12 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Remember that "speed-X move" always means a standard move. So you can't place a mini on a different level and claim that it's within a speed-1 move.

Right, I was missing that point in my argument.

But by the rules you can put a mini in a different vertical level:

"After the unit leader climbs or clambers, each other mini is placed in cohesion with that leader as normal.
»» Minis in the same unit can be placed on different vertical levels , but each mini must be within height 1 of its unit leader."

I interpret that as a choice, if not I think that that statement should have read: "Minis in the same unit must be place at the same height as the unit leader if possible. If not, they can be placed... etc" or something like that.

I mean, you may be right in your argument that is inferred, but I think that if the rules wound't allow you to do that unless it's an exception for lack of space, it should explicitly say so, not just that you can place the minis on different levels.

3 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

But by the rules you can put a mini in a different vertical level:

"After the unit leader climbs or clambers, each other mini is placed in cohesion with that leader as normal.
»» Minis in the same unit can be placed on different vertical levels , but each mini must be within height 1 of its unit leader."

I interpret that as a choice, if not I think that that statement should have read: "Minis in the same unit must be place at the same height as the unit leader if possible. If not, they can be placed... etc" or something like that.

I mean, you may be right in your argument that is inferred, but I think that if the rules wound't allow you to do that unless it's an exception for lack of space, it should explicitly say so, not just that you can place the minis on different levels.

Yeah, I think I may not have been clear. It sounds like we're mostly on the same page. My interpretation is the following:

When you do a climb you can absolutely end up with minis on different levels, and it's entirely your choice whether that happens or not. However, upon a subsequent standard move everyone probably has to end up on the same level. If the leader moves away from the terrain edge, I think for sure others must follow him. If the leader stays in contact with the edge, I think this may be the grey area where minis might be able to stay on different levels if they were there already.

10 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

With more thinking on the topic I now think that you cannot use force push to move a non leader mini from level 1 to level 0. Here is my logic:

From the pinned:

Quote

Question: Can the upgrade card Force Push be used to force an enemy trooper unit to perform a climb or clamber move?

Answer: No. Whenever a game effect allows or forces a unit to perform a “speed–x” move, that unit performs a full or partial standard move with a speed equal to or lower than “x.” Climbing and clambering are not standard moves and thus cannot be performed in place of a speed–x move.

From page 20:

Quote

When placing a mini in cohesion with its unit leader, that mini must be placed such that the distance between the mini and its unit leader could be made as a legal speed-1 move from the final position of the unit leader.

Case closed?

No, I'll disagree with myself and say not case closed, but rules need to be clarified. I think the intent of the quoted rule should be something like:

"[AFTER A NORMAL MOVE, w]hen placing a mini in cohesion with its unit leader, that mini must be placed such that the distance between the mini and its unit leader could be made as a legal speed-1 move from the final position of the unit leader. "

I say that because the image I attached above clearly violates RAW.

@nashjaee perhaps this is what you were intuiting when we were talking about the other scenarios. Here, the RAW does seem to force units to be at the same height, which clearly is in opposition to the image from page 10.

To add more confusion, from page 38:

Quote

While performing a standard move , a trooper mini can move onto or over a piece of terrain that has a height that is equal to or less than the height of the unit leader’s mini.

18 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

To add more confusion, from page 38:

That quote isn't talking about the height the unit leader is on, but the height of the mini of the unit leader itself. Meaning that the unit may perform a standard movement to pass over terrain which has a height equal or lower than the unit leader mini, without having to climb or clamber

34 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

That quote isn't talking about the height the unit leader is on, but the height of the mini of the unit leader itself. Meaning that the unit may perform a standard movement to pass over terrain which has a height equal or lower than the unit leader mini, without having to climb or clamber

Right but let me take the "or" out:

Quote

While performing a standard move , a trooper mini can move onto a piece of terrain that has a height that is equal to or less than the height of the unit leader’s mini.

Going back to the original question, "... what if you are simply moving the unit leader who is already on top of a building to the edge of the building and then placing the remaining models in the unit such that they are touching the building at ground level." This rule seems to say yes.

On 9/26/2018 at 2:59 PM, Screwtape said:

Quote

While performing a standard move , a trooper mini can move onto a piece of terrain that has a height that is equal to or less than the height of the unit leader’s mini.

Going back to the original question, "... what if you are simply moving the unit leader who is already on top of a building to the edge of the building and then placing the remaining models in the unit such that they are touching the building at ground level." This rule seems to say yes.

I don't see how this rule has any application to the scenario you describe. You have a building that is shorter than the height of a mini?

This rule is not saying to place the minis on another piece of terrain (or the ground) that is compared to the height of a piece of terrain your unit leader is on...it's saying if you have a small hill or crate or something that's shorter than a dude, you can just move on top of it, it doesn't require a climb/clamber.

If you were moving the unit leader along the edge of such a short piece of terrain, then clearly the answer would be yes as you'd be placing the other minis into cohesion in a location they could move to with a speed-1 move.

51 minutes ago, Turan said:

I don't see how this rule has any application to the scenario you describe. You have a building that is shorter than the height of a mini?

This rule is not saying to place the minis on another piece of terrain (or the ground) that is compared to the height of a piece of terrain your unit leader is on...it's saying if you have a small hill or crate or something that's shorter than a dude, you can just move on top of it, it doesn't require a climb/clamber.

If you were moving the unit leader along the edge of such a short piece of terrain, then clearly the answer would be yes as you'd be placing the other minis into cohesion in a location they could move to with a speed-1 move.

Valid point, but what if there is a bit of terrain at height ~0 near the height 1 terrain (where the unit is). If we substitute the word "ground" in the original question with "height ~0 terrain" then I think the rule is valid. I think the spirit of the question is still, "Can you use Force Push to move someone from height 1 to height 0?"

10 hours ago, Screwtape said:

Valid point, but what if there is a bit of terrain at height ~0 near the height 1 terrain (where the unit is).

Then you can't move between those things without using a climb or clamber. You are confusing the issue by quoting a rule talking about terrain smaller in height than the physical mini, and then talking about terrain of height 1.

11 hours ago, Screwtape said:

I think the spirit of the question is still, "Can you use Force Push to move someone from height 1 to height 0?"

Actually, if you look back at the first page, the question was not about trying to push the unit leader off of terrain. It was about how to legally place the rest of the unit into cohesion.

On 9/28/2018 at 9:18 AM, Turan said:

Actually, if you look back at the first page, the question was not about trying to push the unit leader off of terrain. It was about how to legally place the rest of the unit into cohesion.

I agree, it is not about pushing the leader off of terrain. That ruling has been made. I did not say anything about moving a leader off of terrain. The "spirit" of the question was this, " Can you use Force Push to move someone from height 1 to height 0? (via cohesion placement)" The someone here is obviously not a leader because we already have that ruling. But after a standard move where all minis are at height 1 can you place a non-leader at height 0? What say you @Turan ?

On 9/29/2018 at 10:08 PM, Screwtape said:

But after a standard move where all minis are at height 1 can you place a non-leader at height 0?

According to Vertical Cohesion on page 10 of the RRG, that is only legal in a round when the unit executed a climb/clamber. So no, not after a standard move.