I considered making Predict and Center something you can pay Strife during Staredown to do, so there is still something interesting to the phase even if the Initiative values are too different for it to matter.

1 hour ago, WHW said:

I considered making Predict and Center something you can pay Strife during Staredown to do, so there is still something interesting to the phase even if the Initiative values are too different for it to matter.

Issue with that for me is that I really really don't want to help the guy with the most composure even more than he already is in duels. I find already giving a predict action during staredown is already favoring the player with high composure who acts second, a bit.

Edit; if we could find a way to make vigilance useful in duels, in a simple functionning way, that would be pretty neat though!!!

Mmmm and if i tweak my predict action so that instead of losing "your ring value in strife" or "4 strife, as per core book". What if you lose the opponent's vigilance in strife?

Kinda makes sense since hes using predict on you and now rely on his vigilance to watch your technique etc.

I like. Will adjust my rule for now.

Yeah, the more i polish it the more i like it. It adds a very simple, check free and yet fun way to add mindgames to duels without overly nerfing the opponent who gets predicted but by bypassing some "issues" i had with the stance effects while giving vigilance a bit of a role to play.

im sure it can be even better eventually, but it is getting there, thx to all the discussions with you guys!

Do you think Water is the courtier ring then? Is the problem perhaps that the book gives air to courtiers when their ring is really water?

I think the main problem in my mind is that people think Composure is like Endurance. Like its a resolve to carry on - a fear resist. This is a complete misunderstanding of what "wearing a mask" means. Its not resilience, its deception. We put on a mask, and the mask is a lie. The Scorpion clan even literally wear a mask to symbolize this.

People on the battlefield do NOT care about this, people in the courts do. Its a classic trope in Japanese samurai fantasy... Its practically the plot of Sanjuro... I know I'm preaching to the choir with you but Matsu, Hida, and Moto all wear their mind on their sleeve, yet they get 2 stats thrown into composure without even compromising their aggressive build - meanwhile the Crane and Scorpion get a chance at 1 stat into composure IF they pick the right family...

Thematically it just fails. The classic L5R face off - the Matsu vs Kakita. Kakita get +1 earth from their school, but are otherwise 0's on both water and earth in construction... The Matsu get 3 stats into composure. Thematically the Crane should want to goad the Lion into solving their dispute with a duel. How is he going to do this with how much composure these "hot heads" get? How is the guy who has 1 stat in composure from chargen is supposedly advantaged by luring the Lion into a duel where becoming compromised could mean death... ? Complete thematic failure.

Even if we re-tooled the stat bonuses to give Courtiers water where they may have gained air before, I feel strongly that the thematics just betray the civil vulnerability of a warrior, and the deceptive game antagonists play at court.

For me its probably the biggest issue with the game RAW. I cringe seeing my political characters risk unmasking after 1-2 rolls while the warriors are like "sure, I don't care."

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

Is the problem perhaps that the book gives air to courtiers when their ring is really water? Yes, it is my main issue with it. I've said many times i'm ok with Air ring being the "ninja/scout" ring, I think it makes a great job at it. I just don't understand why the book make Air a courtier ring by giving it to every courtiers when Air is totally not more courtier than all the other rings (depending what type of courtier you are).

I think the main problem in my mind is that people think Composure is like Endurance. Like its a resolve to carry on - a fear resist. This is a complete misunderstanding of what "wearing a mask" means. Its not resilience, its deception. We put on a mask, and the mask is a lie. The Scorpion clan even literally wear a mask to symbolize this. Definitely. The thing is the GAME makes composure an "endurance" thing because it makes big physical family/clan with more composure. At character creations, the cranes, scorpion and courtiers (and some phoenix) are the ones with less composure. I also prefer "composure" as "how much can I keep a straight face when confronted with the realities of rokugani samurai society" but the game makes it more something like "how much can i hold my courage when i see a shadowland creature" and "how much I can go on (kind of fatigue accumulated on each rolls) without unmasking". So yeah, it is extremely difficult to make the current system work as I would like it to work (separate fear/courage/mental resilience from composure).

