1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

but if you cannot ready a one-handed razoredged weapon, then it doesnt work. sure, it isn't written perfectly but at least its written logically. which is better than we can say for a lot of the rest of the book.

for iaijutsu cuts, i think it is clear you cannot do it with 2 handed weapons.

I agree it doesn't work. I fully believe I'll have to bring a heavy object to my gaming group to smack them with when they insist it does, though. It doesn't require as much finagling as the "I Wait in Water stance" debaucle, true.

9 minutes ago, JBento said:

"If you succeed" refers to the test (as an aside, note that you still ready, say, your katana even if you fail the test), not "if you succeed in readying the weapon". Readying the weapon is a thing the technique says happens, regardless of whatever.

Each paragraph is a distinct effect of the action that resolves in order. Failing to resolve the first paragraph prevents resolution of the second. The first paragraph fails to resolve due to bullet point 3 of step 3 on page 252 as you can't meet the "other requirements" of the effect.

1 hour ago, JBento said:

I honestly looked at Wait for the same reasons. Here's how it's PROBABLY intended to work:

Since you need to declare what action you'll take when you declare wait, your Wait ALSO has the types of that action. If the action involves a check, you can't use Wait as the Water bonus action at all.

As written, it occurs AFTER. "When action X occurs, I do Y" means X has to occur.

Your initiative stays the same. You MIGHT get acting twice in a row out of this (especially if the trigger doesn't come about), but you're already taking a big hit by not acting first this round already, so, eh.

PROBABLY intended to work yup, thats l5r rpg for you. I agree with your assessment though. here is the important part to add to the rule; " your Wait action ALSO has the type of the action you intend to perform"

and if the wait action doesnt interrupt anything (not like a cover fire interrupt in Xcom ;)) then yeah, it can be fair to keep initiative order as is. And I think the rule makes it relatively clear that it doesnt interrupt. All good here, will play like that for a while and see.

Though I am still very concerned with the Wait action written as is. "if the specified event doesn't occur you can perform one action of your choice at the end of the turn" opens up abuses like there is no tomorrow... people will start to call event that can't happen and get double actions... I smell the problem from here. Honestly I think I will HAVE to change the "wait" rule...

In NO WAY it is just a support action (needs to have the other keywords of what you intend to perform) and in NO WAY you should be able to do whatever action you want to do at the end of the round if your event didn't happen and keep the initiative order for next round. This is just crazyness, people will start to wait left and right it's going to be a mess.

my book already have at least 20 corrections like that in it so far, that i write with a pencil. And i'm not even changing anything big, i'm just making things clear so that my players don't start to argue

disappointed a bit with the rules clarity in a lot of cases... it is a first edition though, so it give them a bit of slack. Hopefully they release a solid errata/clarification document though.

4 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Each paragraph is a distinct effect of the action that resolves in order. Failing to resolve the first paragraph prevents resolution of the second. The first paragraph fails to resolve due to bullet point 3 of step 3 on page 252.

Fun fact: The second effect doesn't list any requirement other than passing the check, so a TECHNICAL reading means you deal damage even if you never readied the weapon in the first place. Failing to resolve effects doesn't prevent resolution of any effect further down the cascade unless otherwise specified, and the bullet point you mentioned specifically calls out "If you succeed" as referring to tests. As I said, the Activation paragraph is probably missing "a Razor-Edged weapon that you can grip in one hand"

In THIS particular case, I think it's pretty obvious that the whole thing doesn't work if you can't grip the weapon one-handed, but I'd like for the writers to keep an eye on these sorts of things in any cases that might not be so clear. Having like three editors, at minimum, should be mandatory on these sorts of things.

I'm not sure about the Iaijutsu + Naginata deal. Technique Effects specifically overwrite normal conditions, so one might be able to wield a Naginata one-handed despite the weapon only having a two-handed grip. Here is the rule:

Quote

Each technique lists the effects that occur after the character performs the activation. Each paragraph represents a distinct effect. See the Actions section on page 252 for more details on resolving action effects. Effects that begin with " If you succeed" only resolve if the check specified in the activation is successful. Effects that begin with " If you fail" only resolve if the check specified in the activation is unsuccessful. Effects that list alternate conditions for resolution resolve under the stated conditions, and effects that do not list any conditions for resolution always resolve.

