You can throw the charge to distance 1, if you throw it and do not move would you be in range or out of range of the blast?
I believe you would be out of range if it was thrown at max R1.

1 minute ago, Shraken said:

You can throw the charge to distance 1, if you throw it and do not move would you be in range or out of range of the blast?
I believe you would be out of range if it was thrown at max R1.

You must, by definition, still be in range. The charge must be placed "within" range 1, meaning that the entire token must be inside. But even if it was to be placed "at" range 1 it is impossible to say that you place it at range 1, but then you are somehow out of range without even moving.

gotcha, makes sense.

Activate last, move into range of your target, place a charge.

Next turn, activate first, place a second charge, move away, detonate after your move action.

I do not recommend this strategy ... but it was fun to do on an engaged Darth!

11 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

I do not recommend this strategy

Is that because it's cheating? ? (just teasing)

FYI, Area Weapons perform "ranged attacks" (RRG, page 13). But engaged units cannot be the target of ranged attacks (page 29). Otherwise, not a bad strategy! You could even detonate both at once if you have 2 saboteurs in your list, dealing 2 suppression to your targets (other than the fearless Vader, of course)!

1 minute ago, nashjaee said:

Is that because it's cheating? ? (just teasing)

FYI, Area Weapons perform "ranged attacks" (RRG, page 13). But engaged units cannot be the target of ranged attacks (page 29). Otherwise, not a bad strategy! You could even detonate both at once if you have 2 saboteurs in your list, dealing 2 suppression to your targets (other than the fearless Vader, of course)!

Oh, I didn't realize it was technically 'a ranged attack' ... to be honest that's a silly interaction with engagement because it seems I could still trigger it and hit a unit next to the engaged units!

However I didn't cheat (even inadvertently)'cause technically ended up I waiting until Vader made mincemeat of my fearless fleet troopers before setting off the charge!

I have to admit it was rather epic for Darth, he sliced em and took a dodge, and then ended up surviving both charges blowing up in his face (the second detonate was in response to a subsequent Imperial action - though by the same saboteur) and then even a sniper shot... I could just imagine him just striding out of the smoke totally unstoppable~ Very classic ambush gone awry in face of an unexpectedly strong target kinda scene!

Yeah, fluff-wise it doesn't really make sense. I imagine that the engagement rule is to simulate actively avoiding friendly fire. But the charge tokens can already hit friendlies anyway... so I guess it's more about balance and/or rules consistency?

29 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

ended up I waiting until Vader made mincemeat of my fearless fleet troopers before setting off the charge! 

Haha, not like Vader needs your help slicing them up anyway. Really sounds like a cinematic moment; surrounded by fear and dead men ?

3 hours ago, nashjaee said:

Is that because it's cheating? ? (just teasing)

FYI  , Area Weapons perform "ranged attacks" (RRG, page 13). But engaged units cannot be the target of ranged attacks (page 29). Otherwise, not a bad strategy! You could even detonate both at once if you have 2 saboteurs in your list, dealing 2 suppression to your targets (other than the fearless Vader, of course)!

Doesn't make sense that someone who is engaged won't be affected by a charge (or a mine)

First, because it has no logical sense at all.

Second, i'll quote some parts of the RRG:

Page 14 "Attack"
"During a ranged attack, the attacker and defender are
not in a melee, and the attacker can use only weapons
that have a blue range (1, 2, 3, 4 ) icon."

Page 13 "Area Weapon"
"A weapon with a yellow range icon (1, 2, 3, 4) is an area
weapon. When using an area weapon, perform a separate
attack against each unit that is in line of sight and at the range
indicated by the number on the range icon."

So, since an Area Weapon has a YELLOW icon, it does "attack" each unit, regardles if it's engaged or not.

17 minutes ago, YuriPanzer said:

So, since an Area Weapon has a YELLOW icon, it does "attack" each unit, regardles if it's engaged or not.

