I read the latest article and ****, this game looks very crunchy, which admittedly, disappointed me. GeneSys is as crunchy as I like, but L5R looks crunchier. Am I correct? How easy will it be to GM? I dislike fiddling with a ton of bits, especially for NPCs. I’m a very improvisational GM, so will it hamper that?

I wouldnt considernit any more crunch than genesys. There is no more crunch in techniques than you get in talents.

Yeah if you play genesys you'll be fine I'm hoping (I played Force and Destiny not Genesys but basically the same I think). And honestly my group hand waved a ton of the rules with no worries, which I expect will be the case with l5r. Cruch is totally there for those who want it, but I haven't felt it move any more slowly in the beta test I'm running.

3 hours ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

I read the latest article and ****, this game looks very crunchy, which admittedly, disappointed me. GeneSys is as crunchy as I like, but L5R looks crunchier. Am I correct? How easy will it be to GM? I dislike fiddling with a ton of bits, especially for NPCs. I’m a very improvisational GM, so will it hamper that?

No, it's not as crunchy. Fewer rules interactions per combat round, and a simpler and more consistent general system.

The system becomes comfortable quickly, and the abilities are more streamlined and similarly worded to each other, so it's easier to adjudicate. The different special abilities (School abilities, Techniques, Kiho, Ninjutsu, Spells, Rituals) all work pretty much the same way, only who can get them differs a lot. Spells do have a (ALITβ) mishap rule and tend to be the most complex.

ALL of the advantages and drawbacks work the same 2 ways: Distinction: if it applies, you reroll up to 2 dice of your choice, keeping the new roll. Adversity: if it applies, you reroll up to 2 dice of your opponent's choice, keeping the new roll. Passion, if it applies, ignore 3 strife on the roll. Anxiety, if it applies, take 3 extra strife. If you volunteer your passion or distinction as a disad, and the GM agrees, gain a void point; if an adversity or anxiety would help as a distinction or passion, flip it for 1 void.

The various special abilities tend to mostly be either add 1-2 new opportunity spends, or a specific attack for either damage or imposing some condition. Some, especially some spells, aren't.

The Togashi school one is priceless: Theology task to get advice from Togashi-kami. This may be about the day, or about the universe, but it's useful AND vague! I've steered three togashi characters via it. It's great fun... for the GM.

While there are more range bands on character scale (7 vs 6), they're more useful, and there's no higher scale.

4 hours ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

I dislike fiddling with a ton of bits, especially for NPCs.

NPCs follows the Genesys approach; there are minons and there are adversaries.

Minions basically ignore most of the rules in favour of being automatically rendered unconscious or killed when incapacitated, and only being allowed to spend opportunities on the one thing (maybe) that they have in their own entry, rather than the full range of techniques and tables that PCs have.

They're a touch more dangerous than Genesys/SWRPG minions, but frankly not much . The rules for assistance are nice and simple (essentially, add one dice and keep one extra dice for every mook after the first in a mob), and the 'add bonus successes to damage' handles fighting as a squad automatically and strife works to provide a nice simple morale rule.

The techniques look convoluted but aren't actually that bad. Striking as air is wordy - because it's trying to describe the rule sufficiently 'mechanistically' that there's no confusion about it - but it basically just says "if you make an attack, you can hang on to some good dice results and substitute them into your next attack roll instead of rolling the dice normally"

"Too crunchy" is much like "too spicy". Some people like a lot. Others, like me, just cry ?

Like @Alderaan Crumbs , as a GM, I find the NPCs a bit daunting because of all the different technique OP spends. Fortunately, there's a bunch of templates to combine in straightforward ways. But I'm gonna have to spend some time copying/organizing that info in a way that I can use lightning fast, because I don't know like 90% of NPC's stats until someone tries to hit them.

1 hour ago, sidescroller said:

"Too crunchy" is much like "too spicy". Some people like a lot. Others, like me, just cry ?

Like @Alderaan Crumbs , as a GM, I find the NPCs a bit daunting because of all the different technique OP spends. Fortunately, there's a bunch of templates to combine in straightforward ways. But I'm gonna have to spend some time copying/organizing that info in a way that I can use lightning fast, because I don't know like 90% of NPC's stats until someone tries to hit them.

