Atheosis said:

warpdancer said:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lysander

www.lexicanum.de the german one is more detailled in this case

warpdancer said:

Went and checked my codex. You're right. Kudos. His age would probably be closer to 600.

Up until recently it was, in fact, a Salamander who was the oldest SM. He was at least 10,000 years old.

Also for a full on break down of a SM's abilities check out this . I think that FFG should include all of the fluff. It's up to the GMs as to what is allowed in their games anyway.

Atheosis said:

Well, I never said that the BA have learning disabilities. But I also never said that all SM were equal or identical. Let's face it, SM just like humans are individuals, they have different learning abilities and talents. Then you also have to accept that every chapter has a certain role, a raison d'être. Some chapters are made out of boneheads who are like a living wall and some are made out of great tacticians.

Look at it this way:

Let's say that the BA I mentioned earlier is a great guy when you face orks, he fought them in a cleansing that went on and on for around 60 years. He made his bones and he's reliable, but he's no Tycho.

The Ultramarine on the other hand, he's a survivor, his squad got wiped out by 'nids. He got his promotion for some above and beyond action in that campaign. He has the qualities needed for command.

Both characters have probably the same amount of experience, the BA from the repetitive fighting against orks and the Ultra from his near death at the claws of tyranids. The only difference is their age. What you describe is nothing more than a flaw in encounter-based experience, the characters get XP not from learning new things but simply because they survived (and survival against foes you know inside out doesn't teach you anything new).

I know how vast the eye is, I also know a bit about the chaos forces inside. But those few marines aren't the only ones that guard the eye. Besides them you have the Imperial Guard with billions if not trillions soldiers, the Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii, the Collegia Titanica, the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus and others. Assuming constant deployment of at least two companies per chapter would lead to an attrition rate that would destroy each chapter within a few years. You can't grow SM in tubes.

Besides, why do you have such a large problem with the age expectancy of single chapter? It's not like anything depends on it.

Arag said:

The essence of my issue with it is that it just doesn't make much sense to me. To state that a certain Chapter is longer lived implies that Space Marines regularly die of old age. If we look at the warrior cultures of history which is the closest thing we have to Space Marine existence such a thing was rather rare, and that was with people who only had 20-40 years of fighting before aging caught up to them. Now if we consider that the facts seem to point out that all Astartes live for many centuries, that they are going to be deployed in combat a significant amount of the time (not necessarily constantly, but pretty often), and that they're only generally going to be deployed against the deadliest of foes, then it becomes really hard to imagine very many Marines living long enough for the difference between Chapter longevity to mean anything.

I don't particularly have a problem with saying that Blood Angels have the potential to live longer than other marines (as Dante's age seems to indicate, though it could also mean he's just really lucky). I just think it's utterly stupid to act like it's a common occurrence. 99% of Marines are going to die well before their 500th birthday, so it doesn't make a lot of difference if some can live two thousand years and others only a thousand (or whatever).

You see my point?

Atheosis said:

I do see your point. But I think that Deathwatch will allow us to play that 1% of all SM. You know the guys with actual names like Shrike, Hestan or Kantor and not unnamed grunts. Guys with insane kill ratios, who can wade into battle and return unscathed. Because it's more fun to play sergeant Ulfgar the Fury of Argra Hive than the space wolf sergeant with a lightning claw. And when playing exceptional characters the question of age might pop-up on the sidelines, simply because they are not the run-of-the-mill.

Theofonias said:

If one was to count Dreadnoughts, then Bjorn the Fell-handed of the Space Wolves is technically the oldest; having fought beside Russ during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy.

-=Brother Praetus=-

You know, that "lives longer" thing doesn't necessary implies the SM can die of old age, another possibility is just that the Blood Angels are harder to kill (thus losing less people... unless for that homicidic rage they fall into only two space marines managed to control, that I know of). After all, with the "sucessor chapters" from the 2nd foundation, shouldn't the "children" chapters of the BA share their potential longevity (saving situations like the Salamanders, who live in a planet with lots of radiation and techtonic activity, for example)?

Brother Praetus said:

Bjorn and this guy would have been around the same age. Though the Salamander in question was not in a Dreadnought.

Argus Van Het said:

That actually seems even sillier to me. There's no reason the Blood Angels would be harder to kill. In fact, their aggressive tactics, and tendency to go raving mad, likely mean they have a higher casualty rate than more conservative Chapters.

