We were chatting about Force Users on our discord server , and someone pops in and was like I thought we were talking Legion for a second because Vader is Immune: Pierce in Legion .

Got me thinking.

What if every character with ~Pierce 3 was also immune to the effects of pierce? Probably would need to be only immune to "Pierce 3" specifically.

How would that change things?

I feel like that would make force user showdowns a lot more interesting.

It'd sure help Vader in his matchup vs SC that's for sure.

That would also mean figures that have Pierce as a damage dealing mechanic (eJawa, eSentry, Mak, etc.) would have extreme difficulty in doing any damage vs. Vader (with his 2 black dice) or any Force User (which is I think who you mean when you say a figure that surges for Pierce 3).

I think if the problem with Force Users is survivability (outside of Vader), we can address that. Honestly, I think Force User's most pressing need is attack application. Kanan getting a static +1 DMG from Spectre Cell increases his value immensely. And I'm not for sure a static +1 BLOCK is the answer, as it would be very powerful to give JK Luke or Kanan or Obi-Wan both +1 DMG and +1 BLOCK when you can match them up with Alliance Rangers and put them in 7 and 8-activation lists.

Here's my current Force User fix:

Elite Neutral Skirmish Attachment Card - The Force Is My Ally
Cost: 1

Force User only

+1 DMG.

When an attack on you declared, exhaust this card to apply -1 DMG to the attack results.

"Some iconic quote about the Force" -- somebody from the movies

6 hours ago, Rogue Dakotan said:

We were chatting about Force Users on our discord server , and someone pops in and was like I thought we were talking Legion for a second because Vader is Immune: Pierce in Legion .

Got me thinking.

What if every character with ~Pierce 3 was also immune to the effects of pierce? Probably would need to be only immune to "Pierce 3" specifically.

How would that change things?

I feel like that would make force user showdowns a lot more interesting.

If Spectre Cell Ezra was immune to pierce, he would be unkillable by anything other than hunters

3 hours ago, cnemmick said:

That would also mean figures that have Pierce as a damage dealing mechanic (eJawa, eSentry, Mak, etc.) would have extreme difficulty in doing any damage vs. Vader (with his 2 black dice) or any Force User (which is I think who you mean when you say a figure that surges for Pierce 3).

I think if the problem with Force Users is survivability (outside of Vader), we can address that. Honestly, I think Force User's most pressing need is attack application. Kanan getting a static +1 DMG from Spectre Cell increases his value immensely. And I'm not for sure a static +1 BLOCK is the answer, as it would be very powerful to give JK Luke or Kanan or Obi-Wan both +1 DMG and +1 BLOCK when you can match them up with Alliance Rangers and put them in 7 and 8-activation lists.

Here's my current Force User fix:

Elite Neutral Skirmish Attachment Card - The Force Is My Ally
Cost: 1

Force User only

+1 DMG.

When an attack on you declared, exhaust this card to apply -1 DMG to the attack results.

"Some iconic quote about the Force" -- somebody from the movies

"For My ally is the force, and a powerful ally it is."

Cant outdo Yoda!

3 hours ago, TheWelcomeMat88 said:

"For My ally is the force, and a powerful ally it is."

Cant outdo Yoda!

"That's not how the Force works!" - Han Solo

Well, if you do a Skirmish Upgrade themed like that - the Force offering extra protection to Force Users - it should be rebel-faction-only in the REBELS/OT-era if you want to stay true to the thematic aspect of the card.

2 hours ago, Fourtytwo said:

Well, if you do a Skirmish Upgrade themed like that - the Force offering extra protection to Force Users - it should be rebel-faction-only in the REBELS/OT-era if you want to stay true to the thematic aspect of the card.

Maybe different ones for Rebel/Scum/Imperial instead of a single Neutral one. Much like the Command Cards for the respective factions heal/deal strain/deal damage. But then, I think the Command Cards for Force Users are enough without a need for attachments, but that's just me.

35 minutes ago, Bitterman said:

But then, I think the Command Cards for Force Users are enough without a need for attachments, but that's just me. 

I completely agree with that.

3 hours ago, Bitterman said:

Maybe different ones for Rebel/Scum/Imperial instead of a single Neutral one. Much like the Command Cards for the respective factions heal/deal strain/deal damage. But then, I think the Command Cards for Force Users are enough without a need for attachments, but that's just me.

If the Force User command cards amplified damage and survivability across all factions and existing figures, I would agree with you.

