1 hour ago, MockingBird ME said:

Twice now something like this has been said in this thread, if you want to continue the conversation on that please do it in the Ten Numb or Does All Include Zero threads.

Here's another nit to go pick at. It was in reference to a specific point, in a specific post. Not a draw for a different discussion. If you want to draw people there, go post links elsewhere.

You are just picking a small paragraph, about a GENERAL statement and moaning.

18 hours ago, Cassan said:

@meffo you are obviously not interested in discussing the ops rules question here.

can you please stop harassing me?

harassing you? by criticizing your argument? i'm calling you out on points that you're trying to make that does not make sense. i still respect a lot of the points you have made in this thread.

as for not discussing the ops rules question, i'm on page one of this thread.

i didn't mean to make you feel bad - and i apologize if that's the case. sorry, sir.

necroing this thread because i love it.

any new conclusions? anything added by the tie/sf mechanics? i mean, clearly tie/sfs can't trigger outmaneuver with missiles. they have to treat missiles like (turret arc) attacks rather than (forward arc) attacks.

i also believe i've changed my mind on this. it's not just RAW this should work, i think this definitely works.

to my knowledge, there is nothing stopping an attack to have more attributes than i care to count. i mean, if a tie/sf can perform a special (ordnance) (turret arc) attack, why shouldn't krassis be able to perform a special (ordnance) (front arc) (back arc) attack?

6 hours ago, meffo said:

i also  believe i've changed my mind on this. it's not just RAW this should work, i think this definitely works.

to my knowledge, there is nothing stopping an attack to have more attributes than i care to count. i mean, if a tie/sf can perform a special (ordnance) (turret arc) attack, why shouldn't krassis be able to perform a special (ordnance) (front arc) (back arc) attack?

I agree. In light of the SF + missile consensus and the wording on Krassis, "you can perform [front arc] attacks from your [rear arc]." It's clear that you're not changing a front arc to a rear arc instead or treating a front arc weapon as a rear. You're using your rear arc to perform a front arc attack.

It is possible to add additional weapon or are types to an attack, even if logically they would appear to conflict with each other.

To be clear Outmaneuver out the back only works for Krassis when using special weapons as that's what is affected by his ability. His rear arc primary is still just a rear arc.

I agree: W Workswith Kassix , not with SF.

To leave It as simple as possible:

As the Game and rules consider as different...

"Perform a V attack"

And "Perform an attack from your V / against a ship in your V"

... Kassix special V weapons( from behind, ) trigger OM

Just RAW

(In the same way that turrets aiming front won't trigger It, Or kavil triggers with turrets aiming front, as both skills check the attack(weapon) icon, not the place they're aimed towards)

Necro'ing this thread again in the hopes that @OfficialRules takes a look and decides to chime in.

Another necro.

What is consensus? I don't have time to go via whole thread, but is seems Outmaneuver + Front arc special weapon works with Krassis.

Summon @OfficialRules

1 hour ago, Oldpara said:

Another necro.

What is consensus? I don't have time to go via whole thread, but is seems Outmaneuver + Front arc special weapon works with Krassis.

Summon @OfficialRules

There's never going to be a consensus because both sides have at least reasonable-seeming positions, one RAW-focussed, one RAI-focussed. We're not going to have a consensus, we need a ruling.

I hereby cast my vote becuz I didn’t see the thread last time:

All in favor of it working, say “AYE” all opposed, “NAY”.

Me: AYE

I'll add my contribution to try and bring the thread to the @OfficialRules brainboxes' attention as well. As it stands, with everything that's come before (TL; DR), but also having had a discussion about this some time ago in another thread, I would play this way:

Krassis Trellix can make special attacks out his front and back arcs, as long as the attack specifies that it is a attack. That means that torpedoes, missiles, and cannons that use the symbol are all fair game. I would not try to trigger Outmaneuver using Trellix's back arc, since I try to minimize rules complications, and, as written, I understand that Trellix must be making a attack while using his front arc in order to trigger Outmaneuver. I think the other way is possible, I simply wouldn't do it. So I would assume that it works, but it's not necessarily intended to work in the way that people are arguing about.

4 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I hereby cast my vote becuz I didn’t see the thread last time:

All in favor of it working, say “AYE” all opposed, “NAY”.

Me: AYE

Aye

Fwiw I think it should work but I think FFG will say otherwise.

8 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I hereby cast my vote becuz I didn’t see the thread last time:

All in favor of it working, say “AYE” all opposed, “NAY”.

Me: AYE

Aye

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Fwiw I think it should work but I think FFG will say otherwise.

I'm not sure which is worse:

- 'cuz we say so rulings with little to no explanation, or

- 'cuz we say so rulings that come with an explanation directly countering existing rules and written precedent

... I never thought I would miss hard errata so much

The way Outmaneuver is worded, it's referring to a front arc *weapon* attack, not a ship in your front arc. Krassis allows you to perform a front arc special *weapon* attack out your rear arc. A front arc *weapon* is still a front arc weapon even if it's fired out the rear. Therefore Outmaneuver works on Krassis. Note that this does not and cannot work with a turret weapon since a turret weapon is not a front arc weapon, even when it is fired out your front arc.

The key here is the difference between arc when used as a weapon restriction, and one where arc is used as a positional restriction. Outmaneuver is worded as a weapon restriction. Unless FFG makes an official ruling that this specific interaction goes against the rules as written we have to assume that it works.

https://xwing-miniatures-second-edition.fandom.com/wiki/Arc#Notes

I think it all comes down to what Outmaneuver explicitly means. Does it trigger:

1. When attacking an enemy inside your FRONT FIRING ARC , or...
2. When using a FRONT ARC WEAPON , or...
3. When attacking an enemy inside your FRONT FIRING ARC , while using a FRONT ARC WEAPON ?

We know it's not number one, because of the rulings for Dengar (turret weapon) and the Auzituck (full-arc weapon). Their attacks cannot trigger Outmaneuver, because, as described, they are not FRONT ARC WEAPON attacks.

That leaves 2 and 3 as viable options. I favor the interpretation of #2, since Outmaneuver makes no direct reference to the location of the enemy ship (actually, it refers to the attacking ship's position in relation to the defender !).

@ emeraldbeacon you are correct, I believe it is number 2 because there is no precedent for number 3.

IT'S BAAA-AACK!!!!!!!

Before we all disappear.....

Was there every any conclusions to this issue?

i say outmaneuever triggers with Krassis using a special attack out his back arc, what say others?

2 hours ago, player655164 said:

Before we all disappear.....

Was there every any conclusions to this issue?

i say outmaneuever triggers with Krassis using a special attack out his back arc, what say others?

just read the thread, why don't you?

i'm still in the camp that it works, at least that's my RAW interpretation.