People on the battlefield do NOT care about this, people in the courts do. Its a classic trope in Japanese samurai fantasy... Its practically the plot of Sanjuro... I know I'm preaching to the choir with you but Matsu, Hida, and Moto all wear their mind on their sleeve, yet they get 2 stats thrown into composure without even compromising their aggressive build - meanwhile the Crane and Scorpion get a chance at 1 stat into composure IF they pick the right family... Agreed. That is my thinking also...

Thematically it just fails. The classic L5R face off - the Matsu vs Kakita. Kakita get +1 earth from their school, but are otherwise 0's on both water and earth in construction... The Matsu get 3 stats into composure. Thematically the Crane should want to goad the Lion into solving their dispute with a duel. How is he going to do this with how much composure these "hot heads" get? How is the guy who has 1 stat in composure from chargen is supposedly advantaged by luring the Lion into a duel where becoming compromised could mean death... ? Complete thematic failure. Agreed.

Even if we re-tooled the stat bonuses to give Courtiers water where they may have gained air before, I feel strongly that the thematics just betray the civil vulnerability of a warrior, and the deceptive game antagonists play at court.

For me its probably the biggest issue with the game RAW. I cringe seeing my political characters risk unmasking after 1-2 rolls while the warriors are like "sure, I don't care." Same for me.

right now, composure is basically "willpower". the problem i have is that there should be 2 kinds of "willpower"; courage and cool (the star wars "cool skill").

warriors have courage.

courtiers have cool.

right now, l5r put both of them in the same basket... there is no easy fix to that. especially since composure is related to strife (which happen in all kinds of situations, and is on the dices).

and honestly, "endurance" is also "the will to carry on" as it represent how you fight beyond fatigue.

so yeah, right now, courtiers, cranes, scorpions etc are not,courageous and not mentally resilient (which is maybe ok) but they also cannot keep their "cool" in a social situation... and that... doesn't sit well with me.

In what way is it willpower? Besides needing to unmask, are you penalized in other ways such as being forced to flee? Is it just too bound up to every roll for it to be un-needed for any character?

36 minutes ago, shosuko said:

In what way is it willpower? Besides needing to unmask, are you penalized in other ways such as being forced to flee? Is it just too bound up to every roll for it to be un-needed for any character?

beside needing to unmask, no, not much of a penalty. (you can also only unmask once per scene).

and yes, being bound up to every roll makes it one of the most important stat in the game IF YOU CARE ABOUT NOT UNMASKING or DUELLING.

if you don't care about unmasking or duelling... composure is not "that" important.

but lets take this into consideration for an instant; the Matsu Family are known to have very high Honor but also, taken from the wiki, all Matsu were hot-tempered, emotional, strong willed and intractable, but also highly courageous, loyal, dedicated and fierce.

how would you represent that in l5r rpg ? high or low composure ?

and then you have the Doji, who also have high Honor, are also highly emotional, epicurean and "living life without regrets". should they have high composure ?

...it just gets very complicated. I feel like the game is missing a "stat" or that composure is not achieving what it should achieve. because composure is maybe a stat both Matsu and Doji should NOT have (and in some ways they are similar in mentality just physical matsu versus mental doji, but otherwise they are both honorable and passionate).

but the game doesn't represent that properly. the game makes it EASIER for high composure character to achieve better honor/glory (less unmasking). so basically, your telling the courtier: "well dude, i'm sorry, but you will not have as high honor/glory because you will need to unmask more" which is NOT FAIR. Why would the big warrior have an EASIER way to achieve that?? (im not saying they should have it harder, but it should at least be equal)

thats where i bug down; you relate UNMASKING to COMPOSURE (umasking removes strife which is your composure "hp") but then you relate UNMASKING to HONOR/GLORY (you lose honor/glory by unmasking)

There is a problem with either unmasking effect, or composure itself, or both... right now you basically say "high Earth and high Water is the way to go to have high honor and glory". <--- boom, the issue.

its not well thought of, but it is hard to fix at this point because it is stuck very deep in their broken ruleset.

maybe the "fix" is to make all secondary stats not relying on "rings".

making a totally new system to calculate the secondary stats.

i'll think about it.

