10 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

We will have to agree to disagree when it comes to the mechanical depth of Destiny. 50% of the card pool is “remove a die, reroll a die or change die” in. Hundred different ways. That’s not diversity, that’s a game with an extremely limited design space. Destiny is a fun game, but it’s strategic depth is extremely limited especially considering how many sets are out already. It’s business model is at its core to blame for the inability to maintain an audience long term.

Also, like the overwhelming majority of people who play games, I have no interest in playing with strangers at the local game store nor fuss about with the 3rd party markets.

I have to say this is the first time your complaints about strategic depth is actually aimed at strategic depth rather than your limited card pool. Unfortunately I believe you are targeting the games "mechanical chops" as the reason it is not grabbing hyper competitive markets of Magic, Yugioh and Pokemon which is not a fair assessment in the slightest. I have played card games since Magic first came out and I can say that as time goes on the more I find Magic's base system to be extremely outdated and far surpassed by other card games that take a similar system but work out all the kinks that magic is stuck with like the dragon ball card game and to a small degree the final fantasy card game and yet neither of those have taken off huge either like Yugioh and pokemon or magic. These games success has much less to do with mechanical abilities of the games themselves than they do with marketing. Magic is basically the grandfather of all card games these days and because of this the player base is massive, if you are getting into card games it is impossible to avoid, yugioh has a popular anime all about advertising for its plastic crack and pokemon the show and the games is probably one of the biggest marketing giants for kids the world has ever known. This has all come down to marketing, in addition all 3 of these games can regularly be found in big name stores at all times of the year, but asmodee has not done the same the only one I know of that they released to big name stores is the two player set being released at target. No boosters to be found at Walmart and no ads on tv at all. There is nothing to advertise this thing to a casual audience and to have a competitive game you need a casual audience. This is what makes the big 3 successful, not their mechanics, but the marketing targeting a wide casual audience which naturally brings in more people and the more people you have to play the more likely those people are going to get competitive.

That said If your major complaint about the strategic depth of Star Wars Destiny is that it basically boils down to I bring 4 character dice (on 2 or 3 characters) and you bring 4 character dice (on 2 or 3 characters) than we both spend and generate resources with dice to get more dice and then play cards that are all variants on "remove a die, change a die, reroll some die" than the complaint may be valid, but do not mistake this for a solved meta. A solved meta would mean that everyone was essentially playing the same deck because someone found the best combination of cards that do the first part of this, however there is enough variations at the moment of both what goal the deck is playing towards (damage or mill) and enough variants of how to play around what someone is doing while accomplishing your own goal that each deck has that there is still a good number of decks in the meta. People might claim this is a Snoke vehicle meta and that is how it has landed with the "solve" but that is only because it was particularly strong against the mill decks that popped up while still being good against 2 character decks, and yet there are still some 2 character decks that can give snoke the run for his money it is just the most popular and one of the easier ways to go right now.

Ultimately it is not their strategic depth that makes the big 3 the big 3. Magic is working with a largely outdated land system where a competitive player can occasionally be "mana screwed" by either having to much mana or not enough back in the day the art work and the relatively new market of collectible card games allowed magic to grow and since then most have tried to improve upon the system that magic started, but now it is played because of its grand daddy nature, its system is now out of date for modern card design and if it was made now and had to build a fan base from the ground up no one would buy it. Yugioh has been touted as largely being to solitaire with half the cards in that game simply existing to search out other cards in your deck so that you can search out more cards of your deck, and Pokemon somehow manages to combine the problems of both magic and yugioh, yet they got popular and are successful as both competitive games and casual games all because they knew to appeal to the casual crowd as much as possible. This is where star wars fails, not in its chops but in its ability to appeal to the casuals and turn those casuals into competitive. All of your complaints about price, and about the lack of variety you have without relying on a secondary market point to and emphasis this problem. You want to play it casually with your friends and even with spending 600 dollars on the game you can play 3 or 4 different viable decks and that is it, not enough variety for the amount of money put in, this is even worse for a casual player who buys a couple starter decks only to find out they are not even complete decks, missing a character die, and missing 10 cards from the deck and buying less than a box adds almost nothing to his ability to try out different things.

1 hour ago, tunewalker said:

I have to say this is the first time your complaints about strategic depth is actually aimed at strategic depth rather than your limited card pool. Unfortunately I believe you are targeting the games "mechanical chops" as the reason it is not grabbing hyper competitive markets of Magic, Yugioh and Pokemon which is not a fair assessment in the slightest.

Sort of, what I'm saying is that it shouldn't have been attempting to grab from the hyper competitive markets and competing with Magic The gathering in the first place because of its simplified card play and the franchise on which its based. Its focus should have been on capturing its current audience of casual gamers which is what has always been great about all of the Living Card games.

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but do not mistake this for a solved meta. A solved meta would mean that everyone was essentially playing the same deck because someone found the best combination of cards that do the first part of this, however there is enough variations at the moment of both what goal the deck is playing towards (damage or mill) and enough variants of how to  play around what someone is doing while accomplishing your own goal that each deck has that there is still a good number of decks in the meta.

