I have a question about using Force Push and vertical cohesion. I understand that there is already a ruling in the sticky that prevents you from using Force Push to cause the unit to climb or clamber...but what if you are simply moving the unit leader who is already on top of a building to the edge of the building and then placing the remaining models in the unit such that they are touching the building at ground level. This doesn't seem to break any rules for cohesion that I can think of does it?

Sorry, I don't think that's going to work. RRG, Page 19:

"When placing a mini in cohesion with its unit leader, that mini must be placed such that the distance between the mini and its unit leader could be made as a legal speed-1 move from the final position of the unit leader. » This means that when placing a mini in cohesion with its unit leader it cannot be placed on the other side of impassable terrain from its unit leader ."

1 hour ago, Gengis Jon said:

Sorry, I don't think that's going to work. RRG, Page 19:

"When placing a mini in cohesion with its unit leader, that mini must be placed such that the distance between the mini and its unit leader could be made as a legal speed-1 move from the final position of the unit leader. » This means that when placing a mini in cohesion with its unit leader it cannot be placed on the other side of impassable terrain from its unit leader ."

It isn't impassable. They can still make a speed 1 move to get to where the unit leader is.

14 minutes ago, Hoffburger said:

It isn't impassable. They can still make a speed 1 move to get to where the unit leader is.

Buildings are in fact impassable (RRG page 9). That doesn't mean you can't climb onto them; it just means you can't do a standard move through them.

Also note: anything in the format "speed-X move" means a standard move of the given speed. So if you are on different levels, you're not within a "speed-1 move". You're within a "climb/clamber".

Also, just for the sake of argument, if you could do what you’re suggesting, your opponent would still get to determine how their minis are positioned within cohesion of the leader. So, if I understand your intent, if it’s in their best interest to stay in or out of certain area to avoid your Force user, they could do that.

3 minutes ago, Gengis Jon said:

Also, just for the sake of argument, if you could do what you’re suggesting, your opponent would still get to determine how their minis are positioned within cohesion of the leader. So, if I understand your intent, if it’s in their best interest to stay in or out of certain area to avoid your Force user, they could do that.

Isn’t part of the movement action placing minis in coherency so your opponent won’t place the models.

as for the question under climb is say

After the unit leader climbs or clambers, each other mini is placed in cohesion with that leader as normal.
» Minis in the same unit can be placed on different vertical levels, but each mini must be within height 1 of its
unit leader.

so they can be placed on different levels but as people have said it is a standard move action so you can do it

3 minutes ago, Steelgolem said:

so they   can      b     e    placed on different levels bu   t as p  eop  le have said it is a standard mo  ve act  ion so you ca  n do it                  

Yes, you can have minis on different levels when climbing or clambering.

But to the OP’s question, no, you can’t do what he’s asking bc their is no climbing or clambering.

5 minutes ago, Gengis Jon said:

Yes, you can have minis on different levels when climbing or clambering.

But to the OP’s question, no, you can’t do what he’s asking bc their is no climbing or clambering.

Yea my bad was suppose to say can’t do it

2 hours ago, nashjaee said:

Buildings are in fact impassable (RRG page 9). That doesn't mean you can't climb onto them; it just means you can't do a standard move through them.

True, but the scenario described is not placing one mini on the other side of impassable terrain from the other.

The placement wouldn't be legal because they're not within a speed-1 move of each other, but not because of the passage Gengis bolded.

Edit: Should that be..."but not not?" "Not but not?" ?

15 minutes ago, Turan said:

but the scenario described is not placing one  m  ini  on the other    side of impassable  terrain from the oth  er.  

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, or just confused in general, but if you’re standing on a building you’re on impassable terrain... if you drop a unit (or in this case part of a unit) off the building, aren’t you now “on the other side” of the impassable terrain?

1 hour ago, Gengis Jon said:

if you drop a unit (or in this case part of a unit) off the building, aren’t you now “on the other side” of the impassable terrain?

In English vernacular, no. You are on another side, but the English phrase "on the other side" of something is commonly understood to mean that the object in question is physically in between the units.

If I had an open door pointing at me and you were in the doorway, we would be facing adjacent sides of the object but no one would describe you as being on the other side of the door from me unless it were closed and physically in between us.

I dunno, maybe I'm splitting hairs, because the rest of that rules article makes the placement in question clearly illegal regardless of these semantics.

