Actually, the eHeavy Stormtroopers have 2 weaknesses. The lack of rolled Surges vs. their great Surge abilities is just one of them. But their Speed 3 is the bigger problem. In many cases, you won't be able to move out of cover, shoot, move back into cover. So with a surge power token at least they deal some damage. But when they can't move back into safety after shooting, they will die. That's not worth it.

2 hours ago, DerBaer said:

Actually, the eHeavy Stormtroopers have 2 weaknesses. The lack of rolled Surges vs. their great Surge abilities is just one of them. But their Speed 3 is the bigger problem. In many cases, you won't be able to move out of cover, shoot, move back into cover. So with a surge power token at least they deal some damage. But when they can't move back into safety after shooting, they will die. That's not worth it.

That and they have no reroll or accuracy modification, so they can totally flub their attack and hit as hard as a riot.

I'd be alright if they totally redid the Twin Shadows skirmish side. I love Biv and Saska but they are horrendous. Tusken Raiders are ok but outshined by nearly everything.

13 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

That and they have no reroll or accuracy modification, so they can totally flub their attack and hit as hard as a riot.

I'd be alright if they totally redid the Twin Shadows skirmish side. I love Biv and Saska but they are horrendous. Tusken Raiders are ok but outshined by nearly everything.

I think a "Lie in Ambush" set of tuskens could do some damage no? But I know what you mean.

Tusken Raiders actually are OK when played with Jundland Terror. The rest of Twin Shadows is ****

anybody else notice how bad the sculpts are on DT's, i'm about to paint them and out of 8 only 2 actually have straight blasters, all the rest are bent between both hands

32 minutes ago, Darth evil said:

anybody else notice how bad the sculpts are on DT's, i'm about to paint them and out of 8 only 2 actually have straight blasters, all the rest are bent between both hands

Yeah, they need the hot-water treatment.

I've played a bunch of matches with DTs and here's what I've found:

* They have the same problem as any other red/yellow die attacker: when you roll badly, there's very little to help. (They have roughly the same damage stats as Hera, but less access to Focus and other ways to amplify with added dice.) Putting damage/surge tokens on them helps, but then Thrawn isn't giving himself or another attacking figure that token. If they had a built-in reroll, they would output the kind of damage that they should for a single-figure deployment.

* Too many Imp Leaders ruins a list. And they are Leaders for all practical purposes. That's why it's difficult to get enough damage output from a list with 2 DTs, Thrawn and an Imp officer. If you limit yourself to 1 DT with Thrawn or skip Thrawn and run 2 DTs, you should be able to squeeze in another attacking corps. (rRiots are a very good cheap option.)

* The elite's ability to give out tokens is *very* handy. It is the second-best strength of the figure. The best thing about Elite DTs is its cost and how it makes 6 deployment lists more possible. Thrawn/eDT is 10 points but a pretty good support team for trooper lists and single figured like Terro, Emperor & AT-DP. And yeah, Vader, though it's harder to squeeze 2 groups of elite troopers around Vader with them.

* with Chopper's usage on the rise, rDTs are actually a good pick for terminal sitters and objective runners. Again, one too many DTs & Leaders might weaken your list, so be careful.

* squad command will be better once there are some decent regular trooper deployments made. rRiots and rSentries are interesting choices, with rRiots being the only regular Imp deployment that can do damage similar to its elite version. If rStormies ever get fixed to do 2 dmg per attack, they would be worth trying.

On 2018年9月3日 at 2:17 AM, cnemmick said:

*  They have the same problem as any other red/yellow die attacker: when you roll badly, there's very little to  help. (They have roughly the same damage stats as Hera, but less access to Focus and other ways to amplify with added dice.) Putting damage/s  urge tokens on them helps, but then Thrawn isn't giving himself or another attacking figure that token. If they had a built-in reroll, they would output the kind of damage that they should for a single-figure deployment. 

I haven't test this out myself, but if we allow all death trooper to have a built in reroll, do you thing that balance things out of it's too much?

I wish to here your thoughts. Thx

Half of the yellow die sides have no damage or single damage so when you roll that with the single red damage you get blocked. Especially with Spectre Cell and most individuals having a lot of health or some sort of defensive boost. Having a figure do 0 damage over and over makes taking the DT an exercise in futility. The elite ones cost more than a jet trooper, can't hit as hard and are not as mobile. They need a way to self generate surge tokens just like ISB needs ro start Hidden ans be able to hide themselves like Weequay

49 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

Half of the yellow die sides have no damage or single damage so when you roll that with the single red damage you get blocked. Especially with Spectre Cell and most individuals having a lot of health or some sort of defensive boost. Having a figure do 0 damage over and over makes taking the DT an exercise in futility. The elite ones cost more than a jet trooper, can't hit as hard and are not as mobile. They need a way to self generate surge tokens just like ISB needs ro start Hidden ans be able to hide themselves like Weequay

In fact when I've seen the preview before release I believed no one would have ever thought to replace eJet for such a trash. Also their ability to activate another group is like adding one mediocre unit to a mediocre group. Apparently I was wrong because people actually replaced eJets with DTs. I believe instead that eJets+EA is a much better deal than 2xeDT. Having extra evade when you need it means 2 or 3 DMG less against a SC but you keep the nice plus of having 3 dice attack when melee spectres come closer.