Atheosis said:

The blood angels have had ridiculous attrition rates. They lost 90% of their entire chapter during the space hulk incident, a hundred or more in another listed in the latest codex.

Howver the blood angels have afaik the single fastest recruitment process of any astartes. All the organs are implanted in stages in a marine between 10 and 18 years of age. They are never put in all at once. The blood angels however stick their primarch's blood into an aspirant and put them in a sarcophagus for a year after which time they have fully turned into a space marine and are now gorgeous (considering they are all without exception irradiated and malnourished extras from a Mad Max movie that's saying a lot).

A one year turn around is one eighth the normal time it takes for others to become space marines. They have the capacity to replace their losses at a phenomenal rate.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

So when during that time do they receive training and hypno-indoctrination? It takes a lot more than the implants to make a Marine.

Anyway, that's kind of beside the point as it doesn't change the fact that almost none of them are going to, between combat losses and the Black Rage, reach the ancient ages that are being put forward as so common.

By the way, am I the only one who finds the Blood Angels to have the silliest and most over-the-top lore? I'm starting to realize I really dislike them as a Chapter (guess I had to have someone to dislike now that my hatred for the Ultras has become mere indifference).

Mmmm by the way, I think we are forgetting the rejuvenation treatments. I'm currently reading the novel Ravenor, and the captain of the space ship he uses has more than 280 years, but look only about thirties (and with some motherly curves, it seems). If a normal human with some treatments can reach that age (which allos me to estimate about 400-500 without being too dificult), a Space Marine who doesn't get killed, maimed or crippled should be able to reach 700-800 without problem regardless of his chpater.

You know, maybe the fact that the BA have some of the oldest characters is precisely their attrition rate... The ones who survive the first centuries are so awesome to die just of old age XD.

About the lore, I don't know how things have been during the last 10 years or so, the only Space Marine Codex I ever had was the "Angels of Death" (with BA and Dark Angels), and that time there were about four chapters with their codex... In theory, Dark Angels and Blood Angels should had the same amount of lore (Space Wolves are a little too specialized, and the Ultramarines are the "generic" who now play baccarat with Tyranids regularly); also that background about some Dark Angels who turned to chaos (and then they just left the Chaos legions, to live "peacefully" lost in the empire of man) was too interesting to just forget (not to mention it was implied their Primarch was still alive, yet in Stasis).

Of course, we must take into account Dawn of War, with the Blood Ravens chapter (I think they were a sucessor chapter of the BA, or am I wrong?).

Blood Ravens are not a successor Chapter to the Blood Angels. Well, they might be. The Ravens don't know who their genetic father is.

Argus Van Het said:

Yes you are wrong.

I'm going to commit a forum faux pas by actually returning to the original post to make a comment. Since I'm not entirely sure about multi-quoting on this forum, I'm afraid that I shall turn to italicised text, all from that original post. Also, I'm just commenting for the fun of it and for the purposes of discussion.

Space Marines can breathe underwater.

This is one of those subsequently added abilities that I just ignore. While some of the functionality of organs might have once served a function, this is just going a bit too far, at least in my estimation. Thus, for me, the Third Lung acts as an oxygen reserve when the sphincter shuts off the esophaguskeeps the old body going, but it is not breathing under water. So, in this case I to go with the older 'fluff.'

Space Marines can spit an acid poison at their enemies, or use it to dissolve the strongest metals (Yeah, SMs can lick their way out of prison.)

Quite how they stop the teeth from dissolving as well as up for debate, but we'll just ignore that for now.

They can eat the flesh of a creature to gain some of its memories.

Ah, this 'ole peach, written on some faulty science. It's still kind of cool, but one imagines that there are going to be some limitations to this ability. Snacking down on every creature in the biosphere of a world might get tiresome quickly.

Then again, what do I know. I don't bother with the biology of it and just model this ability as a form of necromancy (reading the mind of the creature that you consume). Go fantasy!

They can cocoon themselves in a waxy substance (that protects them from hard vacuum) and enter suspended animation, for centuries if need be.

They've also go this funky stuff called power armour that does the same, plus has the added bonus that you don't have to go through explosive decompression before you can sweat.

They have an extra heart, and an extra kidney, in addition to an extra lung. The extra kidney and lung are both pretty awesome.

Might be that the heart is "awesome" to, especially if it keeps all the blood pumping around and prevents clotting, what with all those Larraman cells winging around, the extra organs, etc.

