Given any of You, Runewars Daqan grognards decides to not use one or two 3*1 crossbowmen, but rather make them super resilient and durable 3*2 block, what upgrades would you add?

Forged in battle, dispatch runner or Zachareth?

Especially with ability: cct? coiled stance? Precise +1?

I ran a 6 tray last weekend with Zach and was underwhelmed. Did CCT, and fire rune, (fire rune is a shooting attack so the barron can add a die to that as well).

Even with 2 shots a turn, and adding 2 dice, I just didn't get that much damage out put for the cost.

Next time, I'm going to try Forged in Battle, Coiled Stance and Visored Helm.

Plan would be to Rally and 1 forward, to get an inspiration or two, then start shooting until I get hit, and then start fighting. Protect 2 and Defense 2 (visored helm) is solid.

I don’t think I’ve seen anything but the 3x1 since the first week they were out.

@xelveki Seems to have had success (or at least a lot of fun!) running a 3x2 Heavy Crossbowmen with Forged in Battle and Wind Rune. He discusses it a little bit on this week's episode of The Runecasters, which should be available for download tomorrow.

what I was thinking was exactly zach, fire rune, coiled stance (so to use lethal 1 2 times) and as a wingman - 6tray spearmen with wizard so fire rune is stronger and to flank zach's aggresors, 1 rune golem to take all the stuns, 2*1 outland scouts with piercing strike for battlefield control and some cavalry as "extended wing".

mathematically it should work given zach has enough space to shoot at least 2 full times (magic plus xbows)

Thats 78 points for the main unit.

For 64 points, you can take two units of 3, with know you enemy and tempered steel. Rally turn 1 for inpiration, and move up.

Its better damage output, and doesnt need a 17 point golem or a wizard.

If cct that s also triumphant cry so 81. But it can rotate and fire two dice for average nine in 3 in. It can shoot with 3 dice white included and then 2 dice with white. It can melee fight init 4 with R-W dice then shoot RW again . All you have to do is protect it from deathstars headlong charges. That is Why you have scout s and spearmen with c. Rune

these folks definitely are not self-sufficient and depend heavily on flank screen and probably some small blocker in front, but their damage output and flexibility are outstanding - average nine/bonus action + normal attack with one additional dice. just bonus can take say 2 trays of normal infantry or 3 DK's.

15 hours ago, Darth Matthew said:

Thats 78 points for the main unit.

For 64 points, you can take two units of 3, with know you enemy and tempered steel. Rally turn 1 for inpiration, and move up.

Its better damage output, and doesnt need a 17 point golem or a wizard.

Know your Enemy is Melee only, swap for Rank Discipline

Has anyone tried 3*2 with Zachareth and fire rune yet?

Our Daqan players haven’t tried anything but solo BaronZ yet.

Though recent suggestions have made me reevaluate ky opinion on 3x2 archer blocks

20 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Our Daqan players haven’t tried anything but solo BaronZ yet.

Though recent suggestions have made me reevaluate ky opinion on 3x2 archer blocks

Which recent suggestions?

I think that fire rune shot with white/red and two rerolls should work fine, giving usually 9-13 damage as ADDITION to normal shot/melee/move. Multiply it by 4-5 turns and you get mobile flamethrower turret.

Also melee at initiative 4 with two dice -white red and two rerolls with this firerune makes it terrible against deathstars - small units around it are just to give some time and breathing space

4 hours ago, Skaflok said:

Has anyone tried 3*2 with Zachareth and fire rune yet?

Gave it a go once. It's going to be an inconsistent unit - with average dice, there's virtually no way to get enough value, but the spike potential is huge. For me, it worked fine - I tried greedy Rank Discipline over Close Quarters Targeting, so when my blockers went down it was doubly bad - no ranged attacks AND no one to stun with Betrayer. Pretty sure it's a bad build, but neat to keep your opponent on their toes.

15 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Gave it a go once. It's going to be an inconsistent unit - with average dice, there's virtually no way to get enough value, but the spike potential is huge. For me, it worked fine - I tried greedy Rank Discipline over Close Quarters Targeting, so when my blockers went down it was doubly bad - no ranged attacks AND no one to stun with Betrayer. Pretty sure it's a bad build, but neat to keep your opponent on their toes.

I am greedy too. But with average dice, you take usually two trays of opponent on your lata activation and then - depending on situation - begin turn with early rotate or melee or shot with this additional two more trays takedown. I think that key here are worthy blokers: so 3 cavalries 2*1 to take this juicy flank if your opponent overcommits or at list tie down their counterparts, maybe replace one with scouts (early bloker) or bloker with benefits (spearmen 2*1 with corruption rune).

big unit would be infantry with fire or corruption rune, wizard, metered march and/or cornicen - all those thing to buy time, as roadblocks with potential

also, according to new FAQ (at least I foun it there) cct enables you to fire outside of melee as long as you have line of sight.

triumphant cry might be well used music slot with this already expensive unit

Tested it against a very decent Waiquar army described by Warlordus in battle reports - Polish tournament (1st place). Those guys shot at everything enemy had at least once, obliterating maro, destroying 2*1death knights, decimating 3 trays af Reanimate Archers and 2 of Reanimates, mainly contributing to total wipeout

2 hours ago, Skaflok said:

Tested it against a very decent Waiquar army described by Warlordus in battle reports - Polish tournament (1st place). Those guys shot at everything enemy had at least once, obliterating maro, destroying 2*1death knights, decimating 3 trays af Reanimate Archers and 2 of Reanimates, mainly contributing to total wipeout

Decent Waiquar lists don't have Maro.

