Sniper is in a tower that is range two high.

Snowies are near the base can the flame hit the sniper?

32 minutes ago, animattor78 said:

Sniper is in a tower that is range two high.

Snowies are near the base can the flame hit the sniper?

No, because the range is measured from base to base, touching each base with the ruler. So if the sniper is at height 2, and the attacker is at height 0, then the minimum range of the attack will be 2

The rules only say the range ruler is pointed toward the target mini - the last time this came up, someone cited a ruling at Adepticon that range measurement was only horizontal. Has this been clarified more recently, or am I missing an official reply?

Page 14, at(range):

A unit is at a range if the portion of a miniature’s base that is closest to the object from which range is being measured is inside the segment that corresponds to that range.

There definetly is confusion about this many say you measure horizontal to the table, I had always thought it was base to base.

14 minutes ago, animattor78 said:

There definetly is confusion about this many say you measure horizontal to the table, I had always thought it was base to base.

According to the RRG it is base to base. I highlight you why I make this interpretation, all is on page 43 under "Range":

"To measure range, a player places the range ruler so its beginning touches part of the base of the mini that range is being measured from. Then, the player points the range ruler toward the mini that range is being measured to; the measured range is the range that corresponds to the segment closest to the beginning of the ruler that a portion of the base of the mini being measured to is in.

»» If the base of the mini being measured to touches the raised line between two range ruler segments without crossing it, the mini is at the lower range segment that the line separates."

On those highlighted parts, it mentions that the ruler " touches " the bases, for both the mini it is measured from and measured to.

I agree 100% that it is base to base. But there are many in the community under the impression that it’s horizontal to the table based on a ruling at Adepticon. It makes no sense to me that a sniper two range up could be shot by the flamethrower because they are in base contact of the building, and when measured horizontally the snowy is in range 1.

I really hope this get addressed in the RRG or in the thread on the forums for Asked questions.

10 minutes ago, animattor78 said:

I agree 100% that it is base to base. But there are many in the community under the impression that it’s horizontal to the table based on a ruling at Adepticon. It makes no sense to me that a sniper two range up could be shot by the flamethrower because they are in base contact of the building, and when measured horizontally the snowy is in range 1.

Maybe the confussion comes from the rules of how cohesion is measured, or movementm as in those cases it is measured horizontally without taking into account the height. But for those extracts on the RRG I posted before I think it's clear that range is measured with the ruler touching each base.

What’s interesting is the judge from adpepticon is saying on FB in the Legion thread that it horizontal based on Alex Davy’s ruling. This really needs to be addressed because it great impacts aspects of the game and specific units.

I just sent in the e-mail and received this:

OK, he is contradicting the actual RRG saying that it doesn't have to touch the bases when it says that it does. I'm guessing they will change that part of the RRG or get an errata?

Also for a case like the one from this topic it makes absolutely no sense that a flametrooper can attack a unit that is height 2 just like that and not a unit in front of him at range 2, I'm frustrated with this ruling.

Anyways, @Turan thanks for posting this, it's good to know.

I understand the loss of realism when you have a unit shooting a greater vertical distance than their weapon can reach. However, ultimately, I'm okay with it so long as it gets a clearer wording in the next RRG and it's played consistently.

On 8/10/2018 at 3:56 PM, Lemmiwinks86 said:

OK, he is contradicting the actual RRG saying that it doesn't have to touch the bases when it says that it does. I'm guessing they will change that part of the RRG or get an errata?

They do that again and again and again. We shouldn't be surprised when that's what they do.

That’s an interesting email. I agree that it doesn’t make sense that horizontally it’s range one but a up and suddenly It shoots farther.

2 hours ago, animattor78 said:

That’s an interesting email. I agree that it doesn’t make sense that horizontally it’s range one but a up and suddenly It shoots farther.

I wonder if they’re doing it because of real-world ballistics, e.g., drop based on “horizontal “ distance covered by a projectile.

‘Agreed that such doesn’t really apply to flamethrowers but that may simply be a function of keeping it simple and treating all ranged weapons the same.

Flamethrowers ignore cover, but you still need initial line of sight. If a unit is completely obscured, you cannot make the attack. Unless the unit is on a naked cliff face, you are going to have to be a considerable distance from the base of the terrain in order to be able to see the intended target unit.

That's a large generalization to make without seeing the cover involved in the example situation. There are many designs of building and tower where you could be just about touching the base and still be able to make line of sight to the head of someone standing on top. I'd be inclined to say that's more common than the structure having an outcropping which would prevent it.

This is certainly a... Unique ruling in my opinion/limited experience. It certainly makes measuring range to an elevated unit more difficult in my opinion. Lots of hovering range rulers and eyeballing. The only games I know that discount verticle differences for measurements are games like Battletech, played on a grid.

Just had a look and found this under the attack key word

Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses one enemy unit to attack; this enemy unit is now the defender. Then, the attacking player measures the range from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest miniature of the defender to determine the attack’s range.

4 hours ago, Steelgolem said:

Just had a look and found this under the attack key word

Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses one enemy unit to attack; this enemy unit is now the defender. Then, the attacking player measures the range from the attacker’s unit leader to the closest miniature of the defender to determine the attack’s range.

Then in the section on Range, page 43, says this:

To measure range, a player places the range ruler so its beginning touches part of the base of the mini that range is being measured from. Then, the player points the range ruler toward the mini that range is being measured to ; the measured range is the range that corresponds to the segment closest to the beginning of the ruler that a portion of the base of the mini being measured to is in.

"Towards" here means in the direction of while remaining parrallel to the table surface.

1 hour ago, rowdyoctopus said:

"Towards" here means in the direction of while remaining parrallel to the table surface.

how Do you get parallel out of that your rule say the same as my rule I start the range ruler at the attacking mini and move the other end towards the defending mini no where does it say or imply parallel .

Yea I did read the above email and even though the rules are already there they seem to be ignored again

3 hours ago, Steelgolem said:

how Do you get parallel out of that your rule say the same as my rule I start the range ruler at the attacking mini and move the other end towards the defending mini no where does it say or imply parallel .

Yea I did read the above email and even though the rules are already there they seem to be ignored again

The part you quoted says "measure range". It doesn't explain how you are supposed to do that. How you measure range is found in the Range section I quoted.

We can argue about to vagueness of "point the range ruler towards", but we have an email that says what they intended it to mean. The rules shouldn't be vague, so hopefully the make things more explicit in the next update.

Page 43 1st sentence

Range is the distance between two miniatures on the battlefield.

Bullet point two goes on to explain:

The player points the range ruler toward the mini that the range is being measured to

Nowhere does it state the range ruler is parallel to the ground.

But, i will site tournament rules:

The marshal is the final authority on the application of the rules in the event that the players dont agree.

So, if you are playing an event, and both parties argree that the flamethrower hits the sniper, great.

If you dont agree, ask the judge/marshal for a ruling. Whatever the marshall decides is the final say.

Imho, you measure from base to base, including horizontal and vertical.

58 minutes ago, Thalandar said:

The marshal is the final authority on the application of the rules in the event that the players dont agree.

Except there's established designer response on the matter. So far, everything that has gotten a response from FFG customer service and Davy has gone to be included in the official rules thread and revised RRG. So what's the point in saying "I disagree" just to prolong using your interpretation until it gets added to those resources? It seems to me that just makes it a habit harder to break or an even more painful change for you down the line.