Heh imagine how quick our view would change if suddenly they release a faq going "It has twin guns, you should be firing 12 dice unless one of them is destroyed" lol

Think that'd be broken though...just a tad

5 hours ago, WAC47 said:

cover 1 triggering very rarely against most weapons with impact

FYI, cover 1 triggers before impact. So you can remove a hit before it can be changed to a crit.

Speeder bikes are great when there is a gang of them. Just one bike doesn't have a big impact. The Airspeeder is similar. I needs to be striped of arsenal, given cover 2 and dropped by 50 points so two of them is feasible. With a wing of them flying around, they would be quite scary.

1 minute ago, Mep said:

FYI, cover 1 triggers before impact. So you can remove a hit before it can be changed to a crit.

Right! I misspoke. I just meant that most weapons with Impact roll higher average damage than their impact value. I'm particularly thinking of Speeder Bikes and the DLT-19. Usually they'll have a spare hit to convert after Cover 1 cancels a hit, which results in the same amount of damage getting through regardless. So even though Cover 1 does technically do something on armored vehicles, it's doesn't give them the same survivability increase that Cover 1 does on non-armored units.

yeah thats usually my luck too.

Get hit with 2 crits 4 hits impact1. I have cover1 and a dodge token...but it literally does nothing since its still 3crits in the end.

I think if the T47 could cancel crits with Dodge and Cover, then it'd be a whole lot more survivable.

4 hours ago, Mep said:

The Airspeeder is similar. I needs to be striped of arsenal, given cover 2 and dropped by 50 points so two of them is feasible.

Nimble would be an interesting change too.

I use arsenal a few times toward the midgame. I set up an attack run, use the compulsory move to cause suppression and then shoot my harpoon at the troopers I've overshot while firing the main guns at a separate unit further way.

The speeder tends to survive as the rest of the force are assaulting the objectives- a speeder that has already activated isn't an immediate threat.

This is only going to be more reliable once I have Solo's 'sorry about the mess' and an HQ uplink.

I got brutalized by two naked Airspeeders just recently. My empire list can easily handle one of those, but two is a whole other story.

I think giving them Cover 2 would make a big difference. It would give them a lot of protection vs. low dice/high impact weapons and have a greater chance of doing something vs. high dice/low impact.

Speeder Bikes have the advantage of being relatively small and low to the ground so you can shoot and then zip away to get cover or out of LoS. The big tall airspeeder can almost never pull that off, so giving it automatic heavy cover would really let it shine. Also it would just match the Speeder 2 keyword. Bikes have Speeder 1 and Cover 1, give the airspeeder Speeder 2 and Cover 2

On 7/18/2018 at 6:14 AM, Vineheart01 said:

At minimum, Dodge should be able to cancel it. I mean, its an action or a one-shot order to get the dang thing, why isnt it super strong? Half the time i get a dodge token i dont even get to use it.

That’s why Dodge should be “reroll up to two defense dice” instead.

1 hour ago, BadMotivator said:

That’s why Dodge should be “reroll up to two defense dice” instead.

So.. stormtroopers would be better at dodging than rebel troopers?

I don't agree with you there.

Actually a good fix would be a new Pilot besides Wedge. Maybe along the lines of:

Exhaust-> "You may exhaust this card when you activate to gain Cover 1 for the rest of the round"

5 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

That’s why Dodge should be “reroll up to two defense dice” instead.

I like dodge the way it is now. It is designed for trooper units mostly. Vehicles with armor get way less benefit from it, but that actually makes sense since you don't see AT-AT's and AT-RT's dancing around dodging shots all nimbly bimbly. The problem is the Airspeeder probably should get a good benefit from it. It would have been cool if it had been made with a keyword that allowed it to spend a dodge to re-roll two dice as per your suggestion.

I think the T-47 needs Veers as a commander. The command that grants a dodge and allows it to cancel crits would be huge and allow the T-47 to become more of a brawler with Wedge and the buzzer.

Aside from that, I think the game will be better in general with more reliable dice rolls. In Armada, playing a large ship without any dice modification is crazy. You need a way to fix bad dice rolls, and I think the T-47 is suffering from that. Something that allows defense dice rerolls, like Hans ability, would help keep it alive.

I’m excited to see how future pilots impact the T-47. They have left plenty of design room open on it.

The Armored keyword is just overvalued, which is why i said dodge should work on crits.