I think that's a pretty rose colored view of the meta. Yes there are many different types of decks used in tournaments but all of these decks are based on 2-3 different core mechanics infused in what amounts to 50% of the dice pool, they are just going about it using different cards that do the same thing. The design space is very limited. I mean go through your collection. Seperate cards that remove dice, reroll dice and change dice. You'll find the vast majority of your collection in a neat pile. I'm not saying it's not fun or interesting to come up with new deck ideas and test them against your friends, I just don't think that it makes for a good competitive game and in the long run as a game is not sustainable. How many more sets can they come out with before they start running out of ways to make you reroll dice or remove dice?

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Ultimately it is not their strategic depth that makes the big 3 the big 3. Magic is working with a largely outdated land system where a competitive player can occasionally be "mana screwed" by either having to much mana or not enough back in the day the art work and the relatively new market of collectible card games allowed magic to grow and since then most have tried to improve upon the system that magic started, but now it is played because of its grand daddy nature, its system is now out of date for modern card design and if it was made now and had to build a fan base from the ground up no one would buy it.

I don't think that is accurate at all. In all card games there is a inherent "luck factor" regarding the order and when cards are drawn. All deck construction in any game assumes some level of "luck" and I'm surprised you would burn a game for including "mana screw" like magic when comparing it to a game where you roll dice to see what happens. I mean you control what land you put in your deck, the dice... are dice. In Destiny at least half the games you play are won based entirely on "lucky rolls" and "luck draws". It's really not all that different. I also disagree with you that Magic is living off some sort of Grandaddy clause. Most of the people playing it today weren't even born when Magic The Gathering was released. It's been picked up by a new generation of gamers not because "its always been around", but because its a good game people want to play. Magic remains the most sold and played card game in the world and its not for any other reason than that it's a great game people love to play. I'm not suggesting it doesn't have its own set of issues, but it has survived them... I don't think that will be the case with Destiny unfortunately.

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This is where star wars fails, not in its chops but in its ability to appeal to the casuals and turn those casuals into competitive.  All of your complaints about price, and about the lack of variety you have without relying on a secondary market point to and emphasis this problem. You want to play it casually with your friends and even with spending 600 dollars on the game you can play 3 or 4 different viable decks and that is it, not enough variety for the amount of money put in, this is even worse for a casual player who buys a couple starter decks only to find out they are not even complete decks, missing a character die, and missing 10 cards from the deck and buying less than a box adds almost nothing to his ability to try out different things.

I suppose even though we disagree on the how and why of it, at least the end result is something we can agree on, because I really do think that while there some issues with Destiny as a competitive game, the fact that it's so inaccessible to casual players keeping them at arm's length is ultimately going to be its greatest downfall. Competitive communities are born on the dabblers that get sucked into it, all serious competitive players at some point where guys who "wanted to try it" but the cost to entry is just too high and requires way too much work to appeal to casual players. You have to make it easy on them and while I think the starter sets make for a great introduction into the game (speaking from experience), I have never been able to convince anyone to take it any further simply because of the cost of getting into the game beyond the entry level points. Its kind of like your choices in Destiny are spend 20 bucks on a "learn to play set" and then if you actually want to play... you need a few hundred dollars to put a deck together.

The fact that so many decks can all be created on what is essentially just a core mechanic to me just shows the power of the core mechanic. It is a core mechanic that adds enough diversity that there is no need to change the core mechanic or break the core mechanic to work. In fact the time my area lost the most amount of players was when action cheating and unblockable damage was everywhere in set 2, it was breaking the core mechanics of the game and that lost the most amount of players.

For magic I know several younger people who are getting into magic and it is always the same for each and every one of them. They typically started with something like Yugioh or pokemon (super casual fan base brought in by good marketing of those franchises) and started picking up magic because every time they went to their local card shop people were playing magic, so an older person or group of people gets them into it, they are only playing it because that is what everyone else is playing. Magic the gathering is a lot like Monopoly, or Risk, or any of the multitude of other classic board games that are picked up because that is just what people play. Magic has great card design, and great art and is taken seriously which keeps people playing it which gets more people playing it which in turn keeps more people playing it, but it is old and its base system shows its age where even games based off the same design principles as magic strongly avoids the land and mana mechanic because modern card design recognizes these things as outdated. If Magic were released today in the saturated market that is CCG's and needed to build a fan base from the ground up it simply could not and would not based entirely on the base mechanics of the game. People play magic, because magic is popular, with card games especially CCG's the strength of the mechanics do not matter if not enough people are playing it, inversely the base mechanics do not matter if enough people are playing it. People who love CCG's in general flock to magic not because it is the most fun mechanically for them (I know people that play magic that prefer star wars, I know people who play magic that prefer Dragon ball's mechanics and I know people who play magic that prefer the style of the new Transformers game) but because they know they can always find a game with magic in one format or another because it does not matter if there is more fun game out there if other people are not willing to try and play that game with them. You could create the greatest game in the world and get 0 recognition if you do not properly advertise it and if this happens magic will just drown it, maybe 2 or 3 people will find this game they will play it and then realize no one else was and just to be able to get more regular games they will go right back to magic. This is why Keyforge is so appealing to everyone right now, because it promises to be a game that just about anyone can play 10 dollar entry fee and you can have a CCG experience minus the deck building with a mechanic that is not as outdated as the only other ubiquitous CCG magic.

