Emirikol said:

There will always going to be an elf box... there will never be one, but it will always be planned

First, some good news. The upcoming section has just shifted Winds of Magic into the "At the Printer" section.

A few responses, in no particular order.

1) Half the playable races are some kind of elf. They deserve to be as fully developed as any other player race. This is just common sense.

2) Previous editions of Warhammer had magician careers in the starting book that elves could enter.

3) Yes, this isn't D&D. If I was complaining about how elves sucked in [edition here]D&D that would be relevant. This is Warhammer. 2 out of 4 player races are elves. Warhammer elves make talented magicians. They don't have prejudices against magicians. Their magical skills are widely known and respected. While some of their magicians use high magic, others use colour magic. So where are their magical careers?

4) I do allow elves to use the wizard careers, as a stop gap.

5) In general, I'm happy with how Fantasy Flight has handled the nonhumans. Previously editions were mostly "here's a bunch of human careers, nonhumans can join most of them, and here's the Slayers and one or two other minor ones specifically for one race." I like that Ironbreakers, Swordmasters, and Wardancers have been included so early. I'm fine with the game being Empire and mostly human centric. The lack of Elf wizards is just a really glaring hole. Runesmiths I can understand being put off, as that opens the whole "magic item building" can of worms.

So if everybody is writening there speculations about the new supplement so will I.

So this is my little wish list about The Winds Of Magic and what I would like to see in it:

- now we know there will be a lot o spells but will there be some more new magic carrers (I hope yes)

- there will be Tzeentch but I hope there will be more demons not only those of The Great Conspirator

- when I look at the cover I see a Chaos Mage and a Elven Mage so I hope the new supplement will cover this (Chaos Magic and some Elves Carrers with spells)

- Some time ago in one of the dairies where were shown cards with Orc Shaman magic and some Beastman magic (so I hope this one is also included it this supplemet) - if you don't believe me see for your self ( http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=1088 - Behind The Design)

- one more thing I hope there will be more then one book in it (I don't like when players are reading the GM section or some forbitten information only for GM, besides they don't really must know about all the dangerous of magic nad demons, do they? ;p)

I think that this new expansion really will be worth buying.

If they got elven and chaos magic in there, I'm pretty sure those would be action cards for NPC's only. FFG never mentioned adding careers to this box and they rarely skip any type of components when they list a box's content.

Yer something like career cards would be on the content list.

Iffo said:

Ummm they haven't announced the components of this box either yet.

Well, it's been playtested for a while, so I'm not surprised it's "At the printers".

The article mentions spells for all 8 colleges of magic ... so it's reasonable to expect that the remaining colleges of magic are included. While not exactly 'new careers', they might feel like it.

Keep in mind that WFRP3 is still pretty new and Core-Centric. I wouldn't be surprised at some new demons and other magical opponents, but I wouldn't expect Greater Demons like a Changer of Ways, as those would be far beyond the level of the current available character careers. (I could be wrong, of course).

@ Cynical Cat

1) Half the playable races are some kind of elf. They deserve to be as fully developed as any other player race. This is just common sense.

I Disagree. PCs are in the Empire, and it even states that non-humans are pretty rare. In every version of WFRP this has been the case. I really don't expect elves and dwarves to have as many options as humans, at least at this early stage of the game. As I've said before, Elven Magic (and elven magical culture, etc) is much different than human. Elven apprentices might use the same 8 winds of magic early in their careers, but chances are slim that they use them in the same ways with the same spells. So, this would require a *lot* of work to provide all the information about elven magic and elven spellcasting careers. (Same with dwarven runesmiths too). Thus, this is more likely to be its own expansion in the future (or an elf book, or another 'magic' supplement, etc). It's too soon to try to lump this elven stuff in with the human magic. Human stuff first, non-human stuff afterwards. Right now, they need to finish the human college magic (and give some Chaos magic for GMs to use against the PCs) before they should even consider working out elf magic stuff. This also answers your #3.

dvang said:

I disagree with disagree

It may be stated, that non-humans are rare, but that doesn't change the simple fact: HALF of playable races are ELVES, and 3/4 are NON-HUMANS.

Some player's not only want to play as an elf, but actually want to play as an elf WIZARD.

Yes, I can houserule it, but that doesn't feel good enough, until its official.

I can agree on the number of options, but Elven Magic does not consist only of High Magic.

It is different, yes, and of course (and fortunately) Elven apprientices can use the 8 winds, and as far as I remember what I read in WFB High Elves rulebook, they actually start with learning, and mastering the 8 colors (with fire being first, and some of the apprientices leave at this point in search for a dragon and a way to become a dragon mage), and only then are allowed to start to learn High Magic.

So I do not expect the "Winds of Magic" to have any High Magic spells, or rules.

I DO EXPECT however, some rules, and background on how elves (both high, and wood) use magic, along with some tips on how to use existing magic professions and spells in case of an elf, and maybe some unique career ability cards for elven wizards.

Sunatet said:

I disagree with the fact you disagree with... etc.