I imagine you'll get adversary decks at some point soon.

At the risk of seeming rude, allow me to respond to everyone, as I’m on my tablet and clipping quotes is daunting. I really appreciate everyone responding with such detail; it’s pretty much quashed my concerns. I did have another question, if it can be answered: Can/will characters be dealing with a ton of abilities they need to address and possibly use together, and if so will they be as easily managed as talents in GeneSys (also, I use the GeneSys and Star Wars system’s interchangeably, for rules reference purposes)?

3 hours ago, sidescroller said:

"Too crunchy" is much like "too spicy". Some people like a lot. Others, like me, just cry ?

Like @Alderaan Crumbs , as a GM, I find the NPCs a bit daunting because of all the different technique OP spends. Fortunately, there's a bunch of templates to combine in straightforward ways. But I'm gonna have to spend some time copying/organizing that info in a way that I can use lightning fast, because I don't know like 90% of NPC's stats until someone tries to hit them.

MOAR SPICE

What I've done for the non-minion NPCs in my game is just pick Clan/Family/School, and that's it (so far). If there's something thematically appropriate for them to have (I wanted one to be an awesome archer), then I give them a bonus skill rank there. I know I'm leaving out things that would be important if I were creating an actual character (such as their further Ring bonus for how they stand out), and if the NPC ever becomes sufficiently important, then I will do so.

This method lets me pretty much generate an NPC on the fly: "Kitsuki Jitoshi enters the field!" *checks page on Beta Update 4.0 for clan/family bonus, flips to Mirumoto Bushi file, done*

9 hours ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

I read the latest article and ****, this game looks very crunchy, which admittedly, disappointed me. GeneSys is as crunchy as I like, but L5R looks crunchier. Am I correct? How easy will it be to GM? I dislike fiddling with a ton of bits, especially for NPCs. I’m a very improvisational GM, so will it hamper that?

I don't see the techniques as much different from Genesys talents. It just modifies how the dice mechanics work specifically for that one character. Is there much of a difference that I am not seeing?

1 hour ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

At the risk of seeming rude, allow me to respond to everyone, as I’m on my tablet and clipping quotes is daunting. I really appreciate everyone responding with such detail; it’s pretty much quashed my concerns. I did have another question, if it can be answered: Can/will characters be dealing with a ton of abilities they need to address and possibly use together, and if so will they be as easily managed as talents in GeneSys (also, I use the GeneSys and Star Wars system’s interchangeably, for rules reference purposes)?

Simultaneous use? Less so.

Techniques can be pretty much broken down into the following:

• When they can be used
  • Most techniques are specifically for conflict scenes, but a lot are limited to use in one or two specific types of conflict (Intrigue, Duel, Skirmish, Battle). Shujii (the courtier techniques) for example are mostly only available in intrigues.
• What stance they require
  • Yes, a well-rounded, high level duellist (as in 'knight-level play' in SWRPG) might realistically have Striking As Air, Striking As Fire, Striking As Earth and Striking As Water as available kata techniques. But because each of them says "when you perform a Martial Arts (Melee) check in [associated stance]", you'll never be using more than one of them at once. A lot of the techniques are stance-restricted (and access to them is a big part of why you might change stance mid-fight, or use a stance associated with not-your-best-ring).
• What triggers them
  • Techniques are, broadly, either an action or an opportunity.
    • Action-techniques (like Bind the Shadow) essentially replace a normal Strike action (or whatever) with a custom, arguably better, version with unique benefits or lessened restrictions (iaijutsu allows you to attack at a slightly longer range than a weapon like a katana would normally permit, and allows - in fact requires - you to strike with a sheathed rather than readied weapon). They're the equivalent of 'perfom a [name] action' or 'perform a [name] manoeuvre' talents in SWRPG, like Full Throttle
    • Opportunity techniques (like Pelting Hail Style) add more options to the list of things you can spend opportunities on, similar to a lot of career-tree abilities in SWRPG that give you stuff to spend advantage on (like Overwhelm Defences)
  • Since you can only ever be doing one action at once, you never find yourself needing to do track multiple action techniques. You might find multiple opportunity techniques available at once, but rarely will you get enough opportunity to trigger more than one enough to justify doing so - because, for example, if I got enough opportunity on a melee strike to trigger three or four opportunities, I also have enough to trigger a critical strike [**] and increase the effective deadliness of my Katana [* per point of deadliness], and hence at that point my opponent isn't 'stunned', 'prone', 'dazed' or whatever, he or she is 'looking for their head in the gutter'...