On 9/6/2018 at 4:35 PM, Hoffburger said:

I have a question about using Force Push and vertical cohesion. I understand that there is already a ruling in the sticky that prevents you from using Force Push to cause the unit to climb or clamber...but what if you are simply moving the unit leader who is already on top of a building to the edge of the building and then placing the remaining models in the unit such that they are touching the building at ground level. This doesn't seem to break any rules for cohesion that I can think of does it?

Page 18:

" Minis in the same unit can be placed on different vertical levels, but each mini must be within height 1 of its unit leader. "

Page 20:

"When separated by vertical distances, the position of a mini from the position of its unit leader must also be a legal climb move. If a unit leader is on top of elevated terrain, any minis in that unit that are below their unit leader must be in base contact with that terrain such that moving between the position of the leader and the position of any mini in the unit is a legal climb move."

"When placing a mini in cohesion, it cannot climb higher than the surface to which the unit leader climbed, or lower than the unit leader climbed if the unit leader climbed downward."

It seems that you can place the models lower than the leader EXCEPT after a move in which the leader "climbed downward". Since this move is not a move in which the leader climbed downward, it would appear that you could do this. Unless, there is another rule that would supersede these.

40 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

Page 18:

" Minis in the same unit can be placed on different vertical levels, but each mini must be within height 1 of its unit leader. "

Page 20:

"When separated by vertical distances, the position of a mini from the position of its unit leader must also be a legal climb move. If a unit leader is on top of elevated terrain, any minis in that unit that are below their unit leader must be in base contact with that terrain such that moving between the position of the leader and the position of any mini in the unit is a legal climb move."

"When placing a mini in cohesion, it cannot climb higher than the surface to which the unit leader climbed, or lower than the unit leader climbed if the unit leader climbed downward."

It seems   that you can place the models lower than the leader EXCEPT after a move in which the leader "climbed downward". Since this move is not a move in which the leader climbed downward, it would appear that you could do this. Unless, there is another rule that would supersede these.

Well, the issue is that all of these passages are within the context of climb and clamber movements (similar to the rule about overhanging bases, which also only applies when climbing or clambering). Most importantly that first one from page 18. It’s a sub-bullet of “After the unit leader climbs or clambers, each other mini is placed in cohesion with that leader as normal.“

Just now, nashjaee said:

Well, the issue is that all of these passages are within the context of climb and clamber movements (similar to the rule about overhanging bases, which also only applies when climbing or clambering). Most importantly that first one from page 18. It’s a sub-bullet of “After the unit leader climbs or clambers, each other mini is placed in cohesion with that leader as normal.“

Page 20 is not under Climb and Clamber, it is under Cohesion. I think the question we are really asking is, "After a normal move, in which all units are on the same, elevated, vertical level, can a unit be placed on lower vertical level from its leader?"

Just looking at this rule, "When placing a mini in cohesion, it cannot climb higher than the surface to which the unit leader climbed , or lower than the unit leader climbed if the unit leader climbed downward."  It seems as if the only time a unit cannot be lower than its leader is if the unit leader "climbed downward". However, this rule is sub rule under the rule that starts with, "When separated by vertical distances..." Does this mean "When separated by vertical distances AFTER the movement action" or "When separated by vertical distances BEFORE the movement action"? Does it matter?

5 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

Page 20 is not under Climb and Clamber, it is under Cohesion.

Yes you're right, my mistake. However, that line is telling you how to handle a certain scenario. It does not grant permission to create that scenario. It says " When separated by vertical distances [...]", which is different than " You may separate by vertical distances [...]" or some other similar wording. You first need an effect that allows you separate by vertical distances (such as climb and clamber), then that passage on page 20 provides details on how to handle it.

12 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

Does this mean "When separated by vertical distances AFTER the movement action" or "When separated by vertical distances BEFORE the movement action"? Does it matter?

Well you place minis in cohesion after the move; so probably "after"? If you're separated before the movement, then you must have done something in the past that allowed you to be separated and, presumably, this line would have taken its effect at that point. If you're separated after, then you are probably in the process of resolving this line's effect. But the crux of it is this: if you didn't climb or clamber, you can't employ vertical cohesion because the rules that allow you to separate the minis are part of the climb and clamber rules.

