8 minutes ago, JBento said:

I'm not saying that the GM should, say, have the Crane and the Lion, who are not, shall we say, overly fond of each other, team up to take down the party (unless you've done enough crap to both of them, in which case I totally want to hear THAT story). I'm saying that the group of Crane courtiers that are trying to get Lord McLord's favour so that the new high-quality iron shipment ends up in Crane artisan hands instead of the party's lord's artisans are totally going to look at the poor sod who's bad at intrigue and they're going to keep needling him until he has an outburst that gets the entire party thrown out of the room. Being AT LEAST passable at both smacking people in the face and talking dissimulated trash about them (or, at least, being resistant to both of those) is a necessity for the L5R Samurai.

Exactly, the earth guy can keep his mouth shut and make the courtiers having a harder time picking on him because he is in earth stance and have a good vigilence.

Fits well enough

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

Exactly, the earth guy can keep his mouth shut and make the courtiers having a harder time picking on him because he is in earth stance.

Fits well enough

Being in Earth stance doesn't really make it harder to own you in Intrigue. If you WANT to be in Earth stance in Intrigues, the way you can actually help is by intelligence gathering, because that's Earth strong suit in that battlefield. If you have good composure, you can also run interference with Stonewall Tactics (I think that's the name), but you DO need to pick up a couple of Shuji. Keeping your mouth shut screws you up if the other side engages you, because in not answering you're just being uncouth, and then Lord McLord is going to talk to you in a display of dominance over the Crane (and there's no way you can not answer HIM), and Crane is going to take that opening to try and play you, and then you need to respond because otherwise you've just been played in front of Lord McLord.

If you think SKIRMISHES are "I use this megatechnique and you need to hard counter it", Intrigues are worse. The only real difference between Skirmishes and Intrigues is that Intrigues need more player skill during the Intrigue than during the build, whereas Skirmishes are mostly the other way around.

12 minutes ago, JBento said:

I'm saying that the group of Crane courtiers that are trying to get Lord McLord's favour so that the new high-quality iron shipment ends up in Crane artisan hands instead of the party's lord's artisans are totally going to look at the poor sod who's bad at intrigue and they're going to keep needling him until he has an outburst that gets the entire party thrown out of the room.

To be honest those Crane should look for the guy with the lowest Composure and not the guy with the worst Intrigue kit. I mean, if they want to poke the Composure 16 Hida Defender who sits in Earth Stance and only goes Water to null his Strife in one turn, then they are truly and honestly welcome to try. It doesn't even matter that all the Defender has is a meager Command 1 to poke back - time is on his side, and while the Cranes are sweating blood to put a ***** on his face, the party courtier can aim for the lord, have a tea with him, talk with him about the iron over a slow-burning game of go, arrange a cute geisha for him, wait until he returns from said geisha, finish up with the deal, go back to the court, have dinner, write a letter to the family, have a hot bath, then tell the Hida to stop messing around and leave those poor Crane sods alone.

3 minutes ago, JBento said:

Being in Earth stance doesn't really make it harder to own you in Intrigue. If you WANT to be in Earth stance in Intrigues, the way you can actually help is by intelligence gathering, because that's Earth strong suit in that battlefield. If you have good composure, you can also run interference with Stonewall Tactics (I think that's the name), but you DO need to pick up a couple of Shuji. Keeping your mouth shut screws you up if the other side engages you, because in not answering you're just being uncouth, and then Lord McLord is going to talk to you in a display of dominance over the Crane (and there's no way you can not answer HIM), and Crane is going to take that opening to try and play you, and then you need to respond because otherwise you've just been played in front of Lord McLord.

If you think SKIRMISHES are "I use this megatechnique and you need to hard counter it", Intrigues are worse. The only real difference between Skirmishes and Intrigues is that Intrigues need more player skill during the Intrigue than during the build, whereas Skirmishes are mostly the other way around.

I see composure as the intrigue endurence.

In battle, endurance is "kinda like your hp".

In intrigues, composure should be "kinda like your hp".

Im cool with what you say, but the big mechanical debate for me here is;

Air should have composure.

9 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

To be honest those Crane should look for the guy with the lowest Composure and not the guy with the worst Intrigue kit. I mean, if they want to poke the Composure 16 Hida Defender who sits in Earth Stance and only goes Water to null his Strife in one turn, then they are truly and honestly welcome to try. It doesn't even matter that all the Defender has is a meager Command 1 to poke back - time is on his side, and while the Cranes are sweating blood to put a ***** on his face, the party courtier can aim for the lord, have a tea with him, talk with him about the iron over a slow-burning game of go, arrange a cute geisha for him, wait until he returns from said geisha, finish up with the deal, go back to the court, have dinner, write a letter to the family, have a hot bath, then tell the Hida to stop messing around and leave those poor Crane sods alone.