3/4 of non-humans playable races does not mean 3/4 of pcs will statistically be non-humans. Look at the random chart for choosing races in the character creation chapter - it should gives you a more precise idea of the way those 4 races should be statistically spread among pcs in order to be consistent to the setting.

Every player race deserves adequate support and adequate support consists of careers containing the skills they're known for. With dwarves that's skilled labor, not dying despite taking obscene punishment, and hitting people with big axes and hammers. Elves that's bows, swords, and magic. As for numbers, well an online poll would be useless but my group is 60% elvish and no dwarves and you don't hear me saying that dwarf careers shouldn't be supported.

Colour magic is colour magic, whether practiced by elves or men and there are plenty of elven colour magicians in Warhammer's background. Dragon obsessed pyromancers using Bright, shadowy scouts using Grey, and Wood Elf shamans using Jade or Amber come easily to mind. That's without touching on the whole issue of High and Battle Magic.

jfmongrain said:

Then I disagree, with Your disagree to my disagree with Dvang disagree.

I never tell a player to roll his race, if he comes to me with a good promising bacground and interesting idea, he gets to play what he chooses.

So if all players want to play as elves and they can convince me it will be interesting and fun, so be it.

Besides players are one thing, but I as a GM am another.

I also want to be able to create elf wizards.

I would like to see them as NPCs, and no random race table will have anything to do with it.

And as I said, I don't necessarily need a high magic now, but some magic for elves, and some rules is a MUST dammit.

They are amongst the most magically skilled races in Warhammer universe.

And don't forget, that not all people play in one small province of the empire (but I know, that there are people that do so for 20+ years now, and don't even think of going even one step further, I respect that, their choice).

Warhammer world is a big world, and I want it all.

Willmanx's houserule for High Elf mages : I read the High Elf supplement from Warhammer Battle : A high elf mage begins to learn every magic color in the White Tower of Saphery (Ulthuan Island)... When he is confirmed, he may mix them and use the High Magic.

• A high elf mage is a beginner gone to the old world to practice what he learned in the White Tower magic "school".
• For convenience, he may use the color college career cards restricted to humans,
• but he is not limited to 1 color as High elves mages know every colors and more...
• True Elf High Magic is limited to his powerful NPC teachers.

Willmanx's houserule for Wood Elf mages : Wood elf magic is somewhat a mix of Shallya blessing and Jade Color (not available yet)... Confirmed Wood elf wizards then are able to invoke dryades (spirits of the forest).

• A wood elf mage is a beginner gone outside the forest to discover what the world is made of. He's a student.
• For convenience, he may use the color College career cards restricted to human.
• He is limited to Jade Color (not yet available in V3), and he may also use Shallya's blessings, even if he's not in a priest's career progression.
• True Dryade invocation is limited to his powerful NPC teachers.

Sunatet said:

Oh, yes - for a change, I agree with most of what you say. ;-)

But I think they had to choose, if only for practical reasons, what to put out first. And it's logical they first cover humans as they are statistically the most common race, the one most of your player should be would you to follow the basic guidelines and the one most of your npcs should be if you play in the empire. (but hey, you are right, it's fun to play something else, and the old world is big.)

I don't say it should not be covered, only that it's not the priority if you follow the basic assumption of the setting (human centric, Empire based), an assumption that is, as a matter of fact, an arbitrary choice. But they had to make such a choice, and I tend to agree with this choice. As I would say it's more consistent to publish something about dwarves and elves before something about lizardmens and the other continent, I say it's logical, following the initial decision to have the Empire as the default setting, to publish about humans before dwarves and elves.

@ Sunatet

As jfmongrain said ... I am not disagreeing that elves should get rules and careers for magic. However, in the infancy of WRFP3 I don't see them as an early priority. There are plenty of other things to add to the game before an 'advanced' concept of non-human magic. For instance, the rest of the human colleges of magic (coming in the magic supplement), the rest of the priestly cults, and so on. I expect at some point Elves and dwarves will get a good looking at, including magic. They need to (and probably will) fully flesh out humans and the Empire first, however.

I'd prefer the non-human magics left for their own supplement so it can be handled in detail. Elves (high/dark/wood), Dwarves, Orcs, Skaven. The Ruinous Powers are so closely tied to humans and their dabbling/messing around with that it makes sense they're included with human magic, but the rest could have their own. (heck, that's six 'races' alone in one supplement!)

And I disagree in general with everyone not agreeing with me, and even those who agree with me, I tend to disagree with

uhm back to your interesting discussion.

It would be better if they treated non-human magic in other sourcebooks (eh boxes) like a dwarfen box or elf box. Which I think this edition need, and its needed now. the previous edition had no sourcebooks about elves or dwarves. maybe FFG should do a combo box.

I let the group roll on random races, once for each player, than they decide between them who should be what. so far it have worked nicely.

good gaming.

and ooh I would like to have a detuction on my salary that goes directly to FFG, so I could get whfrp products faster. like 20% of income. Or a lifetime membership. I would love that. maybe I could write it of for tax reduction. No really FFG stands for a work union that I belong to. I am organized. hmm that would be swell, well enough rambling.