Yes, but later on page 13

Quote

AREA WEAPON
A weapon with a yellow range icon (????) is an area weapon. When using an area weapon, perform a separate attack against each unit that is in line of sight and at the range indicated by the number on the range icon.
• Area weapons can be used only through abilities and other game effects that specifically allow the use of area weapons.
• Area weapons are usually associated with a charge or condition token, and are used when that charge or condition token detonates.
• Attacks made by an area weapon are ranged attacks.
• An area weapon cannot be in the same attack pool as another weapon.
• Area weapons cannot be added to an attack pool during an attack made by a unit.
• Other weapons cannot be added to an attack pool with an area weapon already in it, including other area weapons.

And also then on page 24/25

Quote

DETONATE
When a charge or condition token detonates, either through an ability or some other game effect, perform a separate attack against each unit (regardless of which player owns that unit) that the token has line of sight to, using the area weapon, surge conversion chart, and weapon keywords on the card associated with the token that is being detonated. After a charge or condition token detonates, remove that token from the battlefield.
• A yellow range icon (????) indicates that a weapon is an area weapon. When a charge or condition token detonates, use the area weapon on the card associated with that token.
• When using an area weapon, perform a separate attack against each unit that is in line of sight and at the range indicated by the number on the range icon, determined from the edge of the charge or condition token that is detonating. For each attack made when a charge or condition token detonates, that token is considered the attacker.
• Each attack made when a charge or condition token detonates is a ranged attack.
• When a charge or condition token detonates, refer to the surge conversion chart associated with that token, regardless of whether a unit placed that token or used an ability to detonate it. • When a charge or condition token detonates, units cannot spend aim tokens to modify attack dice, regardless of whether a unit placed that token or used an ability to detonate it.
• Charge and condition tokens cannot suffer wounds.
• To determine line of sight from a charge or condition token to a unit, determine line of sight from the unit to the token instead. If any minis in the unit have line of sight to the token, then the

Emphasis added...

*shrug*

Clearly wacky~

yep @CaptainRocket I know

The attack from an Area Weapon is considered ranged. It could trigger Esteemed Leader, for example.

But my point is that the restriction to not attack an engaged trooper unit is for when you are in the Declare Defender step of an Attack action performed by a unit.

To my understanding, Area Weapons doesn't follow the targeting rules for an attack action, they follow their own rules, so they "perform  a separate attack against each unit that is in line of sight and at the range indicated by the number on the rang  e icon."

33 minutes ago, YuriPanzer said:

yep @CaptainRocket I know

The attack from an Area Weapon is considered ranged. It could trigger Esteemed Leader, for example.

But my point is that the restriction to not attack an engaged trooper unit is for when you are in the Declare Defender step of an Attack action performed by a unit.

To my understanding, Area Weapons doesn't follow the targeting rules for an attack action, they follow their own rules, so they "perform  a separate attack against each unit that is in line of sight and at the range indicated by the number on the rang  e icon."

I see your argument. It's basically:

1. Ranged Attacks are normally defined as 'using blue weapons and not in Melee'.
2. Area Weapons are a special separate thing. They mention ranged attack so they can trigger ranged attack effects, but don't follow any of the normal procedure for units attacking and so ignore the Melee restriction.

Ok, I'll buy it! It's plausible and even desirable - however it's ambiguous and confusing. ?

13 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

however it's ambiguous and confusing.

Completely agree

Keep in mind that it's what I think that makes sense.

Sorry, I'm not buying it ?

It's actually remarkably clear.

Premise 1: area weapons perform ranged attacks.

Premise 2: engaged units cannot be targeted by ranged attacks.

Premise 3: there are no rules that modify the normal attack procedure when an area weapon is being used. The concept of "performing an attack" is well defined and has a step-by-step process that is defined on pages 14-15. Some of your agency may have been removed (i.e., you personally do not choose the defenders), but you still resolve the steps in order. There is nothing that tells you not to.

Conclusion: The detonating charges cannot target engaged units.