The number of techniques is not generally any higher than the number of talents a SWRPG player of comparable awesomeness might have. Enough to be worth writing them out on the character sheet (or getting technique 'flashcards' so you can have the 2 or 3 techniques relevant at any given moment in front of you)

Yes, there's a degree of subdivision (Kata, Shuji, Invocations, Rituals, Maho, Ninjitsu), but that's because - rather than every career having a 'progression tree' where you can take those and only those options, at Rank 1 your school will say you may buy "Rank 1 Air Kata" or whatever, and that's how career options are divided up.

Will the Beginner Game be enough to get a solid bite on the level of complexity? If so I may grab it.

Edit: After reading another thread about the Beginner Game I noticed two complaints.

1) Ranges are difficult to use. It seems they’re like GeneSys range bands. Am I correct?

2) What trips people up so much about Rings?

38 minutes ago, Alderaan Crumbs said:

Will the Beginner Game be enough to get a solid bite on the level of complexity? If so I may grab it.

Edit: After reading another thread about the Beginner Game I noticed two complaints.

1) Ranges are difficult to use. It seems they’re like GeneSys range bands. Am I correct?

2) What trips people up so much about Rings?

The Beginner Game is nice, at least to get in touch with the system (and you get a nice map and the dice) but you wont get a sense of the level of complexity. Its barely the core of the system, with basic rules for tests, basic equipment, and no techniques/schools at all (the basic techniques for the characters are in the character sheets and the shugenja doesnt even have spells). No rules for creation, no rules for magic, no advancement rules, etc.

- Ranges. As someone who intensively played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd Edition from FFG I hate range bands with a passion. It kinda works when there's 2 parties but when there are multiple parties to track its a mess. You need X and Y axis. Basically I will convert ranges to distances and will make a grid system (hoping FFG does it for me tbh). Like 80% of my combat scenes are narrative, but sometimes, when I get a lot of ppl in the scene and there are tactical objectives (like release these ppl, capture this guy etc) , I like to know where everyone is.

- My concern with the rings is (1) the description for them are vague (its like they are the result of the fusion of the old attributes, but not explicitly said that way), and (2) they could be abused in certain ways... Like you use the ring that describes your approach (way) when doing something. I strike with vigour/passion so I use Fire. I strike blindly using my intuition so I use Void. Etc. Ok... So there is nothing stopping a player from doing everything "with passion" and thus rolling always his Fire (and normally highest ring). Ofc you can as a GM state that a certain approach (ring) is better for a roll and set a lower TN for that approach, so its not as bad as it seems, but stil there are players that will go with all my XP on this Ring and roll it every time.

20 minutes ago, Shosur0 said:

The Beginner Game is nice, at least to get in touch with the system (and you get a nice map and the dice) but you wont get a sense of the level of complexity. Its barely the core of the system, with basic rules for tests, basic equipment, and no techniques/schools at all (the basic techniques for the characters are in the character sheets and the shugenja doesnt even have spells). No rules for creation, no rules for magic, no advancement rules, etc.

Actually Isawa Aki (the Shugenja) does have access to spell techniques during the second half of the adventure. After the players reach the intermission they receive 4 experience points and can spend them in various ways. One of them being learning new techniques that were not previously on their character sheets. One of the spells is creating a large gust of wind dealing 2 damage to everybody within a certain radius around you. I can't remember what the 2nd one was off the top of my head.

Edit: Even the pre-intermission character sheets have school abilities and advantages, so I'm not sure where you're getting your info from.