Is it willpower though? The book is pretty explicit that losing composure has nothing to do with losing control of your character. You don't flee battle when you become compromised. You aren't tricked into doing anything. You may find it difficult to function, but that is only because your reserve has run thin... You are still fully emboldened to whatever action you wish to pursue. It also doesn't strictly enforce any glory / honor loss. Every time it mentions glory / honor loss its uses words which indicate possibilities but no certainty.

On page 30 of the book - Unmasking 2nd paragraph - Importantly, the player never loses control of their character while unmasking, because the player chooses the shape the character's unmasking takes and the time at which it occurs.

Also in the Benefits and Risks of Unmasking - Players and GM's can look to the examples of unmasking in this section for inspiration, or invent their own to fit the scene and character.

Continuing on the next page - While such behavior might have a cost in honor or glory...

Honestly - and its a point you've gone on about, so again I'm preaching to the choir - but they needed to do more testing with this game. The ever-present mechanic of Strife cripples anyone without Composure. Do we cripple the Bushi after a brilliant attack? Or do we cripple the Courtier after spreading a sweet sweet rumor? The answer to both should be no, yet one of them must suffer with this system. The Warrior gets a good cushion of Composure to work through though, while the Courtier may literally become compromised from 1 round... and all that I've heard people go on about Vigilance as the saving grace of the air ring, and true power of the courtier? Yeah, your vigilance is a 1 when you're compromised... Its not just "hard mode" its literally a built in Achilles heel. Anyone with good Vigilance is going to have moderate composure at best...

----------

idk I'm really hoping a good homebrew system can flesh this out. I think a major thing to tackle is how unmasking and how strife work. I don't like seeing Warriors unable to notice anything, and I don't like courtiers who are unable to keep their cool for more than 1 round of conversation. Imagine if you had to construct a court scene where players are questioning characters, and debating the semantics of law, and attempting to present their case to a judge. How many courtier characters could make it through that? A few rolls... and they sink... It makes me feel this game doesn't respect the court scene, and I play L5R for the court scene ! If L5R can't give me moments of tension as players unravel their adventures in front of their superiors, mixing clever lies in with the truth, and countering smears against them... then I'm playing the wrong game.

Anyway keep working on what you're doing. I'd still prefer the version where you spread endurance and composure to separate ring pairs.

finalized Duel changes.

according to a few testing, the revised duel system is both fun, fair, about as quick as original system and is simple to use (no need to know too many rules etc).

it improves both the predict and center actions to make them usable and fun, give the battle in the mind kata an interesting mindgame option, and give the vigilance stat a role in duels. all that while avoiding some of the system blocking/lockdown that could happen because of some stances or options under the previous system without downright making players unable to roll their favoured ring.

it also makes the strife mindgame much more prominent and the duels becomes a little less of a strike fest.

i decided to leave "battle in the mind" kata as in original rules because it is stronger now that you can use a predict action for free.

FYI, since this is driving me nuts, "Dices" is not a word. It is 1 Die or 1 Dice (singular) or Multiple Dice (plural).

Just now, Mirith said:

FYI, since this is driving me nuts, "Dices" is not a word. It is 1 Die or 1 Dice (singular) or Multiple Dice (plural).

cool, thx for that and sorry. English is not my first language!

what do you think of the duel revised rules ?

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

cool, thx for that and sorry. English is not my first language!

what do you think of the duel revised rules ?

I figured that was the case.

I don't have much of an opinion since I haven't gotten a chance to play the game yet.

after a few tests with friends, tweaked the duel rules to make the new predict a bit less punishing but more tactical.

as it was, it felt a bit too punishing and that made the whole duel revolve a bit too much around the "predict vs center" mindgame. which they liked, but felt it needed some softening in the consequences.

with the revision, predict/center is still a good way to apply strife pressure OR control the opponent's stance, but not both at the same time.

OK, after lots of analysing, I decided that some school abilities were simply too good to be "once per round".

So, I created another number of uses who falls between the "once per scene" and the "once per round". This is the "2 times per scene".