I used to play magic a lot, and I have played so many games since magic that i simply can not go back without being disappointed, every now and again I will pull out a magic deck, but only because that is the only game some one else has and it is better than nothing, I have even pulled out other games that people have enjoyed they are just not willing to stick with a game because they have already invested so much money into Magic. That is the number 1 reason I have heard for why I can not get someone to play just about anything else. "I already spent like 1000 dollars in magic so I am going to stick with it"

Anyway that is more of a magic rant than a star wars one, but ya I think the number of decks in star wars all while working off similar mechanics shows the strength of that mechanic, and it is very telling when they moved away from that mechanic was the largest player drop. Sticking with the core mechanic but offering variety within it is kind of what this game thrives on, but still number 1 issue is marketing and distribution.

15 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Sort of, what I'm saying is that it shouldn't have been attempting to grab from the hyper competitive markets and competing with Magic The gathering in the first place because of its simplified card play and the franchise on which its based. Its focus should have been on capturing its current audience of casual gamers which is what has always been great about all of the Living Card games.

I would expect that LCG has the appearance of supporting Casual Play, if only because that meta changes are so slow as to have the game just fail to appeal to competitive gamers at all because they get locked into a stale meta. As an LCG starting with 90 cards and keeping to a schedule of 15 cards per month we would have seen 90+(23*15) = 435 cards. We would be after a 2 year period right in the middle of the third set of cards, so Poe/Maz, FN2199 and Unkar. I nearly gave up on the back of that meta, and were it not for Legacy I probably would have, no one not even casuals would have stayed in a game with a terrible meta and a slow rate of change.

37 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

I think that's a pretty rose colored view of the meta. Yes there are many different types of decks used in tournaments but all of these decks are based on 2-3 different core mechanics infused in what amounts to 50% of the dice pool, they are just going about it using different cards that do the same thing. The design space is very limited.

I think you are over-simplifying the root card archetypes, dice removal isn't just dice removal. Over simplify any game and you'll render the game to a very limited design space.

45 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

I don't think that is accurate at all. In all card games there is a inherent "luck factor" regarding the order and when cards are drawn.

While I don't disagree that luck is there I think there is a degree of misrepresentation of luck that goes on. My opponent "god rolled" to win or I lost because of my "rubbish rolls", sure I needed a discard to win, but if only one of my dice has a discard and I really unlucky not to hit it after 2-3 re-rolls? I have made the mistake of expecting more from a bad dice as much as any one. In general I have been as guilty as sin, complaining about my bad luck or my opponents good luck when it was nothing more or less than being well played.

1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

Magic remains the most sold and played card game in the world and its not for any other reason than that it's a great game people love to play.

I think too if the game mechanics of Magic makes it the king of all games, then why wouldn't games that almost card for card copy the idea of Magic fail? World of Warcraft and Battletech being two reasonable examples of games that copied magic almost card for card and never gained traction with gamers.

Magic has developed into a game that sustains WotC, and as such they have a dedicated team that manages, develops and supports that game, Destiny is just one game in a range of games, FFG does not have a dedicated team that develops or supports the game. I think that is the paramount distinction that gives insight as to the success of one game over the other. I think this creates the most notable difference, because FFG just walks into problems and flails about, never really gaining the corporate learning as to what to do to effect change for the better. FFG haven't improved their logistics over the years, they put the producers in Asia and Europe but can't get the product around the globe any better than they did 10 years ago. They still can't do better than a release date of Q4 for most of their games, and half the time they fail to deliver even with such robust targets. Are we the only community complaining about OP?

How many times can you make shield tokens? Green ones, blue ones, red ones and teal? Alt-art cards that are never used because they just never enter the meta, which also leaves players questioning the play testing process, did it really take 18 months for a Holdout Blaster to be seen as a good card? Also, has anyone thought about Alt-Dice? A see through or Sparkle Dice for an Upgrade or Support, you have the card and two dice are no good without the card, so why not a see-through holocron, acrylic life counters or overwritten and power action tokens?

Ultimately FFG is failing mainly because they lack the ability to do thing differently. They made board games and the cycle of make, manufacture and reprint is built into everything they do. But the LCG, CCG, MCG (Miniatures Collectable Game - X-Wing, Armada, Legion and Runescape) and UCG (Unique Games - Keyforge) games they are now getting into seem to require a different business strategy to what they are used to and yet they are sticking to what they are used to.

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I think too if the game mechanics of Magic makes it the king of all games, then why wouldn't games that almost card for card copy the idea of Magic fail? World of Warcraft and Battletech being two reasonable examples of games that copied magic almost card for card and never gained traction with gamers.