20 minutes ago, Shosur0 said:

- My concern with the rings is (1) the description for them are vague (its like they are the result of the fusion of the old attributes, but not explicitly said that way), and (2) they could be abused in certain ways... Like you use the ring that describes your approach (way) when doing something. I strike with vigour/passion so I use Fire. I strike blindly using my intuition so I use Void. Etc. Ok... So there is nothing stopping a player from doing everything "with passion" and thus rolling always his Fire (and normally highest ring). Ofc you can as a GM state that a certain approach (ring) is better for a roll and set a lower TN for that approach, so its not as bad as it seems, but stil there are players that will go with all my XP on this Ring and roll it every time.

Right so how is this a problem? If a player builds a character having their fire ring as their strength and they wish to keep rolling attacks in the fire stance then as a GM you should let them. That is their freedom/decision as a player. They probably won't be as good as using the other rings when making necessary checks for certain approaches, but that is the consequence of being a Fire berserker.

34 minutes ago, Shosur0 said:

- My concern with the rings is (1) the description for them are vague (its like they are the result of the fusion of the old attributes, but not explicitly said that way), and (2) they could be abused in certain ways... Like you use the ring that describes your approach (way) when doing something. I strike with vigour/passion so I use Fire. I strike blindly using my intuition so I use Void. Etc. Ok... So there is nothing stopping a player from doing everything "with passion" and thus rolling always his Fire (and normally highest ring). Ofc you can as a GM state that a certain approach (ring) is better for a roll and set a lower TN for that approach, so its not as bad as it seems, but stil there are players that will go with all my XP on this Ring and roll it every time.

As the GM, you should actually establish different outcomes for every Approach and not just modify the TN. Like, the choice of Approach should be meaningful, and there should be a variety of consequences on the line depending on what the player picks. Yeah, it is tough to do, but it is really awesome if you can get a hang of it.

Also concerning rings in combat: this isn't addressed in the beginner box at all but once they expand on the critical strike rules that fire berserker will quick switch to another ring once his fire ring gets wounded or gravely wounded. That of course is assuming they keep closer to the beta rules, but I have no reason to think otherwise.

A lot of Ring Balance will hang on available Techniques. For example, we might see more techniques similar to Iaijutsu ones, that don't scale or scale poorly with Bonus Successes, making them much less appealing for Fire Builds while being a wonderful choice for Air or Void.

58 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

As the GM, you should actually establish different outcomes for every Approach and not just modify the TN. Like, the choice of Approach should be meaningful, and there should be a variety of consequences on the line depending on what the player picks. Yeah, it is tough to do, but it is really awesome if you can get a hang of it.

This sounds like a lot of work but ultimately rewarding. Thanks for suggesting this.

11 minutes ago, Corg Ironside said:

Also concerning rings in combat: this isn't addressed in the beginner box at all but once they expand on the critical strike rules that fire berserker will quick switch to another ring once his fire ring gets wounded or gravely wounded. That of course is assuming they keep closer to the beta rules, but I have no reason to think otherwise.

I didn't see anywhere in the BB that Rings get damaged. This might have changed from the Beta when they changed crits, or it could just be simplified for the BB. Personally, I am hoping for the former.

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

NPCs follows the Genesys approach; there are minons and there are adversaries.

Minions basically ignore most of the rules in favour of being automatically rendered unconscious or killed when incapacitated, and only being allowed to spend opportunities on the one thing (maybe) that they have in their own entry, rather than the full range of techniques and tables that PCs have.

They're a touch more dangerous than Genesys/SWRPG minions, but frankly not much . The rules for assistance are nice and simple (essentially, add one dice and keep one extra dice for every mook after the first in a mob), and the 'add bonus successes to damage' handles fighting as a squad automatically and strife works to provide a nice simple morale rule.

You left out the minion group limit: no more than 6 minions, so no more than 5 additional dice. Yes, the GM really needs two sets of dice.

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

• • Since you can only ever be doing one action at once, you never find yourself needing to do track multiple action techniques. You might find multiple opportunity techniques available at once, but rarely will you get enough opportunity to trigger more than one enough to justify doing so - because, for example, if I got enough opportunity on a melee strike to trigger three or four opportunities, I also have enough to trigger a critical strike [**] and increase the effective deadliness of my Katana [* per point of deadliness], and hence at that point my opponent isn't 'stunned', 'prone', 'dazed' or whatever, he or she is 'looking for their head in the gutter'...