2 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Yes you're right, my mistake. However, that line is telling you how to handle a certain scenario. It does not grant permission to create that scenario. It says " When separated by vertical distances [...]", which is different than " You may separate by vertical distances [...]" or some other similar wording. You first need an effect that allows you separate by vertical distances (such as climb and clamber), then that passage on page 20 provides details on how to handle it.

Here is a situation. Turn 1 I climb (to height 1) and I move all my units into cohesion on the same vertical level as my leader. To be clear, after turn 1 all the minis in this unit are at height 1. In turn 2 I make a normal move, my leader is still at height 1, he did not climb, and it is impossible to place all my units into cohesion at height 1. It is possible to place minis at height 0 as long as they follow the cohesion rules? Is the move I propose illegal?

2 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

Here is a situation. Turn 1 I climb (to height 1) and I move all my units into cohesion on the same vertical level as my leader. To be clear, after turn 1 all the minis in this unit are at height 1. In turn 2 I make a normal move, my leader is still at height 1, he did not climb, and it is impossible to place all my units into cohesion at height 1. It is possible to place minis at height 0 as long as they follow the cohesion rules? Is the move I propose illegal?

That situation is going to be incredibly rare (if you got everyone up there legally it's difficult to make a move where you can no longer place everyone, but I suppose it may be possible if there are impassable walls in the area and you're moving around them).

The more common problematic scenario might be: Turn 1 climb to height 1 and leave a few minis at level 0 because they don't fit (totally legal). Turn 2 make a normal move at level 1, but now the minis you left at level 0 can't fit up there.

In both cases, I might suggest just breaking the rule (gasp!) and place as many as possible legally, and place the other(s) at level 0 as close as you can. It seems to me that these situations are not handled in the rulebook and I'm not sure how they would officially rule it (either do what I suggested, or you can't do the movement at all since you can't legally complete the cohesion step of the movement.)

1 minute ago, nashjaee said:

The more common problematic scenario might be: Turn 1 climb to height 1 and leave a few minis at level 0 because they don't fit (totally legal). Turn 2 make a normal move at level 1, but now the minis you left at level 0 can't fit up there.

In both cases, I might suggest just breaking the rule (gasp!) and place as many as possible legally, and place the other(s) at level 0 as close as you can. It seems to me that these situations are not handled in the rulebook and I'm not sure how they would officially rule it (either do what I suggested, or you can't do the movement at all since you can't legally complete the cohesion step of the movement.)

I agree that the rules are ambiguous (this is why we are having the discussion) but I do think the rules describe what legal cohesion looks like if the minis are on different heights. I don't see a problem with your example, even though you say that it breaks the rules.

Let me try to understand your argument a bit better. Is the problem that you have moving a mini vertically after a normal move? Or is it that after a normal move all minis *must* be at the same height? As you said in your example, turn 1 you climb from 0 to 1 but there is not enough space at 1 for all minis, so you are forced to leave some at 0. Then next turn you make a normal move on 1 and those that were left at 0 move up to 1 on a turn where there was no climb. Do you think this is a problem?

Looking at the image on page 10 (attached) it seems perfectly legal to leave units at different heights even if you have room. Using this image as an example, on the next normal move there will be a change of heights for one of the minis. Do you think this is creating a situation would constitute a problem on the units next activation?

Great questions! I think this will clarify a lot.

5 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

A: Is the problem that you have moving a mini vertically after a normal move? B: Or is it that after a normal move all minis *must* be at the same height?

A: No, not really. I think if they were already separated due to a previous climb move, then after a subsequent normal move the other minis would have to come to the same level as the leader. I don't see any problems there. B: Yes, this is what I think we're supposed to do.

11 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

A: Looking at the image on page 10 (attached) it seems perfectly legal to leave units at different heights even if you have room. Using this image as an example, on the next normal move there will be a change of heights for one of the minis. B: Do you think this is creating a situation would constitute a problem on the units next activation?

A: Totally agreed. No problems there. B: Nope! I think the problem would be if you did a subsequent standard move and wanted to leave that other mini up there. (I think we have to assume that what we see in this image is a unit that just completed a climb/clamber down to level 0 and left 1 mini in vertical cohesion on level 1.)

1 hour ago, nashjaee said:

But the crux of it is this: if you didn't climb or clamber, you can't employ vertical cohesion because the rules that allow you to separate the minis are part of the climb and clamber rules.