If the Hida's vigilance is in the dumps, the entire room is now much more likely to believe the party has sex with butchers. They can also pump him for information about the party. They can also put OTHER people into the conversation with the Hida, and avalanche from there.

But this brings up another point: if the Hida is as resistant as you say (and I'm not saying they aren't), they'd do well to pick up Stonewall Tactics and FORCE the Courtiers to go after him.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

I see composure as the intrigue endurence.

In battle, endurance is "kinda like your hp".

In intrigues, composure should be "kinda like your hp".

Im cool with what you say, but the big mechanical debate for me here is;

Air should have composure.

Maybe - that's not a debate that I'm going to weigh in on, other to say than the way stats are calculated DID result in weird stats for my toon.

Just now, JBento said:

If the Hida's vigilance is in the dumps, the entire room is now much more likely to believe the party has sex with butchers. They can also pump him for information about the party. They can also put OTHER people into the conversation with the Hida, and avalanche from there.

By then the courtier already lost his composure and is about to unmask.

1 minute ago, JBento said:

Maybe - that's not a debate that I'm going to weigh in on, other to say than the way stats are calculated DID result in weird stats for my toon.

Then what exactly are we arguing about ??

Whos the easiest target to pick on in court?

The Fire guy.

Then the Air guy.

Then the Earth and/or Water guy. I think.

Just now, Avatar111 said:

By then the courtier already lost his composure and is about to unmask.

But they haven't, because the Hida can't do squat to them.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

Then what exactly are we arguing about ??

We went on a tangent some posts up on whether you can or not entirely dump on one side of the game's fight with swords/words dual nature.

Just now, JBento said:

But they haven't, because the Hida can't do squat to them.

Its the hida's crane buddy packed with air and fire that is attacking the right target while the npc seems to be uselessly targeting the hida. The hida is there, basically chilling, and using opprtunity to heal the strife of his crane buddy.

They picked the wrong target.

Point made!

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

Its the hida's crane buddy packed with air and fire that is attacking the right target while the npc seems to be uselessly targeting the hida. The hida is there, basically chilling, and using opprtunity to heal the strife of his crane buddy.

They picked the wrong target.

Point made!

Or the Hida can pick up Stonewall Tactics and FORCE people to go after them.

11 minutes ago, JBento said:

Or the Hida can pick up Stonewall Tactics and FORCE people to go after them.

he can stonewall tactic on top of civility foremost.

does he need composure on top of that ? poor air guy whos there trying to spread rumors that have no mechanical repercussion... hes going to lose his face.

anyway, i'll try with the ring switching and see how it goes. sure, the earth guy might be more forced to use his techniques to turtle up instead of deciding to use fire to attack and rely on his high composure to handle the heat himself.

but thats fine. Air guy should be throwing attacks and relying on his composure alone to help him survive a few rounds.

same as on a battle field, you should be able to attack and hope that your endurance carries you a bit. if you want to go head on.

4 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

he can stonewall tactic on top of civility foremost.

does he need composure on top of that ? poor air guy whos there trying to spread rumors that have no mechanical repercussion...

Ok, but he DOES need to pick up the Shuji, which was my point.

(sidenote: for full effect, he should ALSO pick up Buoyant Arrival later on. Let the main hitter get near Unmasking, Stonewall Tactic in the way, take the hits, and then Buoyant Arrival away when they're close to Unmasking)

Uh, they most certainly have mechanical repercussions, namely that if the Lord believes you have sex with butchers you won't be able to talk to him, let alone convince him to deal with you. Unless "winning the intrigue" doesn't count as a mechanical repercussion to you. And you better pray YOUR Lord doesn't believe those rumours, or its seppuku for you.

9 minutes ago, JBento said:

Ok, but he DOES need to pick up the Shuji, which was my point.

(sidenote: for full effect, he should ALSO pick up Buoyant Arrival later on. Let the main hitter get near Unmasking, Stonewall Tactic in the way, take the hits, and then Buoyant Arrival away when they're close to Unmasking)

Uh, they most certainly have mechanical repercussions, namely that if the Lord believes you have sex with butchers you won't be able to talk to him, let alone convince him to deal with you. Unless "winning the intrigue" doesn't count as a mechanical repercussion to you. And you better pray YOUR Lord doesn't believe those rumours, or its seppuku for you.

fair enough.

still cannot digest that courtiers have starting low composure though. maybe i put too much importance on composure.

maybe i simply dislike that air doesnt give endurane/composure and think each of the 4 rings aside void should be either composure or endurence

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

fair enough.

still cannot digest that courtiers have starting low composure though. maybe i put too much importance on composure.

maybe i simply dislike that air doesnt give endurane/composure and think each of the 4 rings aside void should be either composure or endurence

I agree it's weird. If composure is "how much psychological pressure you can take", courtiers' should be higher, unless courtiers start/have quick access to Shuji that let them dump Strife or become harder to give strife to. Unfortunately, I am AFB until Friday, so I can't check. 8(

17 minutes ago, JBento said:

If the Hida's vigilance is in the dumps

It can't be because of his high Water Ring (an important combat attribute). This in turn can result in the Hida making the Crane flock into his personal harem via extensive use of Charm... ah, the twists and turns of court !

