That's just it, though. Imperial forces can pretty casually bring Impact in their lists because those things that have Impact are already strong in general. Rebels have to make a more deliberate effort. Another point: there's currently no way to stack 2 aim tokens on a T-47, something that would help it immensely. Maybe it needs a pilot upgrade that says "When you receive an aim token, gain an aim token," or something like that (Luke Skywalker pilot?)

4 hours ago, NoShieldsAllGuts said:

That's just it, though. Imperial forces can pretty casually bring Impact in their lists because those things that have Impact are already strong in general. Rebels have to make a more deliberate effort. Another point: there's currently no way to stack 2 aim tokens on a T-47, something that would help it immensely. Maybe it needs a pilot upgrade that says "When you receive an aim token, gain an aim token," or something like that (Luke Skywalker pilot?)

Since Luke is a commander, it would probably be Hobbie or Wes Janson. Maybe Dak Ralter for a gunner slot. But in my experience, it's not that the speeder doesn't hit hard enough, it's that it can be focused down fairly easily. The main weapon is the most powerful ranged weapon currently in the game.

39 minutes ago, Qwrety77 said:

...It's not that the speeder doesn't hit hard enough, it's that it can be focused down fairly easily...

Well, I suspect you are right, and that is never going to be fixed by an aim token.

I think dodge, nimble or maybe a pilot that can dodge critical hits would be a better form of upgrade for the T-47.

14 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I stopped playing when I had 3 Z6 squads+1 in heavy cover fail to kill 1 Z6 squad+1 in heavy cover. Over 3 rounds, my squads were attacking it, and it was on the last one that I finally pushed 1 damage through. Meanwhile, his squad rolled 7/9/8 damage, wiping my squad 1 at a time, often leaving 1 or 2 troops alive. I had to divert Luke just to kill that squad, but at that point, the game was already lost.

Yeah, I know how you feel. I've twice had a full health Luke get a charge and Son of Skywalker on a wounded Vader. With an aim token it's effectively 20 dice in a row but I didn't cause more than 3 damage each time, while Vader used Master of Evil to collapse a flank while he chops his son in half.

In your case you had a pretty cinematic battle where a small band of desperate survivors fended off an enemy three times bigger than them, drawing away a Jedi so that they could sacrifice themselves for victory. No-one planned for it, it's just a story that evolved through the game play which wouldn't have happened if results were more predictable. It's pretty Rogue Oneish- It was a Star Wars themed moment in a Star Wars themed game which some people enjoy.

Still, like I say, it's a matter of preference. Some people like list building, some people like plans and predictability, some people bet everything on a chance cube. Some people juggle geese.

8 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Also some of you are clearly just cursed to be statistical outliers. You should consult your local wise man or woman and have the curse removed. There's only one crit icon on the dice guys, it's only supposed to come up roughly 12.5% of the time.

I find that charging up the dice with chi and releasing them toward the dice box in a Street Fighteresque 'Hadouken' sometimes helps.
Not Shoryuken though. Dice go everywhere.

4 hours ago, Amanal said:

Well, I suspect you are right, and that is never going to be fixed by an aim token.

I think dodge, nimble or maybe a pilot that can dodge critical hits would be a better form of upgrade for the T-47.

Agreed. The only times I've seen an airspeeder be useful is when it's played patiently (I've only played against it). I think the armor keyword makes it tempting to use as an assault vehicle, but it just isn't good at that. Same as with speeder bikes, I think dodge should be used more than aim, unless you're confident that you can't be effectively counterattacked.

13 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Future upgrades or units will probably synergize really well with them, may even grant them new or better abilities which reward people who know how to play them.

This is what I suspect as well. It's tempering my acquisitions quite a bit.

17 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Have to remember most people are just using whatever terrain they had.

Generally in 40k, tall terrain isnt needed as anything big enough to not be hidden by your typical 6" tall or less walls is more than durable enough to take a beating, or fast enough to only get shot at a couple times before getting locked in melee.

Depends. In 40k we use very tall scenery because we want those things you mentioned to get their own LOS blocked entirely some of the time, to protect other units.