Well that is a good question, though there are examples of this in other gaming platforms. For example in the market of MMORPG's no MMO has ever reached the level of World of Warcraft even though many are effectively cloned version of that game. I do think there is some logic here. If someone does "a thing" really well, copies of that thing tend not to. Another words, Magic the Gathering players aren't likely to switch to a clone version of their game. If they are going to switch, it would have to be both different and better than their current game and I think this is the direct reason this hasn't happened. There hasn't been a better game then Magic The Gathering made yet. Now I'm sure we could argue about that, so lets not, I'm not saying "I think no one has made a better game", I'm saying that the market as a whole, using their wallets as a vote, have decided no one has made a better game then magic the gathering.

I can understand it however, I mean I started playing magic back in the Arabian Nights era and over the course of all the years of gaming that I have done I have always had Magic The Gathering in my gaming spectrum on some level. It was a "every Friday night" thing for years, then it when to a "on occasion thing". Then PC game versions of the game came out and to this day I still play them on my console for example. I have never really fully tired of it.. its not like my hot and heavy "must play it now game", but Magic the Gathering remains a fun game I pick up now and again, and I'm still surprised how it has maintained my interest over the years. I can count on one hand with some fingers missing the amount of games I played 30 years ago that I still play today. There is definitely something more to it than some grandfathered thing in there.

I do agree with you however that it's strange that there haven't been any games in 30 years that have given Magic The Gathering a run for its money. You would have thought by now it would have happened.

5 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Well that is a good question, though there are exa  mples of this in other gaming platforms. For example in the market of MMORPG's no MMO has ever reached the level of World of Warcraft even though many are effectively cloned version of that game. I do think there is some logic here. If someone does "a thing" really well, copies of that thing tend not to. Another words, Magic the Gathering players aren't likely to switch to a clone version of their game. If they are going to switch, it would have to be both different and better than their current game and I think this is the direct reason this hasn't happened. There hasn't been a better game then Magic The Gathering made yet. Now I'm sure we could argue about that, so lets not, I'm not saying "I think no one has made a better game", I'm saying that  the mark  et as  a whole, using their wallets as a vote, have decided no one has made a better game then magic the gathering.

I can understand it however, I mean I started playing magic back in the Arabian Nights era and over the course of all the years of gaming that I have done I have always had Magic The Gathering in my gaming spectrum on some level. It was a "every Friday night" thing for years, then it when to a "on occasion thing". Then PC game versions of the game came out and to this day I still play them on my console for example. I have never really fully tired of it.. its not like my hot and heavy "must play it now game", but Magic the Gathering remains a fun game I pick up now and again, and I'm still surprised how it has maintained my interest over the years. I can count on one hand with some fingers missing the amount of games I played 30 years ago that I still play today. There is definitely something more to it than some grandfathered thing in there.

I do agree with you however that it's strange that there haven't been any games in 30 years that have given Magic The Gathering a run for its money. You would have thought by now it would have happened.

The market has decided that no one has made a more popular game than Magic. Magic is fun, but is not surviving on mechanics alone. Think about how Magic is advertised and pushed. It does not advertise its game play everyone already knows its game play. When a new set comes out it advertises a new type of card or new card combinations, but when attracting new players the argument to play Magic is simply.... "its magic". That entire point about people do not typically flock to a game that is just like another game is exactly my point as to why if magic came out now it would be Dead On Arrival, there are so many games that either do what Magic does or do what Magic does BETTER that have brand names like Dragon ball Super which is in its fifth set and Final fantasy which is in its VII set. If you want a real example of this check this out https://gameranx.com/features/id/32418/article/top-10-best-trading-card-games/ these are online card games Magic is barely on the list of the top 16 because this time it was not the first, but it still makes it on simply on the popularity of the brand at this point even the article does not make pretense about this with "I am not going to go on to long about this, Magic is magic, everybody already knows this game or some one who plays it". That is what drives magic familiarity, that is why it can not be toppled and will not be toppled. It is the same reason people still play monopoly, a decent game everyone knows.

9 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I do agree with you however that it's strange that there haven't been any games in 30 years that have given Magic The Gathering a run for its money. You would have thought by now it would have happened.

Both Vs System and Decipher’s Star Wars spent time as the number one selling card game. Magic has certainly been challenged. So much so that they spent a ton of money to pull Decipher’s license from Star Wars. WotC’s efforts with that license failed, but they crushed their main competitor in the CCG market.

Magic’s appeal is in its accessibility. Sets are always available. Players are always available. Tournaments are easy to find and supported by WotC. It has a thriving secondary market. You can play it on console and PC. It’s an OK game that is easy to learn to play.

Any competitive game needs to have those traits to thrive long-term. With Destiny, FFG fails across the board. Sets don’t come out on time. Poor OP support. It isn’t the game. It’s the company’s lack of vision for supporting the players looking for a competitive game.

5 hours ago, gokubb said:

It’s the company’s lack of vision for supporting the players looking for a competitive game.

Players are fantastic, we have a very nice community, and content creators that care about the game and take on a wide variety of subjects.

So the fact that the company doesn't have a clue is just killing us.