Ejets don't quite cut it with their damage output vs Spectre Cell (SC), and SC could care less about that extra block you throw on them. The reason EDTs are competitive is because they can hand out that all so precious token to Lord Vader himself- giving Vader a surge for his end or round attack is MASSIVE and changes the damage numbers in the current dominant Imperial list called "Who's the Boss" featuring Vader/Palpatine/ And Thrawn. Also, Thrawn wants to give himself a surge token 1st round to attack for the +3 damage, and with the EDT you can do it. Also the EDT can chain into thrawn or an officer in this list, which is very strong for removing figures, or having a lowly officer move up and either get Vader or Palp into better position to attack or hide them to saftey.

Also the range really does matter for keeping them safe and getting in more attacks. With Vader/Palp/ Thrawn, you don't need them to do a ton, they are kinda the cherry on top.

EDTS also have a nuts combo, if you can go with one EDT, then go into another trooper leader, then play "Strength in Numbers" you could go into another eDT who goes into another unit. That's a bunch of attacks your opponent can do nothing about, that's nothing to snuff at.

eDTs will only get better as time goes on, not worse.

34 minutes ago, TheWelcomeMat88 said:

Ejets don't quite cut it with their damage output vs Spectre Cell (SC), and SC could care less about that extra block you throw on them. The reason EDTs are competitive is because they can hand out that all so precious token to Lord Vader himself- giving Vader a surge for his end or round attack is MASSIVE and changes the damage numbers in the current dominant Imperial list called "Who's the Boss" featuring Vader/Palpatine/ And Thrawn. Also, Thrawn wants to give himself a surge token 1st round to attack for the +3 damage, and with the EDT you can do it. Also the EDT can chain into thrawn or an officer in this list, which is very strong for removing figures, or having a lowly officer move up and either get Vader or Palp into better position to attack or hide them to saftey.

Also the range really does matter for keeping them safe and getting in more attacks. With Vader/Palp/ Thrawn, you don't need them to do a ton, they are kinda the cherry on top.

EDTS also have a nuts combo, if you can go with one EDT, then go into another trooper leader, then play "Strength in Numbers" you could go into another eDT who goes into another unit. That's a bunch of attacks your opponent can do nothing about, that's nothing to snuff at.

eDTs will only get better as time goes on, not worse.

You have to count an extra block on eJet as an evade because of Agile which means very likely -3 pierce or -2 damage against SC.

The nuts combo isn't that nuts. You have 4 attacks: 2 DTs and at the best Thrawn and Hondo. It's 4 attacks with 20 deployment points and 1 command point. In case of double eJets with Squad Swarm you have 4 attacks potentially all 4 with 3 dice or even 4 (shared experience). It's 4 attacks for 14 deployment points and 2 command points.

There's only one advantage of having DTs: extra activations. Although every time you use field tactics you lose this advantage.

1 minute ago, Golan Trevize said:

You have to count an extra block on eJet as an evade because of Agile which means very likely -3 pierce or -2 damage against SC.

The nuts combo isn't that nuts. You have 4 attacks: 2 DTs and at the best Thrawn and Hondo. It's for attack with 20 deployment points and 1 command point. In case of double eJets with Squad Swarm you have 4 attacks potentially all 4 with 3 dice or even 4 (shared experience). It's 4 attacks for 14 deployment points and 2 command points.

There's only one advantage of having DTs: extra activations. Although every time you use fuel tactics you lose this advantage.

You may be able to stop either the pierce or surge against Kanan, but not Ezra. With Kanan around he will turn a die to any side and easily pull off both.

Against Spectre Cell (before defensive rerolls if Kanan is nearby) elite Jets with the flyby blue die only average 3 damage 54% of the time and 57% vs Sabine, it's only a lowly 30% of the time they can get in 3 damage vs Ezra. That's just a tough time. Their attack is definitely better than eDT without tokens, eDT w/o surge token only does 2 damage 64% of the time vs a black Spectre Cell die, but with the surge token jumps to 68% chance to do 3 damage. Jets are still solid units and competitive, but if you look at the results of recent Store Tournaments and National Tournaments since "Tyrants of Lothal" dropped, consistently we see eDTs have been in more winning Imperial lists with Vader (and Palpatine and Thrawn), not eJets because there is just better synergy there at the moment. If you match combo vs combo, sure the jets squad swarm is better I wouldn't doubt that- it will consistently pump out more damage, I'm just saying as a unit they bring far more than just extra activations, and I think the proof is in the pudding so to speak

21 minutes ago, TheWelcomeMat88 said:

You may be able to stop either the pierce or surge against Kanan, but not Ezra. With Kanan around he will turn a die to any side and easily pull off both.