Also you usually can agree on certain scenery rules before the game: for reasons of storage and transportation, our model trees, as gamers, are generally shrubs in truth. Average trees out in "the wild" are several stories high. So you can reasonably declare before the game that a section of forest blocks LOS, period, end of story, all the time, every unit. If you wanted to.

It's also not hard or expensive to make a couple rocky outcroppings from styrofoam that is taller than a T-47's flying stand.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Depends. In 40k we use very tall scenery because we want those things you mentioned to get their own LOS blocked entirely some of the time, to protect other units.

Also you usually can agree on certain scenery rules before the game: for reasons of storage and transportation, our model trees, as gamers, are generally shrubs in truth. Average trees out in "the wild" are several stories high. So you can reasonably declare before the game that a section of forest blocks LOS, period, end of story, all the time, every unit. If you wanted to.

It's also not hard or expensive to make a couple rocky outcroppings from styrofoam that is taller than a T-47's flying stand.

My group has been using tree area terrain. It makes up about 1/4 to 1/2 of the terrain we use, and it blocks LOS through it, but provides light/heavy cover if you are in it. Sometimes it will be difficult terrain as well, depending on how the dice roll when we determine what the characteristics are. That way, we have terrain that completely blocks LOS, but does not slow the game down because you are running around pieces. Instead, you walk into it and can contribute to the fight.

9 hours ago, Qwrety77 said:

Since Luke is a commander, it would probably be Hobbie or Wes Janson. Maybe Dak Ralter for a gunner slot. But in my experience, it's not that the speeder doesn't hit hard enough, it's that it can be focused down fairly easily. The main weapon is the most powerful ranged weapon currently in the game.

The main weapon actually is not the most powerful ranged weapon in the game; it has three reds and three blacks, sure, but it’s actually the same output as a unit of speeder bikes because it doesn’t have surge.

You have to look at everything as attack pools. The most powerful attack pool in the game is actually Fleets (with either heavy upgrade) and an AT-ST with either of its non-mortar upgrades.

That is all kind of a specious argument though, simply because you have to pay points for everything you take. The airspeeder’s main weapon is actually one of the most inefficient sources of damage in the game, because it is 175 points. So the real question is, what sort of dice can I get for 175 points from other stuff?

Here is the very short list of things that are less point efficient than the Ap11 double laser (literally everything else is more, including naked (!) Stormtroopers):

Veers’ E-11

Vader’s saber throw

flamethrowers against one target

Naked AT-ST

12 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

The main weapon actually is not the most powerful ranged weapon in the game; it has three reds and three blacks, sure, but it’s actually the same output as a unit of speeder bikes because it doesn’t have surge.

You have to look at everything as attack pools. The most powerful attack pool in the game is actually Fleets (with either heavy upgrade) and an AT-ST with either of its non-mortar upgrades.

That is all kind of a specious argument though, simply because you have to pay points for everything you take. The airspeeder’s main weapon is actually one of the most inefficient sources of damage in the game, because it is 175 points. So the real question is, what sort of dice can I get for 175 points from other stuff?

Here is the very short list of things that are less point efficient than the Ap11 double laser (literally everything else is more, including naked (!) Stormtroopers):

Veers’ E-11

Vader’s saber throw

flamethrowers against one target

Naked AT-ST

Seems like the T-47 needs to be considered in the same way as cavalry in the age of musketry. Harassment (handing out suppression), chasing down and destroying an already damaged enemy before it can regroup, moving around quickly to support an infantry attack from a different angle, and charging around to wipe out enemy artillery. I strongly suspect that you aren't paying points for this things damage or armor, you are paying for its speed. Speed which admittedly may not be that helpful at this moment in the very young history of the release schedule. But I think reducing it all to damage pools and such is the wrong way to look at it.

Except maybe harassment, none of these things can easily be done by a much slower unit, regardless of how efficient it's damage dice to points cost ratio may be. Once E-webs are on store shelves the T-47 may be a better, since they will finally have the cavalry's favorite target: artillery.