4 hours ago, Darth Matthew said:

Decent Waiquar lists don't have Maro.

I disagree Just as much as people who lost to this list in May during Polish tournament

I like that list. Lots of flexibility there. You're right that you could probably tweak the blockers a bit for efficiency.

On 11/16/2018 at 9:40 PM, Vergilius said:

I like that list. Lots of flexibility there. You're right that you could probably tweak the blockers a bit for efficiency.

actually I was surprised with spearmen 2*1 with corruption rune and metered march - thought they seem they would suck for 24 points, but they turned to be extremely flexible and versatile. They killed two trays of RArchers (tying them down from flank), escaped from Death Knight charge (outmaneuvering them with surprising 4+ action movement). Also golem who shrugged of tons of stuns easily helped a lot, dragging attention of RAchers for a turn and surviving till the end of the game.

scouts drew attention of Reanimate deathstar tying them for a round and killing deathcaller and a full tray, which helped my 3*2 spearmen with a powerful flank attack. Early attack and corruption rune of 3*2 spearblock can really turn the tide (180 points win, wipeout, 80 points from flank attacks)

I will try this army a few times before I move to more dangerous and less technical 3 2*1 cav blockers

On 11/16/2018 at 4:46 PM, Darth Matthew said:

Decent Waiquar lists don't have Maro.

I also think that late move/turn with fire rune and then init 3 fire rune might be a good answer to Vorunthul

Another check against Latari army.

move and turn and fire rune 1st round + rotate and fire rune 2nd turn obliterate most 4tray units in range. (this time it was 37point leonx rider squad.

round 3 shot at 6 tray archers destroyed 3 trays . baron was decimated by aliana's flank charge at round 5 (two hits with accuracy).

This list has huge potential, but is very demanding to play correctly. had some issues with rotate in proximity of terrain.

Malcorne's bequest or other ways of mana manipulation by opponent can be cruel.

Will keep on experimenting with this one.

Definitely keelp experimenting. The advantage is one concentrated activation that can pile on the damage.

Rune manilulation would be really interesting because you have your own. I will have to run the numbers, but I would expect it would bring it really clode to the two average red that are naturally produced, but with lopsided skew based on who has initiative. Which might mean that the lucky rune rolls over three critical turns decide the game.

Having played fire rune before with elves and also looking at it on Uthuk, the I7 and 8 moves are one of the biggest keys for them, Because you catch much more of the field in an end of round fire rune. That's the one thing that puts me off on crossbows, and the part I wonder about in a fire rune shootout. Play has to be correct both ways or it will probsbly be a blow-out.

crossbowmen in one natural shot (WRR) shot entire rank of 3*2 elves. had I not moved to eagerly earlier and if I tied Aliana for one more round things would be much brighter for me.

I think this army is both skill and luck based, and I know now that 2*1 spears with corruption need metered march much more than souts need coiled stance (as it can make them last one-two turns longer with 8init corruption. golem is absolutely stunning as stun absorber and flank roadblock with benefits.

5 hours ago, Vergilius said:

Definitely keelp experimenting. The advantage is one concentrated activation that can pile on the damage.

I will. Worst thing I did was giving first player two my oponent which made me vulnerable at 1 deep deployment.

Earlier, @Skaflok posed the question of how rune manipulation would affect this build, specifically Latari. I was extremely curious about this because I play Latari and have been extremely interested in a Green/Blue reroll strategy.

Setting up the analysis:

Latari has to use Malcorne's on a hero. This is slightly better than Daqan's because it allows you to see the result of the first roll before deciding whether to exhaust for the second roll. The complicating factor, as I posed earlier, is that because the rune throw occurs at the end of the round and the first player resolves his effects first, the advantage is to the player throwing second. So that gives us two sets of results:

unmodified outcomes:

0 red: 25%

2 red: 50%

4 red: 25%

Daqan throwing first, then Latari modifying:

Red 0: 48.44%

Red 2: 37.5%

Red 4: 14.06%

Average red: 1.31

Latari throwing first, then Daqan modifying:

Red 0: 17.2%

Red 2: 46.9%

Red 4: 35.95%

Average red: 2.376

Average red for the game: 1.843

All of that assumes simply rolling against red, and for which the Latari player might have other things that they'd like to spend the second roll on.

I'll leave implications and conclusions for everyone else to draw.

To Vergilius: thank you for this analysis. That helps to understand why Malcorne is essential in most latari builds, even if it weakens Aliana.

Without it, I would have been much better of. Mana shenanigans are important for Zachareth builds.