Tho, the Hida - or anyone with high Water really - will not be seen as socially weak because he will get a new friend with each downtime activity, so he is very much a social bee queen under all that dirt and oni blood. What gives...

3 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It can't be because of his high Water Ring (an important combat attribute). This in turn can result in the Hida making the Crane flock into his personal harem via extensive use of Charm... ah, the twists and turns of court !

Tho, the Hida - or anyone with high Water really - will not be seen as socially weak because he will get a new friend with each downtime activity, so he is very much a social bee queen under all that dirt and oni blood. What gives...

nothing will 100% always make sense.

all rings can be socially strong!

my issue is really with air ring not giving endurance nor composure. but then again, maybe i do put too much value on those attributes

10 minutes ago, JBento said:

I agree it's weird. If composure is "how much psychological pressure you can take", courtiers' should be higher, unless courtiers start/have quick access to Shuji that let them dump Strife or become harder to give strife to. Unfortunately, I am AFB until Friday, so I can't check. 8(

earth have the shuji to make you dump strife. and void.

8 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It can't be because of his high Water Ring (an important combat attribute). This in turn can result in the Hida making the Crane flock into his personal harem via extensive use of Charm... ah, the twists and turns of court !

Tho, the Hida - or anyone with high Water really - will not be seen as socially weak because he will get a new friend with each downtime activity, so he is very much a social bee queen under all that dirt and oni blood. What gives...

The Crane probably has 5 Vigilance (because Water is at least good at everything, except possibly invocations which I can't recall) so the Hida isn't getting anything done to them.

Please, the Hida isn't making any important friends seeing as he, as we've established, has sex with butchers. I heard once he even *gasps* shook hands with an undertaker! *swoons, clutches pearls, fetches fainting couch*

7 minutes ago, JBento said:

The Crane probably has 5 Vigilance (because Water is at least good at everything, except possibly invocations which I can't recall) so the Hida isn't getting anything done to them.

Please, the Hida isn't making any important friends seeing as he, as we've established, has sex with butchers. I heard once he even *gasps* shook hands with an undertaker! *swoons, clutches pearls, fetches fainting couch*

you lost 2 strife doing that,

poor little scorpion with 6 composure and no way to heal it is feeling the heat!

your vigilance wont help you when i make a little dance and use opps to strife you out, even if i fail my dance.

2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

you lost 2 strife doing that,

poor little scorpion with 6 composure and no way to heal it is feeling the heat!

Ew, no, Scorpion is the ONE clan I won't play.

3 minutes ago, JBento said:

Ew, no, Scorpion is the ONE clan I won't play.

i just want to give everybody a fighting chance. i feel endurance and composure are both too important for a ring not to be included in the calculation of either.

we can always find counter argument as to why what ring doesn't make sense with that stat. sure thing.

but this is the closest i am right now for my liking;

endurance: earth/fire

composure: water/air

focus: fire/air

vigilance: earth/water

i really feel bad for the guy playing the Air main, whos got by default the lowest points in endurance/composure because his highest ring is Air.

thats just not cool! ?

Oh, before I forget, and because I don't want to deceive anyone (in any way they can find out about it):

You should never actually SAY someone has sex with butchers. That would be rude. What you say is:
"Ah, honourable Samurai-san, so good to see you. If this one might be so bold as to request a favour, I require some adequate feeding for my prized hunting hounds. If you would be so kind as to request the butcher to send his choicest cuts to my kennels next time you... rendez-vous, I would appreciate it."

And then Buoyant Arrival as soon as you can, if not sooner.

(don't forget the pause before rendez-vous, it's super important, because it makes everyone think of what the Jigoku you were going to say that makes rendez-vous'ing with a butcher the SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE choice of words)

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

I see composure as the intrigue endurence.

In battle, endurance is "kinda like your hp".

In intrigues, composure should be "kinda like your hp".

Im cool with what you say, but the big mechanical debate for me here is;

Air should have composure.

During play? It isn't. Unmasking can be good for your side, if you do it right. The honor/glory hit can be leveraged against you, but only if the other side have the actual skills to do it and high composure characters are actually VERY ill equipped to capitalize on breaks of etiquette that comes from unmasking.

If your endurance zeroes in an skirmish, you lose. If your composure zeroes in a intrigue you can actually make it one godly of a lemonade if you play it right (scorpion courtiers are very good at this).

Also, if Air had composure, it would be the best ring hands down, no contest. In intrigues it is already the best ring (tied with Void) and it also has the best Invocations. Air is only not that hot on downtime (but Void is simply TOO good on downtime) and Trade, and a "ranged character gimmick" ring for Martial.