With all the impacts and natural crits and Armored vehicles having white defense dice (and poor ATRT with no surge on it) they actually feel EASIER to harm than regular troopers. Stormtroopers have red defense so 50-50 dodge vs 1/3 or 1/6 odds and Rebels have Nimble to cancel multiple hits from multiple attacks. Both are also much lower profile and are more difficult to multi-attack.

Nothing more disheartening than having one trooper unit with a DLT fire at an armored vehicle, only to see the troopers naturally roll 3-4 crits anyway. For a 1/8th chance it sure freakin' happens alot. Ive had that happen far, far more than ive seen an attack just plink off me because it was all Hits.

2 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Aside from that, I think the game will be better in general with more reliable dice rolls. In Armada, playing a large ship without any dice modification is crazy.

I get the impression that dice in the game are designed to not be reliable as part of the design philosophy.

The pace of a capital ship battle is much slower than that of a skirmish on the ground and communication is generally good between vessels that size. Armada gives the player much greater control over orders than either X-Wing or Legion, while also giving a greater degree of dice modification. The ships are firing artillery sized weapons at massive targets at, in space terms, point blank range- something's going to get hit. On the other hand, if firing a handful of automatic rifles at dug in troops behind a wall, chance is what you're relying on.

On the other hand, Legion has been made with the chaos of a battlefield in mind in mind. The random nature of the command and control aspect alone shows this.

I think of Armada as being a case of creating a superior plan to your opponent and reacting to how their plan disrupts your own, whereas Legion involves taking the initiative and reacting to circumstances on the fly. It's the difference between the command skills of an admiral and those of a platoon leader.

Obviously there are options you can take to mitigate the chaos, but one of the core principles of the game is that your success is based on how you deal with elements outside your control.

Not that this helps the airspeeder much. But then again the best armour in the 'verse is not getting shot at and the speeder has the maneuverability to use this.

1 hour ago, Katarn said:

I get the impression that dice in the game are designed to not be reliable as part of the design philosophy.

The pace of a capital ship battle is much slower than that of a skirmish on the ground and communication is generally good between vessels that size. Armada gives the player much greater control over orders than either X-Wing or Legion, while also giving a greater degree of dice modification. The ships are firing artillery sized weapons at massive targets at, in space terms, point blank range- something's going to get hit. On the other hand, if firing a handful of automatic rifles at dug in troops behind a wall, chance is what you're relying on.

On the other hand, Legion has been made with the chaos of a battlefield in mind in mind. The random nature of the command and control aspect alone shows this.

I think of Armada as being a case of creating a superior plan to your opponent and reacting to how their plan disrupts your own, whereas Legion involves taking the initiative and reacting to circumstances on the fly. It's the difference between the command skills of an admiral and those of a platoon leader.

Obviously there are options you can take to mitigate the chaos, but one of the core principles of the game is that your success is based on how you deal with elements outside your control.

Not that this helps the airspeeder much. But then again the best armour in the 'verse is not getting shot at and the speeder has the maneuverability to use this.

You can rationalize the dice rolls how ever you want. But when I lose a game because I can't roll defense dice or I can't remove enemy units because I keep rolling blanks, it's a negative play experience. All the maneuvering and tactics in the world mean nothing when my opponent can block every shot. I don't care if the dice "simulate" a battlefield. I want the game to be enjoyable because one side isn't curb stomping the other.

I stopped playing when I had 3 Z6 squads+1 in heavy cover fail to kill 1 Z6 squad+1 in heavy cover. Over 3 rounds, my squads were attacking it, and it was on the last one that I finally pushed 1 damage through. Meanwhile, his squad rolled 7/9/8 damage, wiping my squad 1 at a time, often leaving 1 or 2 troops alive. I had to divert Luke just to kill that squad, but at that point, the game was already lost.

So I just used one for the first time. I usually play Empire, I've played against one before and have had success against it because I focused my DLT-19 fire on it. My opponent did not do the same and my T-47 effectively knocked out 3 squads of Stormtroopers.

Obviously my sample size is small but I found success with it. I used information on what works and what doesn't for the speeder from what many others on this forum have learned and shared. I didn't try to alpha strike a big target and leave the speeder exposed. I had it advance (as much as possible) with the rest of my units. I didn't try to double arc units at the expense of defensibility.

Overall I like the unit, but it is a bit expensive. If I could change one thing I would switch the white defence die with surge to a red defence die without surge. It's supposed to be zipping around and thus a bit more well defended.

