Aajav-Khan said:

More or less what I'm pointing at. There is no real evidence that the Blood Angels' geneseed has any actual physical mutations.

My question is, regarding Space Marine conduct and policy and whatever else, does the Inquisition have any authority or power over them? I admit my own personal ignorance about the subject, but I've been led to believe that the Space Marines are a monkish chapter above and beyond the general laws of the Imperium, to be called upon for the direst of emergencies (confirmed in some way by bureaucracy and Librarians and other Psykers), and that they generallly do what they please.

Here's another question. Are they always rendered sterile by the process of becoming a Space Marine? Might there be some that could spawn new generations of them with their modified geneseed? I had this rather brilliant idea of a Rogue Trader Adventure regarding a new breed of human involving Mother Nature commandeering a Lost Space Marine Chapter and developing a new space-faring EMPIRE as a result.

Generally Space Marines are independent from the Imperium proper, but they of course have to work within it. This means that whilst Inquisitors don't really have any power over a Chapter, and in most cases it seems as though Space Marine chapters will tell Inquisitors to f*** off and do their own thing, Inquisitors can make life tricky for a Chapter if they really want, so it's usually best to pay lip service.

Basically, they do what the Inquisition wants them to do if they feel like it, which is usually if they decide they want to do it themselves (and take the Inquisitor's "order" as a suggestion) or if it'd cause them more harm than good to ignore the Inquisitor's request.

Each chapter does have a better or worse relationship with the Inquisition though, so it pretty much works on a Chapter-by-Chapter basis.

As for the "sterile" bit, I'd say yes. Some sources (such as BloodQuest) seem to suggest that Space Marines no longer have genitals (images showing the entire groinal region covered with black carapace), and others don't. I think it's safe to say that Deathwatch likely won't go into that. Either way, given the huge amount of genetic engineering, plus the fact that, if they could breed, why wouldn't they breed instead of use the whole geneseed thing, it makes sense for that to be the case. Even if they weren't sterile, there'd be too many genetic differences between them and a normal human to be able to procreate anyway, and since there are no female Space Marines, they're de facto sterile due to having no one to be able to breed with.

MILLANDSON said:

Space Marines are still genetically human. If they could procreate they would likely produce normal human offspring.

Aajav-Khan said:

Let's not forget the fact that Sanguinus also gave the BAs a huge benefit in form of an insanely long lifespan.

Dante, chapter master of the BA, is more than a thousand years old (he's probably around 1500 since he is the Angels master for about 1100 years now). He is the oldest SM alive (Dreds do not count) and everyone defers to him during campaigns.

I really would love to see an age table for different SM chapters, good RP possibilities there in playing characters of different age and experience.

I can remember reading a short story about an Inquisitor investigating the purity of a SM chapter. The guy tried to lord it over the SM while the Captain who walked with him deflected every sentence with adherence to rules and the inability of the inquisition to interfere. I really don't believe that the Inquisition can give orders to the SM, they are after all almost a separate body from the empire (like the Adeptus Mechanicus). Plus the Ordo Hereticus has limited reasons to interfere since the SM aren't part of the Imperial Cult, so allegations of heresy can only be based on suspicions of chaos activity. Xenos can petition a chapter for support, but save for a scenario akin to Dawn of War II I don't see it happening. And Malleus would use their own SMs.

Arag said:

Is that more of the non-sense they printed in the new BA codex? Sweet lord Matt Ward is an idiot. Space Marines all have ridiculously long lifespansif they don't die in battle first, or succumb to the Black Rage in the case of the Blood Angels. In the Salamanders book that came out not too long ago they found a Salamander from the time of the Heresy still alive (barely). Both Calgar and Logan Grimnar are well over 500 years old, (and amusingly have Eternal Warrior whereas the old man doesn't), while as I recall the Chapter Master of the Iron Snakes was inferred to be pretty freakin ancient as well. And the "everyone defers to Dante" thing makes me want to puke...or crack up laughing...not sure which. There are a thousand Chapters, and I'm pretty sure some of them would tell Dante to take a flying leap (Iron Hands, Black Templars, and Dark Angels all come to mind).

I swear they really need to fire Matt Ward. All he does is write cheesy rules and even cheesier lore.

Atheosis said:

Erm... no? It's been in the lore since 2nd edition that the Blood Angels are the longest living of all Space Marines, and that Dante was Chapter Master of the Blood Angels back when Magnus Calgar was first inducted into the Ultramarine Scout Company. He has always been the oldest living Space Marine, not including those contained within the Dreadnoughts. He has always been the most experienced of the Space Marine Chapter Masters, which is why he was accepted as the Commander of Imperial forces, which included all the Space Marines involved in both wars, at both the 2nd and 3rd Wars of Armageddon.

So please, before you start slagging off a particular writer you don't like, do some research first.