In the Heart of the Empire wave, we got 2 new Force Users and a fix for Darth Vader. Ahsoka saw some play but ultimately her attack dice lets her down - even with the Pierce 3. Maul never saw regular play despite having a green/yellow/red attack pool - it was nearly impossible to keep him alive long enough to get 2 attacks in... and those attacks wouldn't produce as much VPs as he would give your opponent when defeated.

Vader's fix was just more than reducing his cost. He went from regularly doing less than 5 DMG vs. single die defenders to having a 50/50 chance of doing 7 DMG vs. the same. He also got essentially an extra activation with his end of round ability. Without both, Vader would just be a giant walking blaster sponge that, while playing him, you just hope he survives long enough to wack something once.

Likewise look at Spectre Cell - Kanan and Ezra are specifically designed for it, and are more difficult to justify putting into your army without SC. They have the same problems as Maul and Ahsoka: a combination of not enough damage output, survivability, action economy. Without SC, you may have Pummel in your hand, but rushing Ezra out to be adjacent to another high-deployment-cost figure at the start of the round might not produce enough damage to defeat it... especially since you couldn't move up Kanan aggressively to be nearby.

Don't get me wrong - I like Kanan's and Ezra's design. But they are designed on the same principles of other Force Users who struggle. I'm looking forward to running Kanan and JK Luke together, but their problems are still tricky to solve and shouldn't be solved by hoping to pull Deathblow out of my command card deck at the right moment... only to be 3 or 4 damage short of killing IG-88, or 1 or 2 damage short of killing a non-queen piece that then runs away.

So this Neutral Skirmish fix I suggested addresses the big stuff for nearly all the Force Users. Put this on JK Luke and he's still a little overcosted at 13 but he will at least feel closer to Vader in value. Kanan, Ezra and Ahsoka all thrive with it. Obi-Wan now hits nearly hard enough to one-shot any elite Trooper sent to contest his control area. Maul is doing a static +2 DMG, which makes his Reach & Cleave 2 attack option a real option. The Emperor could take it for the additional defense boost to work with Zillo. Other Force Users feel better with it, but still need some proper restructuring: Davith's Hide mechanic in the age of Doubt, Diala's... everything, The Grand Inquisitor's cost, etc.

(I'm still wondering if the defense buff on this card should be increased. I'm just worried giving a static BLOCK makes Ezra too OP when he can be put into 7+ activation lists and/or lists with Rangers, Weequays, etc.)

Anyway, I really enjoy these conversations. Thanks for the feedback so far!

6 hours ago, Fourtytwo said:

Well, if you do a Skirmish Upgrade themed like that - the Force offering extra protection to Force Users - it should be rebel-faction-only in the REBELS/OT-era if you want to stay true to the thematic aspect of the card.

Themeaticly, I agree with you, but mechanically it needs to be applied to all Force Users Except Varth Dader. Sith use their lightsabers and force abilities to redirect ranged attacks. And while Force Users all have different styles & lore associated with it, trying to adapt it might force a rewrite of every deployment card. Some cards do need to be rewritten but the less printed material that is erratta'd or obsolete'd, the better. (X-Wing in particular suffered from both - printing new stuff that was broken with old stuff, then errata-ing the old stuff so much that only the hardcore players could keep up with the changes.)

@Fourtytwo @Bitterman Ok, I thought on it some more, and maybe this card might tickle your fancies a bit better?

Quote

Elite Neutral Skirmish Attachment Card - A Powerful Ally

Cost: 1

Force User only

While this card is readied, you gain "+1 DMG."

When an attack is declared on you, you may exhaust this card to gain one of the following:

• If you are REBEL, apply +1 BLOCK or +1 EVADE to the attack results.
• If you are IMPERIAL, you interrupt to have the attacker suffer 1 DMG.
• If you are SCUM, you interrupt to have the attacker suffer 1 STRAIN and become Weakened.

"I don't like sand." -- Anakin Skywalker

Sure, I see where you're going with it. A couple of minor niggles (like I'd literally have three cards, rather than one with three different effects; and as written, the Scum version is strictly better than the Imperial version) but the concept seems reasonable enough to me.

I'd also use the Card Editor some guy created. </shameless plug>

****, that should say "when an attack on you is declared". Oh well, you get the idea.

Argh... why the **** does this forum censor the word d*mn?

...and h*ll? This is ridiculous.

Also, "While this card is ready, you gain..."

@Bitterman whoever made that card creator sure is pretty awesome!

Looking at the card you made, I can see how cramming all the text for a neutral attachment won't work. So, 3 cards it is!

