One thing that I would like to see FF change is how the Battle Cards are used. In Armada each player selects cards that are advantageous to them, then the player who has initiative presents their 12 cards and the opposing player selects the 3 cards to be used. This way of using condition cards starts a tactical game the moment you start to select cards to include in your 12. Maybe initiative is already too important in Legion to hang this on it as well, but it would add another layer of tactics. For example; if you’re playing a list with more vehicles, you wouldn’t include cards that need Troopers to claim objectives. This might even alleviate the trooper spam that is very prevalent now.

I am also hoping that FF will eventually increase the points from 800 to 1000. FF did do that to Armada after it got enough different ships. It’s not a huge increase, but I think it would allow for a lot more variety, especially when they come out with more heavy units and operatives or new ranks for that matter.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Good idea or bad? What would you change?

In armada you don't have battlecards, you pick 3 objectives with your list.

if your gonna use Armada as a reference at least reference it correctly

51 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

One thing that I would like to see FF change is how the Battle Cards are used. In Armada each player selects cards that are advantageous to them, then the player who has initiative presents their 12 cards and the opposing player selects the 3 cards to be used. This way of using condition cards starts a tactical game the moment you start to select cards to include in your 12. Maybe initiative is already too important in Legion to hang this on it as well, but it would add another layer of tactics. For example; if you’re playing a list with more vehicles, you wouldn’t include cards that need Troopers to claim objectives. This might even alleviate the trooper spam that is very prevalent now.

I thought thats how it works now? Doesn't the blue player use their Battle Cards out of a deck of 4 battle cards for each row? Have we been playing that wrong?

10 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

I thought thats how it works now? Doesn't the blue player use their Battle Cards out of a deck of 4 battle cards for each row? Have we been playing that wrong?

According to the Tournament rules, that is how it is supposed to be handled.

For Armada you pick one of each color objective to include in you fleet.

Legion: You select 4 of each type of Battle Card (Objective, Condition, or Deployment) to make a deck of 12 to go with your army, the blue player randomly deals out 3 of each from their deck. Alternate selecting one of the cards to cancel, each player can cancel two (or pass). We don't know how many total Battle cards will be printed, but we do know more are likely to be printed since the Objective box came with a new Objective, Condition, and Deployment card. So tailoring your selection will be a thing, we just don't have enough cards yet to fully tailor.

As for increasing the points value, Legion has Grand Army as a optional rule doubling the points, something Armada does not include. If FFG was planning on increasing the points, I think they would have made that modification already with this first rules update, especially with the Special Forces units being released soon. I'd say 1000 point Fleets for Armada are at least as restrictive as the 800 point armies.

I may remember this incorrectly, but I thought the jump from 300 to 400 in Armada was known from the beginning? We were just waiting for a few waves of ships to drop. Have I gone crazy?

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

the player who has initiative presents their 12 cards and the opposing player selects the 3 cards to be used

That system (although I think you've translated the numbers for us already) works well in Armada. But in Legion it gives waaay too much power to Red player in my opinion. Perhaps I'd reevaluate that once substantially more options are available, but right now I (and lots of people) would be bidding like crazy for Red in order to have near complete control of the scenario we play.

Maybe if Blue builds a smaller deck in order to narrow the options. Like 2 cards of each category instead of 3.

2 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

I may remember this incorrectly, but I thought the jump from 300 to 400 in Armada was known from the beginning? We were just waiting for a few waves of ships to drop. Have I gone crazy?

That system (although I think you've translated the numbers for us already) works well in Armada. But in Legion it gives waaay too much power to Red player in my opinion. Perhaps I'd reevaluate that once substantially more options are available, but right now I (and lots of people) would be bidding like crazy for Red in order to have near complete control of the scenario we play.

Maybe if Blue builds a smaller deck in order to narrow the options. Like 2 cards of each category instead of 3.

I seem to recall the points increases were not a surprise, so we both might be crazy.