Sure, it is another resource to keep track of, and that is unfortunate. But I really felt some abilities as once per round were simply too strong and/or brain-dead. By putting a "2 times per scene" clause on a lot of abilities, I am able to make them less infinite BUT still keeping them very strong because basically, 2 times per scene is a lot. Not all the scenes will even last much more than 3-4 rounds.

So this is not as big of a balance change as it seems, but it creates a slighter more tactical choice than just being able to spam the ability. I might revise to 3 times per scene... but so far, 2 times per scene seems to create just the right amount of tactical decision for the usual scene length.

Note that I haven't re-balanced/checked the rank 6 abilities yet so nothing mentions them.

nerfed the mirumoto school ability;

made it unusable with your bare hands (only works if you have 2 melee weapons drawn).

i feel that thematically it should only work with melee weapons anyway since it is a 2 weapons style. you can still use it if you only have one weapon readied (but then that weapon is unusable for attacks) so you can Iai with a second weapon, or water draw, or punch.

plus, it makes it more important to win the initiative in duels and skirmishes since you don't have your crazy good ability unless you have at least one weapon ready.

added some rules to Iaijutsu techniques to reduce abuses and cheesing during skirmishes.

IAIJUTSU TECHNIQUES:

-To perform an iaijutsu technique, both your hands needs to be empty. because you need one hand to hold the scabbard. You can still draw a second weapon (using opportunities, as per the techniques) after the action is fully completed (can't use the second weapon for spinning blade kata in the same action you used for the iaijutsu technique for example)

-You cannot perform a iaijutsu technique if you sheathed a weapon this turn. Though, you can still DROP a weapon and then iaijutsu with another sheathed weapon OR you can sheath a weapon AFTER performing a iaijutsu technique with water stance.

Iaijutsu Cut: Crossing Blade: add: 3 OPP: if you succeed, inflict a critical strike on your target with severity equal to your weapon's deadliness

Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade: add: 2 OPP: if you succeed, inflict a critical strike on your target with severity equal to your weapon's deadliness

Improved the Battle in the Mind kata to make it worth its rank 3 requirement. Now it works with my new predict system.

On your issues with composure being a major hit to Courtier builds, I have a thought. Instead of trying to rewrite everything, do something simple. Maybe just courtiers get to ignore the first strife on any social skill roll. That way they're still a bit wussy on the battlefield, but can hold their own at court.

28 minutes ago, player387247 said:

On your issues with composure being a major hit to Courtier builds, I have a thought. Instead of trying to rewrite everything, do something simple. Maybe just courtiers get to ignore the first strife on any social skill roll. That way they're still a bit wussy on the battlefield, but can hold their own at court.

hey, thx for interest. composure being an issue for Courtier builds (for Air builds basically..) is something I didn't houserule (i reverted my changes). my houserules went thru a lot of iterations at this point 😛

i got convinced by relatively many people that vigilance is good enough of a stat...

also, sure, intrigues have timers etc, but if you skip a turn trying to heal your strife, its not like you're going to get hit by a tetsubo and die. so, it makes it a bit less stressful to skip a turn to reduce your strife.

for duels, I made vigilance a bit more prevalent, so that if you have low composure but high vigilance, at least you can put more strife on the opponent a bit, which helps balancing it out.

it still leave a character with mostly Air/Fire/Void very, VERY vulnerable to strife.... I guess this is a combo to avoid unless you want to play a ninja(shinobi) and be the type of guy who hit and then run.

i do like your fix though. its a bit like the Ronin School but for social rolls only. every character that have a school with "courtier" in it would have that perk ? interesting.

I would imagine the better fix would be to let warriors on the battlefield stop caring about maintaining a composed persona ... Why would a warrior slashing goblins care at all about composure? They're killing things, they're doing what they feel they should be doing. They aren't trying to hide their true emotions behind any civil appearance.

Composure is not willpower, or resistance to fear. I believe this is very clear in the book on page 30. If it was willpower than having too much strife would break a character. If it was a fear resist, then strife overrunning your composure would cause your character to flee. Instead it states

Quote

Importantly, the player never loses control of their character while unmasking...