I feel like Rising Blade would thus overwrite the normal grip rules.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm not sure about the Iaijutsu + Naginata deal. Technique Effects specifically overwrite normal conditions, so one might be able to wield a Naginata one-handed despite the weapon only having a two-handed grip. Here is the rule:

I feel like Rising Blade would thus overwrite the normal grip rules.

definitely don't agree with that. otherwise you can start to bend a lot of rules this way and it become too slushy and abusable. If you cannot ready a weapon in a one-handed grip, then you cannot perform the technique. no deal from me here.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm not sure about the Iaijutsu + Naginata deal. Technique Effects specifically overwrite normal conditions, so one might be able to wield a Naginata one-handed despite the weapon only having a two-handed grip. Here is the rule:

I feel like Rising Blade would thus overwrite the normal grip rules.

I didn't remember the part you quoted, and I think you bolded the wrong half of that sentence. "You ready the weapon in a one-handed grip" does "not list any conditions for resolution" and therefore should "always resolve", so, as written, you always ready your naginata in a one-handed grip... somehow.

It is an alternate condition for resolution because normally, when resolving weapon readying, you must choose a possible grip. But Rising Blade has an alternate condition, namely that the grip is going to be one-handed no matter what.

17 minutes ago, JBento said:

Fun fact: The second effect doesn't list any requirement other than passing the check, so a TECHNICAL reading means you deal damage even if you never readied the weapon in the first place. Failing to resolve effects doesn't prevent resolution of any effect further down the cascade unless otherwise specified, and the bullet point you mentioned specifically calls out "If you succeed" as referring to tests. As I said, the Activation paragraph is probably missing "a Razor-Edged weapon that you can grip in one hand"

In THIS particular case, I think it's pretty obvious that the whole thing doesn't work if you can't grip the weapon one-handed, but I'd like for the writers to keep an eye on these sorts of things in any cases that might not be so clear. Having like three editors, at minimum, should be mandatory on these sorts of things.

Reread.

Step 3: Resolve effects

Then, the character resolves the effect of the action. Each paragraph in the "effects" section of the action denotes a single, distinct effect. An action's effects resolve in the order they appear in the action. Some effects are conditional, as described below.

• If an effect begins with "If you succeed," resolve it only if the character succeeded on the check.

• If an effect begins with "If you fail," resolve it only if the character failed on the check.

• If an effect lists any other requirements, those requirements must be met for it to resolve.

Just now, AtoMaki said:

It is an alternate condition for resolution because normally, when resolving weapon readying, you must choose a possible grip. But Rising Blade has an alternate condition, namely that the grip is going to be one-handed no matter what.

Oh, I see, I was reading conditions as prereqs ("happens under these conditions") and not states ("happens in these conditions"). Thanks.

1 minute ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Reread.

Don't have to - readying the weapon has no requirement (it doesn't say "ready in one-hand grip if possible", just "ready"), and dealing damage has passing the check as the only requirement. It doesn't even say "the readied weapon" in the second paragraph, so technically you even deal the damage if you don't ready the weapon. Which is just another layer of crazy.

18 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm not sure about the Iaijutsu + Naginata deal. Technique Effects specifically overwrite normal conditions, so one might be able to wield a Naginata one-handed despite the weapon only having a two-handed grip. Here is the rule:

I feel like Rising Blade would thus overwrite the normal grip rules.

There is not specific replaces general rule in the RPG. Do not confuse the LCG with the RPG.

Just now, JBento said:

Don't have to - readying the weapon has no requirement (it doesn't say "ready in one-hand grip if possible", just "ready"), and dealing damage has passing the check as the only requirement. It doesn't even say "the readied weapon" in the second paragraph, so technically you even deal the damage if you don't ready the weapon. Which is just another layer of crazy.

You can not resolve the first effect if you can not ready the weapon in a one-handed grip. As you can not resolve the first effect you can not proceed to the second effect so the action fails.

yeah you guys are arguing about something that is more clear than literally 75% of the rest of the book

Just now, Ultimatecalibur said:

There is not specific replaces general rule in the RPG. Do not confuse the LCG with the RPG.

If it does not replace it then it is still fine because as per the rule in the 'Readied Weapons' you must choose an available grip when readying the weapon. So if you Rising Blade with a naginata then you ready it in a two-handed grip despite the listed effect.

Note that readying the weapon in a one-handed grip is an effect and not a condition. There is no condition in the description regarding grip availability.

I'm actually with this. You ready the naginata in a two-handed grip with Rising Blade. If somebody argues against it, then remind them that you can switch grip when you ready the weapon, so you ready in a one-handed grip as per the Technique then immediately switch to two-handed - everyone is happy.

1 minute ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

You can not resolve the first effect if you can not ready the weapon in a one-handed grip. As you can not resolve the first effect you can not proceed to the second effect so the action fails.