Your combat deck is supposed to have four of each category, but only three of each are randomly dealt out. Again, once more are released, more tailoring will be possible. As it is, you can only ensure that a single card from each category won't be included in the options if your deck is used since there are currently only five unique cards for each category. If you know your opponent, you can sometimes manipulate their selections, just by knowing which of the options they REALLY hate ?. Poker faces are important when those cards are being dealt out!

I like it the way it is. If you like the armada system, then play armada

The only part of the system that I don't like is that when you chose one to eliminate its always supposed to be the Leftmost card in the row. I like it better when you can chose any of the cards to eliminate.

8 minutes ago, jcmonson said:

The only part of the system that I don't like is that when you chose one to eliminate its always supposed to be the Leftmost card in the row. I like it better when you can chose any of the cards to eliminate.

How would you determine which left over cards will be in effect then?

Wrong! There's no true initiative in Legion because it swaps back and forth between players throughout the game. If you're bidding for a specific player, you're playing the game wrong. It's already tactical in the beginning with set up. Also right now it's pretty impossible to just run more vehicles than troopers, and many have said maxing troopers is the way to go, because it is a trooper focused game. I do agree that FFG will increase the army points. One hint is the new escalation league for this season.

But if you want the game to be like Armada, then go play Armada. It wasn't fun having to bid and limiting yourself to only 3 cards, 1 per objective type. Legion gives us options which makes it more difficult for both players. System is fine as it is now. It's also what, 4 months old. Give it time.

6 minutes ago, Fauste said:

How would you determine which left over cards will be in effect then?

That would still be the Left most card after all of the eliminating is done. The only change is you can eliminate any of the 9 cards.

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I seem to recall the points increases were not a surprise, so we both might be crazy.

IIRC (something which rarely happens) it was known from the start, but nobody payed it any attention until later when the Star Destroyer hype started.

P.S. As for Legion, personally I'd like to see smaller and larger point totals be normal. 600 for fast games, 1000 for the 3 hour afternoon epic battles. I don't wanna bring all my toys, but 800 is a spot where you can't take most of your toys!

P.P.S. What's with the Armada hate folks?! Comparing game systems and offering suggestions should be evaluated at face value, not with some school yard, 'go play your dumb game' taunts! Alex even describes his design process as cribbing from all games he likes, so comparing and contrasting designs seems like it should be something we would welcome...

5 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

This might even alleviate the trooper spam that is very prevalent now.

This game was advertised as an infantry game. Maxing out infantry choices would be expected and needs not be "alleviated".

1 minute ago, TauntaunScout said:

This game was advertised as an infantry game. Maxing out infantry choices would be expected and needs not be "alleviated".

You are correct and I thoroughly enjoy Legion as an infantry-based game with vehicles on the side. However, I think @JediPartisan may have been referring more to the idea of 6x Z-6 Squads or 6x DLT-19 Squads dominating the game. Recently the Snows and Fleets have allowed us to "alleviate" an element of that. In the next little bit we will be able to diversify our infantry even more with Scouts and Commandos then Royal Guards and [insert dope-*** new Rebel unit here]. Obviously the force organization limitations will still require at least 3 of the core units. It will be interesting to see if in a year we're still looking at armies of 6x cores still dominating.

3 hours ago, jcmonson said:

That would still be the Left most card after all of the eliminating is done. The only change is you can eliminate any of the 9 cards.

Then what would be the point of eliminating a non-leftmost card, if it doesn't change the rules that will apply to the game?

28 minutes ago, Turan said:

Then what would be the point of eliminating a non-leftmost card, if it doesn't change the rules that will apply to the game?

Eliminating something that your opponent would have wanted to play. For example, you are red player and Key Positions is in the rightmost spot. Although, that example illustrates why I don’t think that change would necessarily be a good one. It pretty much guarantees that some cards will never be played. (“Never” is hyperbolic, but you get the point.)