Against Spectre Cell (before defensive rerolls if Kanan is nearby) elite Jets with the flyby blue die only average 3 damage 54% of the time and 57% vs Sabine, it's only a lowly 30% of the time they can get in 3 damage vs Ezra. That's just a tough time. Their attack is definitely better than eDT without tokens, eDT w/o surge token only does 2 damage 64% of the time vs a black Spectre Cell die, but with the surge token jumps to 68% chance to do 3 damage. Jets are still solid units and competitive, but if you look at the results of recent Store Tournaments and National Tournaments since "Tyrants of Lothal" dropped, consistently we see eDTs have been in more winning Imperial lists with Vader (and Palpatine and Thrawn), not eJets because there is just better synergy there at the moment. If you match combo vs combo, sure the jets squad swarm is better I wouldn't doubt that- it will consistently pump out more damage, I'm just saying as a unit they bring far more than just extra activations, and I think the proof is in the pudding so to speak

I understand your point now that you showed proper number. Although for a fair comparison I would compare eJet+token Vs DT+token. I believe it won't change much, because in practice people dropped eJets in favour of DTs.

5 hours ago, buckero0 said:

Having a figure do 0 damage over and over makes taking the DT an exercise in futility. The elite ones cost more than a jet trooper, can't hit as hard and are not as mobile. They need a way to self generate surge tokens just like ISB needs ro start Hidden ans be able to hide themselves like Weequay

You've been reading my skirmish fixes doc, huh? ?

11 hours ago, Daniel1172 said:

I haven't test this out myself, but if we allow all death trooper to have a built in reroll, do you thing that balance things out of it's too much?

I wish to here your thoughts. Thx

I really need to work on a programmatic way to simulate rerolls. But I can't imagine giving DTs a reroll would make them do too much damage. Versus a single die with no defensive modifiers, there's roughly a 3% or 4% chance of an Elite DT doing 6 DMG without a reroll. With a reroll, the odds of that result are still dependent on one of your die hitting the max result (either 3 DMG on the red or 1 DMG 2 SURGE on the yellow) and your opponent hitting a min result on their defense dice.

Also, with a reroll, Elite DTs will likely have roughly a 50% chance of doing at least 4 DMG vs. a single die defender, not counting modifications. That's similar to an unmodified Greedo attack.

I think Death troopers are great. They’re a hybrid support unit that can massively affect the tempo of the game. They have a specific role in the game, and you shouldn’t directly compare damage output to another 4 figure cost whose primary purpose is damage output.

The elite Death troopers have been great for me. It took me a while to realize that the "or leader" in Tactical comms was pretty much a red herring. I now simply play the eDTs to hand out tokens and to be small damage dealers. They have decent range and pretty good surges and damage for a 4 Point unit. I usually play two of them to hand out both a block and a damage token to Vader or to hand out damage tokens to each other. I rarely chain them, only when they can make a kill. They are nice teaming up with Thrawn once he goes into fighting mode, but I made mistakes of trying too hard to set that up in my early games and I tried to make a strategy out of it. They are a combat support hybrid unit and the rest of them is icing on the cake in my book.

Are the eDTs good or they just fit nicely into and augment an already amazing archtype ie. Vader?

What types of lists do you put them in if not Vader?

I've liked Thrawn who does well with tokens loaded but can't be out in open. Doubt screws him over to some degree. Everytime field tactics is used i flub my dice and get slaughtered or the same if used against me

8 hours ago, Fightwookies said:

I think Death troopers are great. They’re a hybrid support unit that can massively affect the tempo of the game. They have a specific role in the game, and you shouldn’t directly compare damage output to another 4 figure cost whose primary purpose is damage output.

I disagree but I will admit my fault in communication: I was looking for a closer comparison in damage math, and Greedo is pretty close. If we compare eDTs with a reroll vs. the damage math of Hera, that would be a more fair comparison since both units fit the hybrid role.

Without any modifers or rerolls, Hera's attack vs. single die defense has roughly a 40% chance of doing at least 4 DMG... unless she's part of Spectre Cell. Then her odds improve to roughly 65-70% of at least 4 DMG, significantly better than an eDT with a reroll.

Also to consider: are eDTs and Hera hybrids in the same way? Given my experience playing Hera inside Spectre Cell and also in Han Solo lists, I've found that her value is maximized when she is played as a support more than an attacker. If she can attack in a round is nice but giving Sabine/Zeb/Alliance Ranger/Drok/Han a boost in Accuracy or surge is where she really provides value.