It may not make sense fluff-wise, but that is what the rules conclude. As always, feel free to house rule

1 hour ago, YuriPanzer said:

Page 14 "Attack"
"During a ranged attack, the attacker and defender are
not in a melee, and the attacker can use only weapons
that have a blue range (1, 2, 3, 4 ) icon." 

Page 13 "Area Weapon"
"A weapon with a yellow range icon (1, 2, 3, 4) is an area
weapon. When using an area weapon, perform a separate
attack against each unit that is in line of sight and at the range
indicated by the number on the range icon." 

So, since an Area Weapon has a YELLOW icon, it does "attack" each unit, regardles if it's engaged or not.

If you really want to take these lines literally, then the attack actually cannot happen at all! Ranged attacks can only use blue weapons. But the yellow area weapon tells you to perform a ranged attack. I don't think they intended to establish a catch-22 that makes the attack impossible ? . But really, the important point is that none of the lines you've quoted thus far remove the ranged vs. engaged restriction, nor do they modify the steps of an attack other than to prescribe the defenders you are obligated to select.

I humbly disagree mr. @nashjaee but I totally understant that the rules aren't clear with this case.

I'm reading again and again the entries on the RRG about Detonate, Area Weapon and so, and I still get the feeling that the RAI want the area weapon to perform an attack even if you are engaged.

I don't think we should follow all the instruction for the Attack on page 14-15. The token is not restricted to only one attack. Also, as you said, you ignore the step "Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses one enemy unit to attack;" First, because you are forced to attack everyone in range, and you must target FRIENDLY.

So for me, the entry on Area Weapon is telling you what to do:

" When using an area weapon, perform a separate
attack against each unit that is in line of sight and at the range
indicated by the number on the range icon."

So if your unit is in LoS and at Range, you get the attack.

But I must admit that if we take that the attack is A RANGED ATTACK, engaged units can't be attacked.

But then I saw this (Weapons, page 52):

"• A weapon with a blue range icon (1 2 3 4 *) is a ranged
weapon. Ranged weapons can only be used during
ranged attacks.
• A weapon with a yellow range icon (1 2 3 4) is an area
weapon. Area weapons can only be used through abilities
and other game effects that specifically allow the use of area
weapons. An attack made with an area weapon is considered
a ranged attack."

I have the feeling that the distinction between "used during ranged attacks." and "an area weapon is considered a ranged attack" is because the area weapon doesn't follow regular targeting steps, but is considered for effects (supression, for example).

Anyway, I can't say that I am completelly right and you are wrong. You made me think about the ruling. Maybe we should ask the devs... ?

Thanks for all the coments!

10 minutes ago, YuriPanzer said:

"• A weapon with a blue range icon (1 2 3 4 *) is a ranged
weapon. Ranged weapons can only be used during
ranged attacks.
• A weapon with a yellow range icon (1 2 3 4) is an area
weapon. Area weapons can only be used through abilities
and other game effects that specifically allow the use of area
weapons. An attack made with an area weapon is considered
a ranged attack."

I have the feeling that the distinction between "used during ranged attacks." and "an area weapon is considered a ranged attack" is because the area weapon doesn't follow regular targeting steps, but is considered for effects (supression, for example).

I don't think the lines you've quoted here are saying that area weapons do not follow the usual attack steps. They're just emphasizing that area weapon attacks only take place in special cases. In other words, you can't perform a usual "attack action" during your activation and get an area weapon attack out of it. There are special rules for how attacks with this type of weapon take place. However, when it does finally take place it follows the usual steps because nothing tells you not to.

All that said (and since we're talking about intent), it certainly seems strange that you can detonate a bomb and it magically hits some units in range, but not others. But consider the consequences of going the other way: currently, engaged units are immune to ranged attacks. The only way to attack them is to get into melee and expose yourself to return attacks. If we rule the area weapon interaction the other way, we now have a way to tie up a unit while still getting "free" attacks at it from outside that engagement. Something about that just doesn't feel like good design to me.