I definitely agree with those who say that Magic is the most popular because it was the first, and now it's just everywhere. It's an ok game, but plenty of better games have failed along the way, because they just don't have the established fan base. If it wasn't already established, well known, and available everywhere, it wouldn't survive as a new game in the current marketplace.

I honestly believe Destiny is a better game, mechanically, than Magic. It has it's problems, mostly in the balancing of the early expansions, but the bigger issues have to do with the company and distribution, not the game itself.

4 hours ago, Fromper said:

I definitely agree with those who say that Magic is the most popular because it was the first, and now it's just everywhere. It's an ok game, but plenty of better games have failed along the way, because they just don't have the established fan base. If it wasn't already established, well known, and available everywhere, it wouldn't survive as a new game in the current marketplace.

I honestly believe Destiny is a better game, mechanically, than Magic. It has it's problems, mostly in the balancing of the early expansions, but the bigger issues have to do with the company and distribution, not the game itself.

I don't really believe this at all, though I understand that this has been the mantra when speaking to "why" Magic The Gathering is so popular. Simply put, its popular because people love it, they seek it out, they think its an awesome game. What your suggesting is that there is a mass market out there that plays a game they don't like simply because its available and more accessible? I have known many gamers over the last 30 years of participating in this hobby across all platforms, genres and types. You would be hard pressed to name a genre of gaming I have not had a hand in and in all that time, I have never once met a single gamer who wasn't super opinionated and extremely picky about what he is willing to play or not. I have never met someone who shrugs there shoulders and says "ok fine, I will spend hundreds of dollars on this game because that's what everyone is playing". If people like that exists anywhere in the world, I haven't met one.

I think the reality is that Magic The Gathering is a challenging hobby game that caters to the mindsets of collectors, to deep strategic players, to the creative "builders" and to the casuals all at the same time. It has several different formats, has been marketed well both in the paper and digital world (noteably a honest digital representation not the kind of stuff FFG is doing with for Lord of the Rings LCG where they do "based on stuff").

I do agree with you that Wizards of the Coasts does a far better job of supporting their CCG, but that is true about all of their games, that is just a good habit of the company. But I also believe they are the kings of their markets because they produce really great games.

On 10/23/2018 at 5:11 PM, Mep said:

I don't think FFG knows these short of games require a lot of game support, pretty much monthly if not weekly, to keep people coming out. They think once every 4 months is fine. So yeah, this game has died for a lot of people. Too bad.

I disagree. You don't flood the card pool with cards every month/week; Yu Gi Oh does this and they get cards banned and nerf'd on a regular because things come out to fast, which means they're not play tested enough or have other errors. I think every 4 months (or even longer) is a good idea. The problem is they don't put any money into marketing the product and trying to get them into more stores. It's Star Wars, so all they need is a few good tv ads. Yes most people stream and they're on youtube, search the web, but a good tv commercial can go a long way.

7 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I don't really believe this at all, though I understand that this has been the mantra when speaking to "why" Magic The Gathering is so popular. Simply put, its popular because people love it, they seek it out, they think its an awesome game. What your suggesting is that there is a mass market out there that plays a game they don't like simply because its available and more accessible? I have known many gamers over the last 30 years of participating in this hobby across all platforms, genres and types. You would be hard pressed to name a genre of gaming I have not had a hand in and in all that time, I have never once met a single gamer who wasn't super opinionated and extremely picky about what he is willing to play or not. I have never met someone who shrugs there shoulders and says "ok fine, I will spend hundreds of dollars on this game because that's what everyone is playing". If people like that exists anywhere in the world, I haven't met one.

I think the reality is that Magic The Gathering is a challenging hobby game that caters to the mindsets of collectors, to deep strategic players, to the creative "builders" and to the casuals all at the same time. It has several different formats, has been marketed well both in the paper and digital world (noteably a honest digital representation not the kind of stuff FFG is doing with for Lord of the Rings LCG where they do "based on stuff").

I do agree with you that Wizards of the Coasts does a far better job of supporting their CCG, but that is true about all of their games, that is just a good habit of the company. But I also believe they are the kings of their markets because they produce really great games.

I've played a handful of card games, Android Netrunner, Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon, Duel Masters, Fullmetal Alchemist, Spycraft, Magic... I never got into Magic to be honest, and I don't know anyone that plays Magic. I bought the digital version, I think I have 2 versions of it, but the game mechanics just wasn't fun for me. Duel Masters has a similar style to Magic and I prefer Duel Masters more; I had more fun with it.

2 hours ago, Kaijudo said:

I've played a handful of card games, Android Netrunner, Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon, Duel Masters, Fullmetal Alchemist, Spycraft, Magic... I never got into Magic to be honest, and I don't know anyone that plays Magic. I bought the digital version, I think I have 2 versions of it, but the game mechanics just wasn't fun for me. Duel Masters has a similar style to Magic and I prefer Duel Masters more; I had more fun with it.