Sure I can, which is the issue. As AtoMaki pointed out, readying a naginata in a 1-handed grip is "an alternate condition of resolution", so it happens anyway, somehow. Don't ask me, I don't intend to try it, allow it, and I neither wrote or proofed the book.

Regardless, the second part is patently false. Effects are independent. Just because you fail to resolve the first effect in a series, it doesn't mean you fail the second, unless the second specifically says the first has to succeed. Somehow, you deal damage even if you don't ready the weapon, which, as written, you can't fail to do... somehow.

facepalm.

just remove/rwork the broken "wait" action from the book, its a much more important matter than knowing if you can iaijutsu cut with a naginata if you are the drummer of def leppard. which you clearly CANT.

8 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

If it does not replace it then it is still fine because as per the rule in the 'Readied Weapons' you must choose an available grip when readying the weapon. So if you Rising Blade with a naginata then you ready it in a two-handed grip despite the listed effect.

Note that readying the weapon in a one-handed grip is an effect and not a condition. There is no condition in the description regarding grip availability.

I'm actually with this. You ready the naginata in a two-handed grip with Rising Blade. If somebody argues against it, then remind them that you can switch grip when you ready the weapon, so you ready in a one-handed grip as per the Technique then immediately switch to two-handed - everyone is happy.

"One-handed grip" is the condition of the grip. Stop trying to rule lawyer this stupidity.

7 minutes ago, JBento said:

Regardless, the second part is patently false. Effects are independent. Just because you fail to resolve the first effect in a series, it doesn't mean you fail the second, unless the second specifically says the first has to succeed. Somehow, you deal damage even if you don't ready the weapon, which, as written, you can't fail to do... somehow. 

No. Effects are not independent. They are Resolved in order. You can not skip effects. Failing to Resolve any effect causes the action to fail to Resolve.

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

facepalm.

just remove/rwork the broken "wait" action from the book, its a much more important matter than knowing if you can iaijutsu cut with a naginata if you are the drummer of def leppard. which you clearly CANT.

Unfortunately, the book not only says I can but if I start the Technique (which I can, because the only prerequisite is that the weapon be Razor-Edged), I HAVE TO. You cannot, in fact, fail to ready the weapon in a 1-handed grip (it's not conditional to you passing the check).

4 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

"One-handed grip" is the condition of the grip. Stop trying to rule lawyer this stupidity.

No. Effects are not independent. They are Resolved in order. You can not skip effects. Failing to Resolve any effect causes the action to fail to Resolve.

yeah its like if a shuji says in the "effect" that you scream. well if your dude is mute or have a gag ball and cant scream then you cannot do that technique. lets be logical and fair here please. I feel you are just trolling at this point JBento.

5 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

No. Effects are not independent. They are Resolved in order. You can not skip effects. Failing to Resolve any effect causes the action to fail to Resolve.

From page 172, "each paragraph is a distinct effect." Just because they're resolved in order and you can't skip them, doesn't mean you need a success cascade. In fact, it can't for at least some effects.

Take Jade Strike from page 199 - the first paragraph/effect is "If you succeed and your target is an Otherwordly Being, then X". If the target ISN'T an OWB, then the effect fails to resolve, which according that logic, would mean you don't proceed to the second paragraph. Unfortunately, the second paragraph is "If you succeed and your target isn't an Otherwordly Being, then Y", which can't be true if the first paragraph is, and vice versa. Therefore, paragraphs needs to be resolved independently.

4 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

"One-handed grip" is the condition of the grip. Stop trying to rule lawyer this stupidity.

Again, it is not a condition. There is no rule against wielding a weapon in a non-existing grip because normally, you can choose only between the available grips.

And it is not as stupid as you think. Rising Blade is a stupid, but Crossing Blade has some good synergy with the naginata and can be very useful for a fluffy naginata duelist character.

9 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

yeah its like if a shuji says in the "effect" that you scream. well if your dude is mute or have a gag ball and cant scream then you cannot do that technique. lets be logical and fair here please. I feel you are just trolling at this point JBento.

Problem: the book says that the prereqs for you to do a technique are in the Activation paragraph(s).

AAAAAAANYWAY, I think the "Iaijutsu with 2-grip weapons" back and forth will be met with no resolution here, so I think we should wait till we get errata from FFG and see, and stop hogging the thread.

ETA: Is there a way to send a question directly to FFG? D&D has a ticket system for stuff like this, but I dunno if holds true here.

10 minutes ago, JBento said:

ETA: Is there a way to send a question directly to FFG? D&D has a ticket system for stuff like this, but I dunno if holds true here.

lol, good thing the product is niche, because the way its done right now its broken a lot. they basically need a reprint. having a ticket system will be overwhelming