Quibble...

Experienced (School Rank 3+) characters in preferred stances can and often will minimize successes in the keep to trigger up to 3 different techniques' opportunities. On keep 4, TN2, I've seen players use 3 opp on 3 different 1 opp spends, each from a different special ability.

invocations (Spells) are the most complex to run; they are an action with its own opportunity spends. They often interact with a school ability.

But, yeah, overall, it's less happening at once than in FFGSW/Genesys.

It's not like the assassin in one AoR game... one talent for extended range, another for free aim, another for 3 aims, another for bonus blue, another for upgrade skill, another for reduced critical threshold, and another to add medical skill to damage, one more to add a free advantage... 8 talents involved.

1 hour ago, Nreetzfc said:

This sounds like a lot of work but ultimately rewarding. Thanks for suggesting this.

I didn't see anywhere in the BB that Rings get damaged. This might have changed from the Beta when they changed crits, or it could just be simplified for the BB. Personally, I am hoping for the former.

Because it's not in the BB. Nor in the beta.

TNs for a given ring go up by 2, however, for injured. (That's actually WORSE than losing 2 dice, mathematically. Ring dice are mathematically 0.6 successes. A +2 TN is equivalent to losing 3⅔ ring dice! Skill dice are 0.7 successes each. When compromised, rings are 0.1666 successes, and skills are 0.2727 successes)

Scars are just adversities - two successes/explosives forced to be rerolled.

I already mentioned what i was referring to wasn't in the BB, but it is on page 12 of beta update 4 which shows that critical strikes can inflict the conditions of Wounded (Ring), and Gravely Wounded (Ring). The latter of which has "Effects: Increase the TN of checks with the affected Ring by 1, plus 1 for each check they have made with that ring this scene (to a maximum of TN 8)."

FFG dumbed down critical strikes for each of the Star Wars BBs also so I definitely expect some expounding on the subject in the Core Book. Especially since the latest article already referred to a weapon's deadliness. Admittedly, the effects of Gravely Wounded seems a like clunky to me so i hope they fine tune that, but the point was that there's already reasons inherent to not put all of your stock in a single ring.

On 9/12/2018 at 5:24 AM, Alderaan Crumbs said:

At the risk of seeming rude, allow me to respond to everyone, as I’m on my tablet and clipping quotes is daunting.

don't worry about that.

On 9/12/2018 at 5:24 AM, Alderaan Crumbs said:

I really appreciate everyone responding with such detail; it’s pretty much quashed my concerns. I did have another question, if it can be answered: Can/will characters be dealing with a ton of abilities they need to address and possibly use together, and if so will they be as easily managed as talents in GeneSys (also, I use the GeneSys and Star Wars system’s interchangeably, for rules reference purposes)?

Generally, the number of them will be similar to genesys for the same length of play, or just a bit fewer than genesys, depending upon the group.

Fewer will apply at a time, tho'. Very few are "always on" (I can't think of any from the Beta other than school specials)

Opportunity is slightly more common, but with a narrower range of results, than Advantage..

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 2:56 AM, Corg Ironside said:

FFG dumbed down critical strikes for each of the Star Wars BBs also so I definitely expect some expounding on the subject in the Core Book. Especially since the latest article already referred to a weapon's deadliness.

This. It's hardly out of character for a starter box to have a 'toned down' version of the full rules.

17 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

Fewer will apply at a time, tho'. Very few are "always on" (I can't think of any from the Beta other than school specials)

Opportunity is slightly more common, but with a narrower range of results, than Advantage..

Agreed. Given a ring score of 3 meaning 3 kept dice then barring explosive successes, you're actually really pushing the boat out to pass a TN2 check and get an opportunity at the same time.

By comparison, in Genesys a stat of 2 and a skill of 2 can realistically spawn a slack handful of advantage if several negative dice come up blank, because multiple-advantage-per-face results exist.

I would be seriously surprised if the crits were changed in the core from the beta in methodology.
I would be seriously surprised if the ones in the beginner game were not different from both the beta and core.