out of Composure and makes it Water + Air. Flexibility and being aloof.

While we are defining what these traits are made of, and shifting Air to Composure, we need to define another stat to see where else a change might be warranted. If Air is an aloof, deceptive, active stat - why is it the cornerstone of Vigilance? Vigilance is a passive ability to perceive the actions around you. This means being resistant against distractions or pretty words. IMO this is the other earth stat. Earth doesn't get distracted by the wind blowing the trees. Meanwhile an active mind - one high in air - is actually quite susceptible to distraction as they are already diverting some of their attention to maintain their own ruse, or their own detachment.

So we have:

Endurance - Earth + Fire

Composure - Water + Air

Focus - Air + Fire

Vigilance - Water + Earth

I'm not 100% sold on this, but I believe this will present characters more in line with their thematic. In this line a Crab or Lion soldier who would have a great ability to press on physically, and would spot a trap coming a mile away. Spotting the trap is not everything, and being unable to navigate a social trap they may still struggle to deal with it. Their lack of composure means they will be honest in their reaction to such wiles, a small matter on the battlefield where the honest swing of a blade, or a re-positioning of troops can be done regardless, but a great concern in court where a single uttered word can condemn their entire motive. Likewise a Crane or Scorpion courtier would have a great amount of flexibility to run many intricate plots at once, and can focus on their active goals for the scene. In focusing so much on what they are doing they might lose sight of some trick another has laid before them, however being caught in the trap they may feign resolve and composure as they continue their mechanization adapting to the new information.

Why should I be forced to meta-game a good character when the thematics should support it? The best courtiers in the story aren't crossed with odd families... Its the Doji Diplomat, or the Shosuro Infiltrator you have to be wary of, not the Daidoji Diplomat or the Yogo Infiltrator lol.

I understand why you may see this as problematic, giving the players 1 guideline and the GM another - consider that the GM is there to control the entire world, and can make anything happen while the players are bound within their PC charactersheet. It is a challenge presented by the GM which the players must overcome - not the other way around.

This isn't to say a GM shouldn't pick on a characters weak points. Most enjoy thriving where they are strong, and surviving where they are weak. If a GM doesn't like their player's stat allocation I would advise the GM address this first by drawing the attention of the player to the fact that they have missed these key skills, and let them know the risks of passing them by... I think its good that a GM makes clear to the players what type of stats will be needed for their campaign before they ground a character for lacking them... Then if a player lacks them it is not a mistake or misunderstanding, but a purposeful choice meaning they want the GM to be able to pick on them in this way - and that is fine.

Yup.

And you, have skill with words.