Where in the rules is this stated? I may be missing something, but I don't see that restriction under the "Cohesion" section of the rules. The only relevant part I can find is that to have cohesion the minis must be at a legal speed-1 move from the leader. If the unit leader is touching the edge of a terrain I can see as a legal speed-1 move to place a mini up or down that terrain, of course also touching that edge also. The leader didn't climb or clamber so this rule won't apply for that case:

"When placing a mini in cohesion, it cannot climb higher than the surface to which the unit leader climbed, or lower than the unit leader climbed if the unit leader climbed downward."

2 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

Where in the rules is this stated?  I may be missing something, but I don't see that restriction under the "Cohesion" section of the rules.

Sorry, it isn't stated explicitly. It's an inference the same way we infer that "your base can't overhang" is only applicable during climb/clamber due to the context of the rule.

3 minutes ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

The only relevant part I can find is that to have cohesion the minis must be at a legal speed-1 move from the leader. If the unit leader is touching the edge of a terrain I can see as a legal speed-1 move to place a mini up or down that terrain, of course also touching that edge also.

Remember that "speed-X move" always means a standard move. So you can't place a mini on a different level and claim that it's within a speed-1 move.

12 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

A: Totally agreed. No problems there. B: Nope! I think the problem would be if you did a subsequent standard move and wanted to leave that other mini up there. (I think we have to assume that what we see in this image is a unit that just completed a climb/clamber down to level 0 and left 1 mini in vertical cohesion on level 1.)

I am not sure that is backed up by the rules though. Let me quote from page 20 again:

Quote

When separated by vertical distances, the position of a mini from the position of its unit leader must also be a legal climb move. If a unit leader is on top of elevated terrain, any minis in that unit that are below their unit leader must be in base contact with that terrain such that moving between the position of the leader and the position of any mini in the unit is a legal climb move.

I am assuming that "When separated by vertical distances..." For our example let's assume this means something like "BEFORE the move when separated by vertical distances..." (again, I'm not sure of the intent of this phrase) If this is true, there is no mandate that, at the end of our normal move, the unit *must* try to be on the same level. Going back to the image I attached, we see that it is perfectly legal to end a climb with minis on different levels, even if there is room for all of the minis to be on the same level. Now reading the above rule, what would force this user to move that mini from level 1 to level 0? It seems to me all this mini needs to do is be a position where it could "climb" to its leader. This would allow the mini on level 1 to remain on level 1 as long as it could "climb" to its leader.

3 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

Going back to the image I attached, we see that it is perfectly legal to end a climb with minis on different levels, even if there is room for all of the minis to be on the same level.

Yes totally agreed.

3 minutes ago, Screwtape said:

Now reading the above rule, what would force this user to move that mini from level 1 to level 0? It seems to me all this mini needs to do is be a position where it could "climb" to its leader. This would allow the mini on level 1 to remain on level 1 as long as it could "climb" to its leader. 

Hmm, ok I can see an argument there. If the leader performs a standard move, but stays in base contact with the edge of the terrain I could see an argument that you can leave the other mini on a different level if it was already there. I certainly don't know the intent, but that seems plausible.

But if the leader moves away from the edge with that standard move I think it's very clear that you cannot leave the other mini up there. Because you have to be within a "climb" of the leader, and climbing requires that you start and end in base contact with the terrain edge.

With more thinking on the topic I now think that you cannot use force push to move a non leader mini from level 1 to level 0. Here is my logic:

From the pinned:

Quote

Question: Can the upgrade card Force Push be used to force an enemy trooper unit to perform a climb or clamber move?

Answer: No. Whenever a game effect allows or forces a unit to perform a “speed–x” move, that unit performs a full or partial standard move with a speed equal to or lower than “x.” Climbing and clambering are not standard moves and thus cannot be performed in place of a speed–x move.

From page 20:

Quote

When placing a mini in cohesion with its unit leader, that mini must be placed such that the distance between the mini and its unit leader could be made as a legal speed-1 move from the final position of the unit leader.

Case closed?

1 minute ago, Screwtape said:

With more thinking on the topic I now think that you cannot use force push to move a non leader mini from level 1 to level 0. Here is my logic:

From the pinned:

From page 20:

Case closed?

Haha, oh yes I agree that point is pretty clear. We strayed a bit from the original topic and started discussing more general cases of vertical cohesion ? . We're now experts in all kinds of cohesion!