Also in the description of Strife from the book, pg 29

Quote

Rokugani ideals state that samurai are to maintain proper decorum at all times ... However... they still experience the challengers, joys, frustrations, and sorrows that make up life. These myriad emotions are represented by strife.

What might be a better ruling to fix this is to simply allow a warrior to ignore most strife so long as they are fighting honestly against whom they feel they should fight against. Unless people are watching, or they don't believe in the fight they are involved in, just let them ignore most strife. They aren't needing to wear any mask, so why measure the composure of said mask?

To me this makes sense - a warrior deals with their problems with their sword. When a person who is used to confronting their opposition with a blade must stand back and use only words they should stumble. Forced to be polite to people they could easily kill is a challenge which makes outbursts like honor challenges and rage fitting. These represent the character acting in a way that says "I'm done with this civil game, lets draw swords and see if you'll still be smiling."

33 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I would imagine the better fix would be to let warriors on the battlefield stop caring about maintaining a composed persona ... Why would a warrior slashing goblins care at all about composure? They're killing things.

Composure is not willpower, or resistance to fear. You can see this because nothing about blowing your composure causes you to flee or react in any negative way. The only thing it measures is how well you can maintain a civil facade.

composure being in ALL rolls makes it more than only 1 thing.

but yes, imo, a warrior in a battlefield, under threats from savage beasts or monster, would probably not care that much about keeping a "composed facade".

but then, the whole system seems to prone composure as "willpower". you can use fire to give strife thru intimidation or intensity, invocations like haunting visage or volley of arrows...

my initial question was more "why would a courtier (air ring according to the core book) would have less composure than a warrior?".

in the end, i couldn't find any fix for it, or didn't like any of the fixes i did, so i just accepted it as is. (I still changed Pelting Arrows Kata cause that was real stupid design). but otherwise, yeah, even with my houserules, courtiers have less composure than an Earth dude.

though... it is arguable that Earth is kind of a weaker stance, it is ultra defensive. so with my rules to make it less of a "hard block that makes the gameplay boring" in duels, I feel that now Earth Ring provides "big stats" but not much anything else. so i ended up leaving composure as is. (also to be honest, the LESS I have to change, the better I like it... I still changed a lot so far because of many broken/busted things so at some point i go thru the list and try to remove some of my changes that don't have a lot of impact or that have too much impact to try to keep the game as close as possible to core)

41 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Why  would a warrior slashing goblins care at all about composure? They're killing things, they're doing what they feel they should be doing.

Actually, I can perfectly see a warrior in battle intentionally raking up Strife as a “power up” move to Unmask as soon as they can and become Enraged. Makes them more vulnerable but +2 Deadliness to their attacks and one Void Point the first time they down an opponent? Yes please!

Very fitting that the Fire Stance (the aggressive one) has a strong incentive to keep more Strife too.

22 minutes ago, Franwax said:

Actually, I can perfectly see a warrior in battle intentionally raking up Strife as a “power up” move to Unmask as soon as they can and become Enraged. Makes them more vulnerable but +2 Deadliness to their attacks and one Void Point the first time they down an opponent? Yes please!

Very fitting that the Fire Stance (the aggressive one) has a strong incentive to keep more Strife too.

fair enough.

the question is, why warriors have more composure than courtiers ? (only because all courtier school have Air as an important ring while most warriors have Earth).

i'm cool with warriors using unmask to go ham, but the problem (or is it a problem?) is that it is the courtiers who unmask the most.

Yeah I do not have a clear view on that... maybe Earth shouldn’t be a dump stat for Courtiers as well? After all, a grounded mind is as important as a sharp wit when navigating the treacherous eddies of court

or maybe the answer is to look for on the Water side of the equation. Water is also the ring of charm, adaptability and companionable interaction between people, so it stands to reason that “social” characters should prioritize its development. And once they do, up goes their Composure.

Ultimately, all Samurai should strive to be well rounded (in theory). But on the topic of house rules, I tend to reach the conclusion that this aspect does not necessarily need an overhaul.