They can taste-test substances for toxicity and nutritional content, in addition to being able to track by scent like a hound dog.

Isn't that some can track by scent? One has to wonder about eating and acquiring nutritional content for alien lifeforms, though, but what the heck! (Might be too bean counting for some to have to bother with such concepts.) Indeed, this might feed back (ha!) into the omaphageait might only work with human neural tissues!

They have super-hearing (can filter and enhance different sounds, in addition to being much sharper than a normal humans) and enhanced low-light vision. They also have better-than-human balance.

Is that "enhanced low light vision" actually just improved visual acuity. So it's not like you're looking through a starlight/low light scope, but rather they just see a bit better in the dark? Of course, there's this funky things called autosenses that come with the equally funky power armour, and that might be a tad more useful. Well, if someone tying it to the helmet and making it difficult for you to pose with your square jaw to the pict-catchers.

I think it's pretty easy to wonder whether or not we get "wargame" marines or "fluff" marines.

I would hope 'fluff' Marines. Least ways, that's the route that I personally took in designing the Marines (still a WiP). Then again, the same goes with the other aspects of the 40k universe, though primarily because I don't have much truck with the wargame.

I don't think there's a whole lot of reason to think they'll pull back from that and ***** out the Space Marines to make them "balanced" or "reasonable" or "not ******* terrifying."

Perhaps not quite the turn of phrase that I would have used, but I agree. On the other hand, one hopes that we don't see walking demi-demi-gods.

I'm looking forward to the time when we get a bit more insight into how the Marines are actually going to work in the system. After Ascension I'm somewhat suspicious, so it would be great to begin to read something more meaty than what Chapters are going to appear. Either way, one certainly hope that Marines are appropriately "awesome" and not too much like Brother Agamorr.

Kage

I would like to just say first a space marine IS super human and the TT game goes not show it well. But a GW game does show how they should be. that game my friends is Inquisitor . the game uses the same d100 system as DH and RT for stats and damage with the same type of hit charts and crit tables.

so to show how a spacemarine should work vs a inquisitor. first i will show you how good Inquisitor Eisenhorn is. (Sq is how well the person can problem solve and Nv is how well a person can keep his cool in combat.)

Eisenhorn

WS BS S T I Wp Sq Nv Ld

74 78 60 68 69 92 91 89 91

spacemarine

WS BS S T I Wp Sq Nv Ld

75 75 200 150 85 75 75 95 75

they have other abilities but i don't feel like writing a book. but in a nut shell with the damage they do with a 200str and wounds they get frome the T150 every spacemarine can kill a man with a knife with the min roll and it takes heavy weapons to take down a astartes! they are to **** good.

I suppose that includes the power armour...

By the way, I think a Space Marine might be at the same level with 0XP than a rank 16 Primaris Psycker or a rank 13-14 Inquisitor (form DH: Ascension), based solely on when can they add the talent Enemy: Astartes.... (I know it's not "KOS that bastard", but animosity and -20 or more to Fellowship rolls, but it can be used as a loose guideline).

Theofonias said:

THQ

Argus Van Het said:

Ross and Sam have said that, roughly speaking, a Deathwatch character will be on the same level as a starting Ascension character. Obviously, as is the case with Rogue Trader, most of that XP is likely to be put into the additional characteristics (heightened strength and toughness of a Space Marine, higher BS and WS), so whilst they might be on the same level XP-wise, I wouldn't expect them to be on the same level skill-wise.

Belivar said:

Ah, the infamous "Imperial Space Marine Plasma Fist of Doom! " (Just joking about the trademark!) I believe that an armoured Marine could, at least on average, do more damage than a plasma gun, or something like that. Actually, that might have been outside of their power armourI cannot quite remember and am most certainly too lazy to go and check it up on the Specialist Games website. Suffice to say, very strange mechanics. It often felt like reading through mechanised power creep ( ) even though the 'fluff' was amongst the GW has ever produced.

Hopefully a part of Deathwatch will be to offer up a solution to some of the scaling issues and doesn't overtly subscribe to the "Astartes-grade" thing, while still making Marines interesting and uber.

Kage

the stats i posted are without armour. the armor adds 1/5 to the users Str for a total of 220! it uses the same system for melee damage as DH and RT so they can put out 1d6+22 with a knife. and the average person in that game can take 19 points of damage before the area that is hit is Crippled or in critical(=dead).