Yep, something is not working properly.

in the other hand, if we follow "your" interpretation, if an area weapon explodes and there are some guys behind heavy cover they won't get benefits from cover because of the Blast keyword. But if there are som guys in the open in a melee, they won't be affected at all.

Weird.

Perhaps an email to FFG might clarify things. What's the email for rules questions?

7 hours ago, MAstaKFC said:

What's the email for rules questions?

Click "Contact" at the bottom of any page.

2 hours ago, Turan said:

Click "Contact" at the bottom of any page.

Actually, hit “Customer Service”, because the first thing the contact link tells you (on the subject) is that they can’t take Rules questions over the phone and you should contact customer service ?

19 hours ago, nashjaee said:

Sorry, I'm not buying it ?

[...]

If you really want to take these lines literally, then the attack actually cannot happen at all! Ranged attacks can only use blue weapons. But the yellow area weapon tells you to perform a ranged attack. I don't think they intended to establish a catch-22 that makes the attack impossible ? . But really, the important point is that none of the lines you've quoted thus far remove the ranged vs. engaged restriction, nor do they modify the steps of an attack other than to prescribe the defenders you are obligated to select.

See it's exactly this that tips me over into 'buying it.'

The rules as written make area attacks impossible *only if* they area attacks are actually making ranged attacks according to the normal procedure.

Whereas if area attacks have their own procedure (detailed in such a way that attacks friendlies and enemies and engaged units) * but* for all other other purposes is considered a ranged attack (suppression, triggering, etc.), then you're fine.

This has the added benefit of actually making sense in terms of logical simulation. ?

18 hours ago, nashjaee said:

If we rule the area weapon interaction the other way, we now have a way to tie up a unit while still getting "free" attacks at it from outside that engagement. Something about that just doesn't feel like good design to me.

I don't know that it's exactly 'free' because you have to share damage... enough to discourage gamey cannon fodder tactics? I dunno, but it's always a balance.

Gents, I've sent a Rules Question:

Quote

Area weapons (Mines, proton charges) are considered Ranged Attacks.

Engaged units cannot be targeted by Ranged Attacks.

Question is: If there is any ENGAGED trooper in range and LoS, gets attacked by the Area Weapon?

I'll let you know when they answer.

Thanks to everyone for your comments!

On 9/12/2018 at 7:13 PM, YuriPanzer said:

Gents, I've sent a Rules Question:

I'll let you know when they answer.

Thanks to everyone for your comments!

Just curious if you ever got a reply?

Still waiting...

Even checked spam inbox. Dunno lads...

On 9/11/2018 at 6:41 PM, nashjaee said:

Sorry, I'm not buying it ?

It's actually remarkably clear.

Premise 1: area weapons perform ranged attacks.

Premise 2: engaged units cannot be targeted by ranged attacks.

Premise 3: there are no rules that modify the normal attack procedure when an area weapon is being used. The concept of "performing an attack" is well defined and has a step-by-step process that is defined on pages 14-15. Some of your agency may have been removed (i.e., you personally do not choose the defenders), but you still resolve the steps in order. There is nothing that tells you not to.

Conclusion: The detonating charges cannot target engaged units.

It may not make sense fluff-wise, but that is what the rules conclude. As always, feel free to house rule

If you really want to take these lines literally, then the attack actually cannot happen at all! Ranged attacks can only use blue weapons. But the yellow area weapon tells you to perform a ranged attack. I don't think they intended to establish a catch-22 that makes the attack impossible ? . But really, the important point is that none of the lines you've quoted thus far remove the ranged vs. engaged restriction, nor do they modify the steps of an attack other than to prescribe the defenders you are obligated to select.

You treat it as a ranged attack when it detonates for the purposes of applying cover, adding suppression, etc., but you aren’t performing a ranged attack when you detonate. The token is considered the stacker (according to the rules reference) You aren’t declaring a target or performing an “attack action”. You are simply following some of the same steps as a ranged attack for the purposes of resolving this effect.