2 hours ago, Crawfskeezen said:

You are correct and I thoroughly enjoy Legion as an infantry-based game with vehicles on the side. However, I think @JediPartisan may have been referring more to the idea of 6x Z-6 Squads or 6x DLT-19 Squads dominating the game. Recently the Snows and Fleets have allowed us to "alleviate" an element of that. In the next little bit we will be able to diversify our infantry even more with Scouts and Commandos then Royal Guards and [insert dope-*** new Rebel unit here]. Obviously the force organization limitations will still require at least 3 of the core units. It will be interesting to see if in a year we're still looking at armies of 6x cores still dominating.

That's one thing: if it was more competitive to take mixes of heavy weapons, the games might look cooler. I don't understand why Z-6's would dominate personally. I've never seen one get a single hit.

4 hours ago, AintNoPoser said:

If you're bidding for a specific player, you're playing the game wrong.

So in your opinion there is no potential advantage to setting up the first piece of terrain, and getting to decide who is blue player? The blue players gets to pick table side, the Battlefield conditions selection is made using their objective, Deployment, and condition decks, has first pick to eliminate a card, and has to deploy a unit on the the battlefield first. Forcing your opponent to deploy first allows you to respond to his or her deployment, especially if you have more units, but forces you to select options from a battlefield conditions deck that may (more so in future when we have more cards) be tailored to benefit their units (Forward Deployment and Rapid Reinforcements for a Fleet Trooper/Snowtrooper flamer heavy list for instance). I admit the advantage is not to the same level as in Armada, but that is why Armada's objective system is designed to give some kind of advantage to the second player, and Legion's Battle Cards are applied equally to both players.

4 hours ago, jcmonson said:

That would still be the Left most card after all of the eliminating is done. The only change is you can eliminate any of the 9 cards.

In my opinion, that significantly changes the decision making process. In the current method, the only card that can be "forced" is the rightmost card. In your method, the Blue player can "force" one of the cards from any row, and either player can 'force' the second card by taking away the rightmost. As @nashjaee point out, this method would cause some cards to rarely see play, or be included in the deck purely to encourage the opponent to cancel it.

2 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

P.S. As for Legion, personally I'd like to see smaller and larger point totals be normal. 600 for fast games, 1000 for the 3 hour afternoon epic battles. I don't wanna bring all my toys, but 800 is a spot where you can't take most of your toys!

P.P.S. What's with the Armada hate folks?! Comparing game systems and offering suggestions should be evaluated at face value, not with some school yard, 'go play your dumb game' taunts! Alex even describes his design process as cribbing from all games he likes, so comparing and contrasting designs seems like it should be something we would welcome...

If you're looking for a bigger game, Legion has rules for Grand Army, or find an opponent that also wants to play at 1000. To be honest, the purpose of a points total is to force the decision of what toys will you bring, and to try to limit the amount of time the game should take. Which is more important for Tournaments than casual play to be honest. Most 800 point games I've participated in and seen have taken longer than 2 hours. I will be interested in how many games actually complete at NOVA vs how many end due to time.

I wouldn't mind some kind of rule for smaller games (say "scouting force" with a smaller board, lower points, and more restrictive Force Org chart) for times when I just want a quick skirmish game. As well, in casual play, Force org and points limits can be ignored with both player's agreement. I've played some casual games (in other systems) with purposely mismatched point totals and victory conditions and had quite a lot of fun.

As to your last point, some of the players in my area have looked at modifying some of the Battle cards for use with Bolt Action. A community should strive to include more people rather than turn them away. After all, we should want to have more players to keep the game profitable for FFG, and to give each of us more potential opponents.

2 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

That's one thing: if it was more competitive to take mixes of heavy weapons, the games might look cooler. I don't understand why Z-6's would dominate personally. I've never seen one get a single hit.