The only thing I see that is unlike blackpowder era cavalry, the more terrain, the better, as far as repulsor cav is concerned.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

My group has been using tree area terrain. It makes up about 1/4 to 1/2 of the terrain we use, and it blocks LOS through it, but provides light/heavy cover if you are in it. Sometimes it will be difficult terrain as well, depending on how the dice roll when we determine what the characteristics are. That way, we have terrain that completely blocks LOS, but does not slow the game down because you are running around pieces. Instead, you walk into it and can contribute to the fight.

Does it also impede shooting out of it into clear terrain? According to my understand of the rules it would unless your unit commander's base is touching the edge.

6 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Does it also impede shooting out of it into clear terrain? According to my understand of the rules it would unless your unit commander's base is touching the edge.

If the unit is inside of the terrain, it can shoot out with no penalty. If the unit is inside, it gains heavy cover and enemy units have LOS of it. If a unit traces LOS through the terrain, LOS is blocked.

We made this up before the rules update so I'm not sure how it stands up to the RRG. But for the most part, the rules aren't precise and encourages players to make their own terrain characteristics.

Its a sound rule since like you said earlier trees that arent just a random lone tree rend to cover a lot of visibility up since theyre so large and tightly packed.

I mean escaping into a wooded area is a pretty common tactic when trying to stay hidden....

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

If the unit is inside of the terrain, it can shoot out with no penalty. If the unit is inside, it gains heavy cover and enemy units have LOS of it. If a unit traces LOS through the terrain, LOS is blocked.

We made this up before the rules update so I'm not sure how it stands up to the RRG. But for the most part, the rules aren't precise and encourages players to make their own terrain characteristics.

This is usually how we handle woods as well. I was just curious if we're weirdos. I don't mind the idea that the commander needs to be at the edge to get full benefits from firing out of the woods though, it kind of makes sense.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Seems like the T-47 needs to be considered in the same way as cavalry in the age of musketry. Harassment (handing out suppression), chasing down and destroying an already damaged enemy before it can regroup, moving around quickly to support an infantry attack from a different angle, and charging around to wipe out enemy artillery. I strongly suspect that you aren't paying points for this things damage or armor, you are paying for its speed. Speed which admittedly may not be that helpful at this moment in the very young history of the release schedule. But I think reducing it all to damage pools and such is the wrong way to look at it.

Except maybe harassment, none of these things can easily be done by a much slower unit, regardless of how efficient it's damage dice to points cost ratio may be. Once E-webs are on store shelves the T-47 may be a better, since they will finally have the cavalry's favorite target: artillery.

The only thing I see that is unlike blackpowder era cavalry, the more terrain, the better, as far as repulsor cav is concerned.

I agree, but it’s useful and important to know that it really just doesn’t hit that hard, and that what you are paying for is the speed.

As you said, I’m not sure being fast is enough by itself to make a unit useful and cost effective.

12 hours ago, Qwrety77 said:

Since Luke is a commander, it would probably be Hobbie or Wes Janson. Maybe Dak Ralter for a gunner slot. But in my experience, it's not that the speeder doesn't hit hard enough, it's that it can be focused down fairly easily. The main weapon is the most powerful ranged weapon currently in the game.

Pardon, my thought from earlier was incomplete. Sure, the main issue is being focused down, but that is the case with T-47s and bikes, this problem is not unique.

Re: offense, Orkimedes already responded to this point with the actual math. To add to his point, we know from other games that even if you have a bunch of high quality dice, the lack of ability to modify them makes them not as potent. You have a dice pool of six, three of which can be cancelled by cover and dodge; it is just so painful to see those high quality dice roll blank and the chance to have two aim tokens would mitigate that pain significantly.

2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

The main weapon actually is not the most powerful ranged weapon in the game; it has three reds and three blacks, sure, but it’s actually the same output as a unit of speeder bikes because it doesn’t have surge.

I was using a technicality to prove a point. The bikes are technically 2 weapons. That, admittedly, was being pedantic for no good reason, but hey, what else is the internet for?

2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Except maybe harassment, none of these things can easily be done by a much slower unit, regardless of how efficient it's damage dice to points cost ratio may be. Once E-webs are on store shelves the T-47 may be a better, since they will finally have the cavalry's favorite target: artillery.