MILLANDSON said:

Yes he's long been the oldest Space Marine. But as far as I'm aware this whole "Blood Angelz live longer!!!" thing is new. If it's not, it's still kind of silly, since all Marines are virtually immortal if they don't die in combat. To be honest the Blood Angels should be a shorter lived Chapter seeing as they have a fatal defect that causes them to have to be put down all the time. Whatever, it's kind of waste of time harping on the tripe GW is passing of as lore these days.

Atheosis said:

Except they're not. Blood Angels have long been described as being a particularly long-lived chapter, with Dante being used as the prime example of this. Most Astartes don't last past three centuries, generally speaking. Those who're older than that are rare.

The idea of 'virtually immortal' Astartes is the new concept, presented within one of the Horus Heresy novels as the hypothesis of a character based on the fact that no Space Marine had ever died of old age since the Great Crusades began (not surprising; the Crusades only lasted about three centuries).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

So then are you saying some Marines die of old age? That seems a bit far-fetched to me, and completely absent from the lore. And that is essentially what is being posited when it's said that the Blood Angels live longer than everyone else. The very idea of a longer lived Chapter is pretty freakin absurd since these guys spend most of their lives a hair's breadth from death. I mean what conclusion am I supposed to draw from all of this? Is there an old folks home for elderly Astartes? It's just so stupid.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Oh and yes they are indeed virtually immortal: at least based off certain sources. We all have to pick and choose our sources in this setting of inconsistencies.

Atheosis said:

Or, you know, you could take things to a reasonable conclusion rather than just rattling off streams of hyperbole.

The Blood Angels are stated to be amongst the most long-lived of Astartes. Consequently, this must mean that other Astartes are less long-lived by comparison.

Now, there's a minor technical point to consider here - nobody really dies of 'old age'. There isn't some point where an imaginary timer reaches zero and your body stops working. Instead, age comes with increasing infirmity, frailty, late-onset ailments, and the consequences of years of wear and tear which eventually take their toll.

The Astartes are subject to this, though to a far, far lesser extent than normal human beings - the Astartes do, afterall, age (example - older Space Wolves grow longer, thicker hair and canines and generally show several outward signs of their age). But while a Marine remains in peak physical fitness for a very long time, sooner or later, especially with the accumulation of scar tissue (likely given the sheer number of injuries a Marine will suffer over his lifetime of intense battle), their bodies will weaken and fail and allow circumstances to conspire to end their lives. It might still be a death in battle, caused by the body's encroaching frailties allowing not quite enough speed or strength to prevail, or it might be an increased susceptability to implant complications.

Blood Angels, for reasons unknown, seem less succeptable to this inevitable decline.

As for 'old folks homes' for elderly Astartes... there are plenty of second-line support roles for an aging Astartes to take up if he feels that he will burden his brothers - training scouts, vehicle operations, reserve roles within the fortress monastery, etc - or he may fight that little bit harder and aim to go out fighting as an Astartes should, after acknowledging his advancing years.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

That's all well and good, but there's one problem: I've never encountered a story of a Marine past his prime or on the decline as it were. There are stories of some pretty old Astartes, but not once have I encountered a reference to them "not being what they used to be". If anything it seems that the older they get the more badass. As far as I can tell Astartes don't really age except in that "I'm a grizzled veteran with greying hair" sort of way. And once again there's a fair bit of lore that more or less establishes them as nearly immortal (the ten-thousand year old Marine, who only seemed to have died because his muscles had atrophied to nothing, in the recent Salamanders novel sticks out in my mind). The Blood Angels longevity thing aside, can you think of any references to Astartes aging in anything but a superficial manner? I really can't think of any.

The longevity of the Blood Angels is indeed old fluff. It was certainly in the 2007 White Dwarf codex, and it was not new then. One can assume it refers more to active service life than the possibility of dying of old age. Dante's extremely long tenure as Chapter Master, for example, is remarkable throughout all the Chapters.

In Angels of Darkness , the apothecary was old and nearing the end of his frontline service (in fact, he had already been given an out-of-the-way role) and was mentioned to be planning what could be considered a retirement in which he would dedicate himself to the physics rather than battle. It makes sense for very old Marines to work in a training capacity or within the Chapter Fortress rather than continuing on the frontline, and I believe I have seen mentions of this sort of thing elsewhere, though I can't recall precisely where right now.

It is mentioned in one of the early Horus Heresy books that Loken looks older than he did a few years previously, which again points to an aging process.

I agree with the original poster saying the age of your PC could be quite interesting. A Blood Angel might be considerably older than a member of another Chapter (though, arguably, that could have ramifications for the sort of xp level at which you would want to start playing the character, as you may expect them to have more battlefield experience due to their advanced years).

Atheosis the source for Dante's age is my old 1998 Blood Angels codex written by Gav Thorpe. So the info on age is more than 12 years old (in fact I don't know if it hasn't been mentioned earlier).