Perfectly reasonable, but the question is would you be willing to drop 200 bucks to buy and play Magic because other people like it? I would assume probably not which is kind of the point here. People who like it, buy it and play it, those that don’t, they don’t. There isn’t some magical consumer base that buys and plays Magic keeping Wizards of the coast on top but actually dislike the game. That sort of assumption is kind of ridiculous to me.

There is a vast consumer base out there that loves the game, it’s why it sells well and why it’s on top. It’s not some sort of trick Wizard of the Coast has pulled on the consumer base where people play it because their marketing is so amazing.

2 hours ago, Kaijudo said:

I've played a handful of card games, Android Netrunner, Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon, Duel Masters, Fullmetal Alchemist , Spycraft, Magic... I never got into Magic to be honest, and I don't know anyone that plays Magic. I bought the digital version, I think I have 2 versions of it, but the game mechanics just wasn't fun for me. Duel Masters has a similar style to Magic and I prefer Duel Masters more; I had more fun with it.

As an aside, shout out to a fellow Fullmetal Alchemist player! I loved that game, it's back and forth gameplay was a big draw, and ultimately one that brought me to Destiny

Anyways more to the topic at hand, I too have played a bit of everything under the sun as far as TCGs go, including Magic. But I especially don't enjoy Magic as a game specifically. I like magic because it's the game most of my friends play(which most games are at their best when your friends play them), because it has a cool story, the color philosophy and how it interacts is cool, and it's a game I have already invested a lot of time and energy into. But compared to it's contemporaries, I think magic is lacking as a game.

It lacks in a few fundamental ways: First, I have never played a game that wasn't a magic clone that had as many non-games as magic. By that I mean, feast or famine hands that absolutely crush your ability to play a real game. Now, they include ways to mitigate that but they generally feel bad(mulligan-ing even has a penalty). Secondly, the color pie is the foundation of magics gameplay but it bakes in tons of weaknesses in every color. Now, I'm all for factions having a strong identity but Reds complete inability to deal with enchantments(for instance) instead of a red way to deal with them is an example of the problems the game has.

Beyond the mechanical, Magic as an organized game has been around so long there are also a crapload of ways to play, not all following the same rules. Now Destiny has 3 official formats(only really 2 now, but soon 3 defined formats), but Magic has Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, EDH, pauper, Tiny Leader, Brawl, Frontier and probably a bunch more that I'm forgetting. So sure, Magic has a lot of enfranchised players but just playing Magic doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Ultimately though the worst is the financial barrier! People complain about the cost of Standard decks in Destiny(2 snoke, 2 force speed, 2 ancients sets you back $300 w/ everything else for a Kylo/Snoke deck for instance), but have you played even little competitive magic? Even optimal Standard decks cost upwards of $400(feel free to go to MTG Goldfish and look up the top Meta decks) and that's magic's cheap format! Modern decks can cost as much as 1500 if you want to play Jeskai! Between the Reserved list and financial speculators you don't want to talk about Legacy or Vintage costs. MTG just costs a LOT to play, and yes you can always play budget but I think that you get more Bang for your Buck as a budget player in Destiny imo. We've had some very competive decks that required few rares and some really spectacular decks in terms of competitive value(looking at you 2 player kit!).

So yeah, I'd say that Destiny is a better game than Magic. Definitely could use the level of support that MtG gets though.

52 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Perfectly reasonable, but the question is would you be willing to drop 200 bucks to buy and play Magic because other people like it? I would assume probably not which is kind of the point here. People who like it, buy it and play it, those that don’t, they don’t. There isn’t some magical consumer base that buys and plays Magic keeping Wizards of the coast on top but actually dislike the game. That sort of assumption is kind of ridiculous to me.

There is a vast consumer base out there that loves the game, it’s why it sells well and why it’s on top. It’s not some sort of trick Wizard of the Coast has pulled on the consumer base where people play it because their marketing is so amazing.

My bad I was speaking more to Fromper's point about Magic's game mechanics.

Yes you're right. I would never spend that much money on it, but if by some chance I had a few friends that just wanted to play casually and they wanted me to put in a little money for boosters or starters for our group I might join in just for the social aspect, but not 200 bucks. I'd go as far as a starter or boosters. So I agree with you to a point.

I just wounder if there are other factors keeping the game going. I know people like to sell cards and make money (its the same with Yu Gi Oh) so I wonder how many of those people keeping the game going are just selling and collecting, because out side of tournament play I don't see anyone playing magic like I did in the 90s. I really don't see anyone playing any card games except Pokemon.

22 minutes ago, Atomisk said:

As an aside, shout out to a fellow Fullmetal Alchemist player! I loved that game, it's back and forth gameplay was a big draw, and ultimately one that brought me to Destiny

High Fives*

Yes it's a awesome fun game. I love it to this day! I still play it on my 3DS lol. Destiny reminds me of a stream lined version of FMA and Spycraft, that's why I like Destiny so much.

6 hours ago, Kaijudo said:

I disagree. You don't flood the card pool with cards every month/week; Yu Gi Oh does this and they get cards banned and nerf'd on a regular because things come out to fast, which means they're not play tested enough or have other errors. I think every 4 months (or even longer) is a good idea. The problem is they don't put any money into marketing the product and trying to get them into more stores. It's Star Wars, so all they need is a few good tv ads. Yes most people stream and they're on youtube, search the web, but a good tv commercial can go a long way.