I definitely agree that the T-47 will get better as more things are released. More "artillery" and more strong melee units means more juicy snowspeeder targets. Too many lists are filled with good counters right now.

More melee units would be nice since right now the immune melee is kinda...pointless

Only luke/vader even have a melee they'd prefer to do over their ranged attack. The RG are the first generic unit that technically prefers melee (RB vs BB dice) but even then, not that big a difference.

I still find it funny that theyre not immune to grenades. Yeah sure let me just lob this grenade straight into the air as that speeder zips by 20-40ft off the ground and have no possible chance of the grenade missing and falling right back on my head.
I get they arent a full fledged aircraft, so-to-speak, so they arent hundreds of feet or thousands in the air while they attack. But they arent just off the ground either....

I think Immune: Blast is supposed to sub in for some kind of specific Grenade Immunity, if you manage to hit one with an Impact Grenade baseball throw it should count.

Immune: Blast makes you immune to that keyword, not the attack itself.

3 hours ago, Orkimedes said:

I agree, but it’s useful and important to know that it really just doesn’t hit that hard, and that what you are paying for is the speed.

As you said, I’m not sure being fast is enough by itself to make a unit useful and cost effective.

Speed and maneuverability and consistent damage output even as it takes damage.

Don't think of the airspeeder as a Tank (high firepower, high armor, low mobility) like the ATST, think of it as an attack helicopter (high firepower, low armor, high mobility).

Alternatively, don't think of it as the Rebel ATST, think of it as the Rebel answer to speeder bikes - two units of bikes stapled together that have to shoot at the same target, but don't lose output as they take damage.

Yes it's less output at the start of the game, but if they're both flown properly (stay out of multiple arcs of incoming fire), then the airspeeder will be putting out way more dice by the end game.

1 hour ago, CaptainRocket said:

Speed and maneuverability and consistent damage output even as it takes damage.

Don't think of the airspeeder as a Tank (high firepower, high armor, low mobility) like the ATST, think of it as an attack helicopter (high firepower, low armor, high mobility).

Alternatively, don't think of it as the Rebel ATST, think of it as the Rebel answer to speeder bikes - two units of bikes stapled together that have to shoot at the same target, but don't lose output as they take damage.

Yes it's less output at the start of the game, but if they're both flown properly (stay out of multiple arcs of incoming fire), then the airspeeder will be putting out way more dice by the end game.

I want to love it, really, it’s a beautiful model...

If it were two speeder bike units stapled together, it would do double the damage it currently does.

I’ve tested it a lot. Maybe I just suck with it, but ever since I replaced it with 175 points of literally anything else, I’ve been doing much better in all of my games.

You bring up a good point about damage degradation. I want to try and sort out the best way to address that from a statistical perspective, because right now there isn’t really a good clean way to do it.

Now I'm salivating at the thought of a T-47 whose main gun is 4 white, 4 red, 4 black, surge to hit, Impact 4....

On 7/24/2018 at 1:11 AM, Katarn said:

In your case you had a pretty cinematic battle where a small band of desperate survivors fended off an enemy three times bigger than them, drawing away a Jedi so that they could sacrifice themselves for victory. No-one planned for it, it's just a story that evolved through the game play which wouldn't have happened if results were more predictable. It's pretty Rogue Oneish- It was a Star Wars themed moment in a Star Wars themed game which some people enjoy.

Still, like I say, it's a matter of preference. Some people like list building, some people like plans and predictability, some people bet everything on a chance cube. Some people juggle geese.

I find that charging up the dice with chi and releasing them toward the dice box in a Street Fighteresque 'Hadouken' sometimes helps.
Not Shoryuken though. Dice go everywhere.

All of this... so well said!

1 hour ago, Gengis Jon said:

Still, like I say, it's a matter of preference. Some people like list building, some people like plans and predictability, some people bet everything on a chance cube. Some people juggle geese. 

I like your style. I personally view this game as a competition to see who can best mitigate the effects of luck on their army. Also, juggling geese should replace strength of schedule in tournaments. Wrong universe, but who doesn't like a little crossover?