Given my experience with DTs, I've found they have to balance attacking and support duties equally. Imperials have fewer figures that can do DMG from long range, so once Imperials engage in attacking, they have to maximize damage output to ensure opponents are defeated. Having one or more 3 or 4-cost figure not participating in each round of combat really hurts the overall Imperial attack math. And Field Tactics, which is supposed to give Imperials an advantage with control over turn order, isn't as powerful since DTs attack math isn't very strong & Trooper groups that cost 6 or less don't do enough DMG to justify their cost.

Given these facts, I think giving the DTs a reroll is a pretty good solution. It'll likely add at least 2 DMG per DT to the overall expected output of an Imperial list and makes Field Tactics more powerful without allowing the DTs damage from getting too amplified through Command cards

Another thing that is overlooked with DT/eDTs is that since their attack is mostly worthless, they can use it along with set for stun to get a timely cross map stunned condition in. I am currently thinking of a vader, thrawn, palpatine, and 2 eDT list. There will be enough tokens that doubt can't even do much.

2 hours ago, buckero0 said:

Are the eDTs good or they just fit nicely into and augment an already amazing archtype ie. Vader?

What types of lists do you put them in if not Vader?

I've liked Thrawn who does well with tokens loaded but can't be out in open. Doubt screws him over to some degree. Everytime field tactics is used i flub my dice and get slaughtered or the same if used against me

I tried them with Terro a couple of times and they were so-so. Terro benefits from the inital tokens, but after that he wants to move too fast. My Vader-Thrawn-Terro-eDTx2-filler did ok. Early boost of Terro and Vader and then keep back a bit to boost Thrawn was decent, but the squad as a whole felt like it was missing some Ooomph.

The winner of this years Nordics, is a Vader, Palp,Thrawn, EDT, DT, Imp Officer, EA Zillo, He lost 1 game in Swiss and then cleaned up in top 4.

1 hour ago, cnemmick said:

I disagree but I will admit my fault in communication: I was looking for a closer comparison in damage math, and Greedo is pretty close. If we compare eDTs with a reroll vs. the damage math of Hera, that would be a more fair comparison since both units fit the hybrid role.

Without any modifers or rerolls, Hera's attack vs. single die defense has roughly a 40% chance of doing at least 4 DMG... unless she's part of Spectre Cell. Then her odds improve to roughly 65-70% of at least 4 DMG, significantly better than an eDT with a reroll.

Also to consider: are eDTs and Hera hybrids in the same way? Given my experience playing Hera inside Spectre Cell and also in Han Solo lists, I've found that her value is maximized when she is played as a support more than an attacker. If she can attack in a round is nice but giving Sabine/Zeb/Alliance Ranger/Drok/Han a boost in Accuracy or surge is where she really provides value.

Given my experience with DTs, I've found they have to balance attacking and support duties equally. Imperials have fewer figures that can do DMG from long range, so once Imperials engage in attacking, they have to maximize damage output to ensure opponents are defeated. Having one or more 3 or 4-cost figure not participating in each round of combat really hurts the overall Imperial attack math. And Field Tactics, which is supposed to give Imperials an advantage with control over turn order, isn't as powerful since DTs attack math isn't very strong & Trooper groups that cost 6 or less don't do enough DMG to justify their cost.

Given these facts, I think giving the DTs a reroll is a pretty good solution. It'll likely add at least 2 DMG per DT to the overall expected output of an Imperial list and makes Field Tactics more powerful without allowing the DTs damage from getting too amplified through Command cards

Straight damage isn't a great comparison with Hera either, because the eDT with a surge token can hit from a guaranteed 6 range. Hera's minimum is 3

1 hour ago, Fightwookies said:

Straight damage isn't a great comparison with Hera either, because the eDT with a surge token can hit from a guaranteed 6 range. Hera's minimum is 3

I've avoided talking about eDTs with a surge token because that's a modification of the attack roll. And it's not guaranteed that an Imperial player is going to have Thrawn give a SURGE to an eDT... Thrawn's SURGE may go back on Thrawn. Most lists with DTs getting played (like the one that won Nordics) doesn't feature 2 eDTs so that they can give SURGE to each other.

And eDTs are already getting +4 Accuracy. I think that eDTs are designed to attack figures from 4+ spaces away also bolsters my argument that they split the roles of support and attacker more equally than Hera, and thus need their attack buffed with a reroll.

2 hours ago, GilDK said:

The winner of this years Nordics, is a Vader, Palp,Thrawn, EDT, DT, Imp Officer, EA Zillo, He lost 1 game in Swiss and then cleaned up in top 4.

hmm, cool, I wonder what the command deck looks like. Force User cards if needed, Leader cards and then some protection cards to make your hits do less.