Yeah, I said support the game, not flood the market with cards. Advertisements, tournament kits, alt art cards people can actually read and also a regular release schedule is all important. I think they did try to push that two player starter and advertised it. I believe target ended up marketing them way down. Advertisements doesn't do much if they aren't going to support a healthy player base to begin with. They need to do both.

37 minutes ago, Mep said:

Yeah, I said support the game, not flood the market with cards. Advertisements, tournament kits, alt art cards people can actually read and also a regular release schedule is all important. I think they did try to push that two player starter and advertised it. I believe target ended up marketing them way down. Advertisements doesn't do much if they aren't going to support a healthy player base to begin with. They need to do both.

When you said Monthly or weekly I assumed you meant releasing cards that fast, sorry for my mistake.

Yeah Gamestop has the game too. I was able to get a two player starter from my local game strop fr only 9 bucks. When you say Star Wars Destiny at Gamestop they say they only have Yu Gi Oh and Pokemon Cards, So I guess they never asked for a restock or FG didn't send them more. My Target didn't have anything either. It's very hard to find big store chains that have the game. There is a disturbance somewhere between FFG and the big retail chains.

12 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I don't really believe this at all, though I understand that this has been the mantra when speaking to "why" Magic The Gathering is so popular. Simply put, its popular because people love it, they seek it out, they think its an awesome game. What your suggesting is that there is a mass market out there that plays a game they don't like simply because its available and more accessible? I have known many gamers over the last 30 years of participating in this hobby across all platforms, genres and types. You would be hard pressed to name a genre of gaming I have not had a hand in and in all that time, I have never once met a single gamer who wasn't super opinionated and extremely picky about what he is willing to play or not. I have never met someone who shrugs there shoulders and says "ok fine, I will spend hundreds of dollars on this game because that's what everyone is playing". If people like that exists anywhere in the world, I haven't met one.

I think the reality is that Magic The Gathering is a challenging hobby game that caters to the mindsets of collectors, to deep strategic players, to the creative "builders" and to the casuals all at the same time. It has several different formats, has been marketed well both in the paper and digital world (noteably a honest digital representation not the kind of stuff FFG is doing with for Lord of the Rings LCG where they do "based on stuff").

I do agree with you that Wizards of the Coasts does a far better job of supporting their CCG, but that is true about all of their games, that is just a good habit of the company. But I also believe they are the kings of their markets because they produce really great games.

Did you even read my post? Where did I ever say that people hate it, but play it anyway? I said Magic is an ok game. If someone has never played a CCG before, and they have even the slightest potential to like any CCG, they'll probably like it. And if they've never tried a CCG before, Magic is likely to be the first one they do try, simply because of its popularity and positioning in the market place. That's my point.

It's not the most popular because of its game play. It's the most popular because it's literally the game that invented the CCG genre, and it thrived 25 years ago due to lack of competition. Nowadays, it's just riding its reputation, along with continued good marketing from WOTC. So it's the entry point to CCGs for a lot of people who have never checked out other CCGs to realize that there are better out there.

12 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I don't really believe this at all, though I understand that this has been the mantra when speaking to "why" Magic The Gathering is so popular. Simply put, its popular because people love it, they seek it out, they think its an awesome game. What your suggesting is that there is a mass market out there that plays a game they don't like simply because its available and more accessible? I have known many gamers over the last 30 years of participating in this hobby across all platforms, genres and types. You would be hard pressed to name a genre of gaming I have not had a hand in and in all that time, I have never once met a single gamer who wasn't super opinionated and extremely picky about what he is willing to play or not. I have never met someone who shrugs there shoulders and says "ok fine, I will spend hundreds of dollars on this game because that's what everyone is playing". If people like that exists anywhere in the world, I haven't met one.

I think the reality is that Magic The Gathering is a challenging hobby game that caters to the mindsets of collectors, to deep strategic players, to the creative "builders" and to the casuals all at the same time. It has several different formats, has been marketed well both in the paper and digital world (noteably a honest digital representation not the kind of stuff FFG is doing with for Lord of the Rings LCG where they do "based on stuff").

I do agree with you that Wizards of the Coasts does a far better job of supporting their CCG, but that is true about all of their games, that is just a good habit of the company. But I also believe they are the kings of their markets because they produce really great games.

To be clear I have not once stated Magic is a bad game, nor have stated that it is an unfun game, nor have I stated that other people playing is the ONLY reason it is number 1. I have simply stated that is a large contributing factor to its number 1 status. The game has problems even games that attempt to imitate magic to draw in some of Magics fan base like Dragon ball and Final Fantasy to even get any of those fans to look at a "magic clone" those "magic clones" have to fix something that is wrong with magic's system, which by definition means that Magic the gathering is not a perfect game.