Elite Rebel Skirmish Attachment Card - A Powerful Ally (Calmness of Light)

Cost: 1

Force User only

Patient Defense: While this card is ready, when defending apply +1 BLOCK or +1 EVADE to the defense results.

Righteous Strike: When you declare an attack, exhaust this card to apply +1 DMG to the attack results. After this attack resolves, you gain 1 DMG TOKEN.

"I don't like sand." -- Anakin Skywalker

Elite Imperial Skirmish Attachment Card - A Powerful Ally (Power of Darkness)

Cost: 1

Force User only

Combat Ready: While this card is ready, apply +1 DMG to your attack results.

Furious Response: When an attack is declared on you, you may exhaust this card to interrupt and force the attacker to become Weakened. After this attack resolves, if it did not miss, the attacker suffers 1 DMG.

"I don't like sand." -- Anakin Skywalker

Elite Scum Skirmish Attachment Card - A Powerful Ally (Explosion of Chaos)

Cost: 1

Force User only

Combat Ready: While this card is ready, apply +1 DMG to your attack results.

Unpredictable Defense: When an attack is declared on you, exhaust this card to interrupt and roll 1 yellow die. The attacker suffers STRAIN equal to the amount of SURGE results rolled. If by suffering this STRAIN the attacker has suffered DMG equal to its Health, the attack misses. Then apply BLOCK to your defense results equal to the number of DMG results rolled.

"I don't like sand." -- Anakin Skywalker

I like the idea, except for the fact that it's an attachment...so only 1 character gets use of it. If you want to run 3-4 force users, you probably need something along the lines of "Spectre Cell."

On 9/15/2018 at 5:18 PM, TheWelcomeMat88 said:

I like the idea, except for the fact that it's an attachment...so only 1 character gets use of it. If you want to run 3-4 force users, you probably need something along the lines of "Spectre Cell."

They're elite non-unique attachments, so up to 2 Force Users can have them. If you run more than 2 with these fixes, I think you start running into problems with Focus on 3 or more fixed Rebel/Scum Force Users. But that'll require testing to confirm.

3 hours ago, cnemmick said:

They're elite non-unique attachments, so up to 2 Force Users can have them. If you run more than 2 with these fixes, I think you start running into problems with Focus on 3 or more fixed Rebel/Scum Force Users. But that'll require testing to confirm.

Good point on them being non-unique and elite.

It would be a neat idea in a universe where Driven by Hatred and Spectre Cell didn't already exist.

But Vader, Kanan and Ezra don't really need more help, and it wouldn't help Luke, Obi-Wan or Ashoka at all.

I've previously mentioned this but frankly I'm relatively disappointed in how the power curve shaped the game overtime. We went from "doing 2 - 3 damage was the norm" to "Leia is unplayable at 8HP with auto-evade and white die because she might be one-shotted, and Ahsoka let us down because she can't consistently do 7dmg per attack". Even Inquisitor don't really see play with 15HP because he doesn't do enough damage

The issue isn't that their attacks or defense, it's the lack of ability to do outrageous amount of damage in one attack . With the right combo even Han Solo could be one-shotted by IG-88 and Terro can be one-shotted by Onar. Elite Stormtroopers used to be the golden standard and they're borderline unplayable because even an unfocused eRanger might one-shot them. It's the fear of paying their cost and the figure being one-shotted without surviving long enough to be useful

Eventually we might need someone that has 30HP to not be chopped up to pieces and we're already seeing this happening, Spectre Cell chopping up Vader like butter from all those Pierce 3. I think at the moment "pre-wave 8" and "post-wave 8" is a pretty good line to draw

I just want to go back to the "3 damage per attack is the norm" dammit

2 hours ago, ricope said:

Even Inquisitor don't really see play with 15HP because he doesn't do enough damage

I remember when the Grand Inquisitor was considered borderline broken (at least round here, can't speak for global consensus) because he was so much better than everything that had come before.

I certainly remember playing and winning tournaments with eStormtroopers and eRebel Troopers (not the regular versions of either, mind, they were always crap). No-one would touch them these days.

13 hours ago, Bitterman said:

I remember when the Grand Inquisitor was considered borderline broken (at least round here, can't speak for global consensus) because he was so much better than everything that had come before.

I certainly remember playing and winning tournaments with eStormtroopers and eRebel Troopers (not the regular versions of either, mind, they were always crap). No-one would touch them these days.

and Blaise

and Bossk

When they initially got released people were losing their mind, and look at where is Bossk these days?