22 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Speeder Bikes have the advantage of being relatively small and low to the ground so you can shoot and then zip away to get cover or out of LoS. The big tall airspeeder can almost never pull that off (emphasis mine)

I think you're not playing with enough terrain - The couple times I used it I've found I can pull that trick off as reliably or or even more so than with the bikes cause of how it can leap over pretty much anything.

Also the bikes really want that aim, whereas the speeder doesn't need it.

Have to remember most people are just using whatever terrain they had.

Generally in 40k, tall terrain isnt needed as anything big enough to not be hidden by your typical 6" tall or less walls is more than durable enough to take a beating, or fast enough to only get shot at a couple times before getting locked in melee.

Legion does actually want really tall terrain, im actually looking into a solution to that without obstructing the game view in general (i'm thinking just thick pillars or trees with scaffolding between them). But nobody has that, or of they do its a thin spire not a large obstruction.

At my FLGS the only tall terrain we got (as in, taller than 6") is those thin but tall walls 40k uses or a couple of random spires that you cant even put a model on top because its so narrow. Heck most of the terrain barely even covers the ATRT, often the pilot head is still looking over the wall.

Its not just my FLGS either alot of my friends that play elsewhere are in the same boat.

Even the "proper terrain" that FFG was showing the game off with is way too short, even if it was thematic looking.

On 7/18/2018 at 3:57 PM, Mep said:

...so two of them is feasible. With a wing of them flying around, they would be quite scary.

Why is this? Everyone keeps saying that one isn't worthwhile but 2 are good. Is it just that they move so fast they get isolated? If something else could keep up to support them would 1 be better? I'm thinking the Atgar might be designed with long enough range to do that.

35 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Why is this? Everyone keeps saying that one isn't worthwhile but 2 are good. Is it just that they move so fast they get isolated? If something else could keep up to support them would 1 be better? I'm thinking the Atgar might be designed with long enough range to do that.

It is hard to guarantee line of sight from a different angle. Speeder bikes are deadly in groups of 3, because it takes 3 to take out a full unit. One will wound but not kill and then get taken out. With 3 there are a lot more dice and more hit points. These are fast moving flanking units. A weak flanking maneuver is a distraction and nothing more, which is all an airspeeder is right now. To put it another way, two of airspeeders could move from out of the field of combat, into a key position and then take out a key unit, allowing your other forces to move up. One airspeed just doesn't do it, therefore useless.

46 minutes ago, Mep said:

It is hard to guarantee line of sight from a different angle. Speeder bikes are deadly in groups of 3, because it takes 3 to take out a full unit. One will wound but not kill and then get taken out. With 3 there are a lot more dice and more hit points. These are fast moving flanking units. A weak flanking maneuver is a distraction and nothing more, which is all an airspeeder is right now. To put it another way, two of airspeeders could move from out of the field of combat, into a key position and then take out a key unit, allowing your other forces to move up. One airspeed just doesn't do it, therefore useless.

I think people try to use bikes and speeders as heavy breakthrough cav instead of light flankers.

In my opinion bikes and speeders should not be used to plow straight ahead and be followed up by your key units - that's something AT-STs and AT-RT swarms can do. They're just too expensive and list sizes are too small.

Instead they should hang back and hit weak points once the enemy is engaged, or force the enemy to keep from concentrating fire by threatening a flank.

Reading this thread, I'm reminded of a thought I've had since the beginning, that Airspeeders are kind of a high risk/reward unit, or are a high skill floor unit. People with patience and dedication can figure out how to apply them correctly, but this doesn't necessarily jump out as an intrinsic value of the unit unlike how Support and Corps units have.

Some of this discrepancy I think is because the T-47 was probably pushed out a little early - to make sure Rebels and Imps have a balanced and Iconic starting line up they put the basically one really recognizable unit they could have as a Heavy out there even though they clearly know about a lot of unit types way ahead of time (Special Forces rank in the original rules, and yet Special Forces aren't even out yet!). Future upgrades or units will probably synergize really well with them, may even grant them new or better abilities which reward people who know how to play them. Or maybe Rebels just need a vehicle focused commander, pre-Veers there were a lot of people concerned about the AT-ST being such a point sink with Vader also on the table, but both Veers cost and some of his other stuff can help imperial vehicles in general out pretty good.

Also some of you are clearly just cursed to be statistical outliers. You should consult your local wise man or woman and have the curse removed. There's only one crit icon on the dice guys, it's only supposed to come up roughly 12.5% of the time.