You also have to remember that if you honestly think that Magic is number 1 because its mechanical design is better than any other game and NO OTHER REASON contributes to its number 1 status that you are also stating that Yugioh is number 2 because of it is the second best mechanical designed and no other factor contributes to its success. We can all agree this is simply not true.

Magic has great card design, but its base system is outdated. To show what I mean I am going to talk about modern day card game design elements from the few games I have played (Magic, Yugioh, Pokemon, Destiny, Ashes, Final Fantasy, Dragon ball, Hearthstone.......) of all the card games I have played there are 3 types of resources systems the first type is ramping resource systems that magic uses, the Second is Static Resource systems like the one you see in Ashes and the final is an action resource system like we see with Yugioh. There are also games that combine these 3 systems to a small degree like Pokemon and Destiny, but I will talk about that in a second.

As mentioned before Magic is a Ramping resource system. It is also the only currently played ramping resource system that has you fill your standard deck with 40% of a card that does nothing but provide those resources. Every modernly created ramping resource system card game has found a way to eliminate this now old and outdated way of handling a ramping system. Magic has mitigated this problem by adding an absurd number of cards that draw or scry to get around the problem that was built into the early system. The game is still fun with some great card design, but the flaws of the game are readily shown by all of its "clones" doing something to fix this problem in addition to actually getting a loyal following of their own. Final Fantasy has 0 ads in america and its web site does not even have UK english and US english separately and yet in my small town I still know people who have picked it up and it is 7 sets in. I know people who do not even know the first thing about Dragon ball picking up the dragon ball super card game because it is a "better magic" based on its base system. Magic is still good, but it is not the best mechanical game. It takes many factors for a game to be number 1 one of those is good mechanics and the other is mass market appeal. The current most popular format of Magic is not even a competitive format, it is EDH which is a casual format created by players that WotC embraced.

2 hours ago, Kaijudo said:

High Fives*

Yes it's a awesome fun game. I love it to this day! I still play it on my 3DS lol. Destiny reminds me of a stream lined version of FMA and Spycraft, that's why I like Destiny so much.

*High Fives Back*

I have the DS game too! I even have my old Edward Elric deck I took to the last worlds at Gencon. I sadly bubbled out of top 8 due to a mistake made from fatigue brought on from me being young and too stupid to rent a room(Instead commuted to the con 2 days in a row from Chicago T.T). But hey, you live you learn right? Never played spycraft though, if it was similar I'll definitely check it out

A lot of people play magic because a lot of people play magic. Not everyone playing magic does so because the like the game. The do like the community. WoC also does a good job supporting that game, some say way too good with all their product releases. The result is a health population of people playing magic which sucks even more people in. There was a low there, for a couple of years in magic, where their was oxygen for other games to breath and get an audience. Magic is once again on the up tick, so there is little room for other games and if a company is going to compete for in this space, the actually need to compete not just throw a game out there and expect it to well.

The issue of Magic being an old outdated game is not relevant though. We can sit here all we want and tell each other that Destiny is a better game, or that there are 8 other games far better than Magic.

Ultimately what we are comparing is the strategies that is employed to sell Magic compared to Destiny.

"The current most popular format of Magic is not even a competitive format, it is EDH which is a casual format created by players that WotC embraced."

I have no idea what EDH is, but this looks very similar to what I would accuse Blizzard of with World of Warcraft - make the game fun and deliver what players enjoy. Perhaps that is what FFG needs to do better...

8 minutes ago, Amanal said:

The issue of Magic being an old outdated game is not relevant though. We can sit here all we want an  d tell each other that Destiny is a better game, or that there are 8 other games far better than Magic.

Ultimately what we are comparing is the strategies that is employed to sell Magic compa  red to Destiny. 

"The current most popular format of Magic is not even a competitive format, it is EDH which is a casual format created by players that WotC embraced."

I have no idea what EDH is, but this looks very similar to what I would accuse Blizzard of with World of Warcraft - make the game fun and deliver what players enjoy. Perh  aps that is  what FFG needs  to do better...

100% they have made the game funner over the course, but they have almost halted any kind of ad support for it in addition its prize support for the game is probably one of the worst in CCG market right now making Competitive Destiny not as appealing to some. There are a lot of problems with Destinies PR set up right now that has very little to do with the game which is going to be hitting a very niche market to begin with.

27 minutes ago, Atomisk said:

*High Fives Back*

I have the DS game too! I even have my old Edward Elric deck I took to the last worlds at Gencon. I sadly bubbled out of top 8 due to a mistake made from fatigue brought on from me being young and too stupid to rent a room(Instead commuted to the con 2 days in a row from Chicago T.T). But hey, you live you learn right? Never played spycraft though, if it was similar I'll definitely check it out

Nice!!!, Yeah the DS game is a lot of fun. I like the unlocked cards mode. I had a Edward Elric deck too! lol.

Wow man, tough break. Yes you live and you learn lol... I never played in any tournaments. I played my old game group. Those were fun times!

Spycraft is great, it's out of print now, but I have a box of cards from the starter set and a box from every faction. If you ever tried OCTNG you can play the game there or you get the card images to make a proxy deck.