As for the standard age and experience, let's not forget that Deathwatch isn't about playing rank-and-file marines. I hope that the fluff we'll be given will match my expectation of playing either highly unorthodox marines and/or the best of the best (think scout sergeant Cyrus of the Blood Ravens or blood claw Lucas the Trickster of the Space Wolves)

It would be more than fun playing a BA who's older than every single other marine on the team (maybe even older than the whole team combined).

Atheosis said:

Blood Angels sleep long times in their sarcophagi or what was it called in the BA Codex? 10 years ago i think

warpdancer said:

They do indeed return to the aspirant sarcophagi as fully-fledged Space Marines, when their duties permit, where their blood is cleansed and purified. The intent is to slow the process of degeneration caused by their Flaw.

And it's a good point that these characters will likely start off being pretty epic in their own right (and whatever xp level you're at, your fellows would be around the same, so advanced age couldn't equate to greater prowess, it would just be a potentially interesting RP point).

So you people don't see how silly the the very idea is? And when I say that what I mean is that nearly all marines are going to die before they reach 200, Blood Angels or otherwise. Even if Blood Angels can live longer (and once again I was very aware that Dante is the oldest Marine), it just seems really stupid to make a big deal out of it because they wouldn't normally actually do so. The Blood Angels in particular are going to have a high attrition rate due to the the Black Rage, and yet it's common for them to live a 1000 years? Constant battle and a tendency to go stark raving mad are going to make that kind of age really freakin rare even if they do indeed genetially have a longer life span, and yet Matt Ward apparently is claiming it's common. Don't you see how stupid that is? And Dante doesn't even have Eternal Warrior...the silliness of it all hurts my head.

Oh and (even accounting for three or so lost centuries) Captain Lysander is well over a thousand years old with no apparent signs of aging, only furthering my point that all Astartes are potentially very long-lived.

Atheosis said:

Atheosis said:

Well we are talking about playing a superhuman warrior-monk in a dystopian future where you transport an army across the galaxy only to attack the enemy with swords. So in short, no.

I would love to know where that 200 years life expectancy comes from. Because AFAIK not every chapter jumps from conflict to conflict. I've recently read about a group of chapters that guard the eye of terror. And I'm pretty certain that the eye does not spew forth hundreds of chaos warbands a minute to keep those chapters busy. And then you have specialist chapters like the mentor legion, which never commit themselves fully. Instead they follow their mission in a way that is less deadly than the flesh tearer philosophy of "if it moves kill it, then charge forward screaming".

Sure, a generalization can be made. But as any generalization it would be inaccurate at most.

The BA age is relevant for RP purposes only, since age does not change your stats. While I don't care what the new codex says (or Matt Ward), I would love to point out that the Deathwatch doesn't get average joes. It gets those who can make a difference. Which means that it gets the survivors who, in the case of BA's, are older and more experienced.

And to finish it with an RP idea:

Imagine an Ultramarine sergeant standing before a crate of bolter ammo harping about fire efficiency. In comes the BA brother and says "move aside kiddo, that's my ammo crate", leaving the sergeant dumbfounded and wondering about the true age of the BA.

PS: Have you noticed that the BA high chaplain armor looks very similar to the armor Gary Oldman wore in the '92 Dracula movie?

"Well we are talking about playing a superhuman warrior-monk in a dystopian future where you transport an army across the galaxy only to attack the enemy with swords. So in short, no."

Well said, sir.

"Imagine an Ultramarine sergeant standing before a crate of bolter ammo harping about fire efficiency. In comes the BA brother and says "move aside kiddo, that's my ammo crate", leaving the sergeant dumbfounded and wondering about the true age of the BA.

PS: Have you noticed that the BA high chaplain armor looks very similar to the armor Gary Oldman wore in the '92 Dracula movie?"

Exactly! That sort of scenario is very appealing to me. It's simple things like that, along with the character's origins and the experiences that have brought them into the Deathwatch, that will give this game depth for those who want it to be more than a straightforward killfest.

And you must be talking about Astorath. I hadn't noticed until you said that, but you're quite right. It is very similar armour, just Blood Angeled up by making it more muscular and adding the ubiquitous nipples. Marvellous!

Atheosis said:

Atheosis said:

warpdancer said:

Most of it? Hardly. Try several centuries.

Arag said:

So then are Blood Angels slow learners? Because what you are proposing doesn't make sense to me. The idea of having a Blood Angel be older than the rest of the Marines on the team simply for the fact that he's a Blood Angel, and yet him not actually having more skill (xp) than them seems odd. Are we then concluding that Blood Angels are long-lived Marines with learning disabilities?

As far as the Astartes Praeses go (the Chapters guarding the Eye of Terror), I don't think you get how vast the Eye is and how constant the incursions of Chaos warbands and chaos-led rebellions are. No there aren't Black Crusades all the time, but those Chapters are going to be busy, trust me.

In the darkness of the far future there is only war (that the Blood Angels miraculously survive over many centuries so they can be the oldest of the old...cuz they're cool space vampires!). Sigh.