Well, for one thing, it's an extra body. For another, the special weapon can be fired every turn without requiring a refresh (so more opportunity to make it's points back), and the more dice you roll, the better the chances of getting a hit and therefore a suppression. The Z-6 is also roughly equivalent to firing a complete Stormtrooper squad at the unit in addition to the Rebel Troopers unit.

There's far too many cards in all of FFG's games. But not as many cards as tokens

8 hours ago, AintNoPoser said:

Wrong! There's no true initiative in Legion because it swaps back and forth between players throughout the game. If you're bidding for a specific player, you're playing the game wrong. It's already tactical in the beginning with set up. Also right now it's pretty impossible to just run more vehicles than troopers, and many have said maxing troopers is the way to go, because it is a trooper focused game. I do agree that FFG will increase the army points. One hint is the new escalation league for this season.

But if you want the game to be like Armada, then go play Armada. It wasn't fun having to bid and limiting yourself to only 3 cards, 1 per objective type. Legion gives us options which makes it more difficult for both players. System is fine as it is now. It's also what, 4 months old. Give it time.

I heartily disagree- Blue player can choose what side of the board they want, and they can leverage the Battle Deck somewhat to get rid of objectives they don't want. Having first elimination is excellent as well when you can fork your opponent's next decision.

I always try to play for Red. Reacting is a huge advantage in this game. I usually have my opponents out activated which means I get to counter deploy. Also I've been able to screw my opponent during set up by having last say in choosing cards. I don't care about initiative because it swaps back and forth and can be stolen either by command card or a simple dice roll. I tend to not care about setting terrain up to much because you can still counter as Red player.

I also feel if you are bidding too much, you're missing parts of your army that could help. Overall, Legion isn't a game that you need to bid for. It's a typical wargame where you need to max your army out.

I dunno... If army size is close in number of activations and terrain is fairly balanced, then red can be worth it.

On the other hand if your army has a decisive advantage or disadvantage in activations, or is designed to compensate for fewer activations, or the terrain has features on one side that you really want... well then blue is worth it.

On most lists I think there's a fudge of 3-5 points where a grappling hook or impact grenade more might be nice, but not be worth the advantages above.

14 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

If you're looking for a bigger game, Legion has rules for Grand Army, or find an opponent that also wants to play at 1000. To be honest, the purpose of a points total is to force the decision of what toys will you bring, and to try to limit the amount of time the game should take. Which is more important for Tournaments than casual play to be honest. Most 800 point games I've participated in and seen have taken longer than 2 hours. I will be interested in how many games actually complete at NOVA vs how many end due to time.

That's kinda what I'm trying to say~

I want point limits that make hard choices, but...

On the one hand 800 feels like too much time for a tourney.

On the other hand...

800 feels like too restrictive. It goes beyond, "Choose which toys to focus on this battle, leave two or three behind," and is more like, "You can only bring 3 out of your 10 toys, hope you get to play lots of games otherwise yoor gonna be painting lottsa plastic to sit on the shelf!!!".

1 hour ago, CaptainRocket said:

800 feels like too restrictive. It goes beyond, "Choose which toys to focus on this battle, leave two or three behind," and is more like, "You can only bring 3 out of your 10 toys, hope you get to play lots of games otherwise yoor gonna be painting lottsa plastic to sit on the shelf!!!".

How many units typically sit on a shelf for X-wing, Armada, 40k, Bolt Action, Warmachine, etc? How many units end up relegated to a shelf (or sold on eBay) later when the latest and greatest is released in other wargames?

As FFG releases more and more units, even 1000 points won't enable you to field a list including the majority of the toys. The Force Org chart is one of the biggest limitations, especially as both sides will have 3 Commanders in a few months, but will only be able to field 1-2 for Standard and 1-3 for Grand Army.

I understand your desire, which is why in Bolt Action I've made some weird lists to fit in different tanks/artillery/other random model I have built and want to put on a table. I also may end up using Legion models for RPG minis just to get an additional use for them, or use them in a Star Wars conversion for another game requiring more infantry in a single unit.