How do YOU think your Great Clan views other Great Clans?

By Manchu, in L5R LCG: Lore Discussion

A big part of my enjoyment of L5R is thinking about the relationships between the Great Clans and how Rokugan's samurai stereotype one another (and themselves, honestly) within their very self-conscious cultural context. It is a very factionalized, judgmental setting, which is a big part of the fun. For me, this is the biggest "hook" of the IP: that I can strongly identify with an in-setting POV as a window into its world. This is the (very judgey!) way I imagine the other Great Clans from my take on a Lion-centric bias:

  • Crab's impressive skill and perseverance are tainted by a morbid sense of self pity; it is difficult to completely respect Crab.
  • Crane sometimes pushes elegance too far, into decadence, but they create beauty that justifies the Empire.
  • Dragon comes off better, and certainly more clearly, individually than as a whole.
  • Phoenix is like a spoiled child - not only in the negative sense, but also in the sense of being the object of indulgence.
  • Scorpion lies so convincingly because they have lost the way back to truth.
  • Unicorn openness to foreign things reveals a lack of meaning and confidence in themselves.

Overall, I think Lion perceives there being "inside clans" and "outside clans." The former define the essence of Imperial cultures - these would be Crane, Lion, and Phoenix. The latter are conflicted and marginalized - these would be Crab, Scorpion, and Unicorn. Dragon is somewhat liminal; in some ways, essential and iconic but, in other ways, skeptical and out of place. What I would call the "inside clans" produce the essential features of Imperial culture: civilization, learning, and honor. These are the "static" or conservative strains of Rokugan. The more flexible, practical, or even liberal elements are exemplified by the "outside clans" - but, from a Lion perspective, this makes it tempting to look down on them. They tend to say, we make your arrogance possible; but we would reply, without our cultivation, you'd have no justification for your vulgarities.

Edited by Manchu

I would agree with your few of "inside clans" and "outside clans", but I think it is somewhat more fluid than that. In the current setting, Scorpion might even be an "inside clan" as the status quo serves them well and the stronger their position is, the less they have to act like Scorpions (until they become so dominant that everyone allies against them and they have to feign weakness again) and the more they define Rokugani culture as opposed to the Crane.

I think Dragon POVs on the other Clans could easily be summarized with the parable of the blind men and the elephant. They all have but a shard of Truth, but unlike the Dragon they do not know it or acknowledge their lack of the rest. The Dragon is humble enough to question. Which I suppose can come off as very patronizing, so we stay in our mountain homes instead.

Obviously, the Dragon would not see Rokugani society in terms of "inside clans" and "outside clans".

Judgey Crab time, just for fun:

Crane: beautiful women and deadly swordsmen, but so self involved they don't even know there's other things going on in the Empire that doesn't include them. Gotta respect those Daidoji though.

Dragon: not to be underestimated but leave them to eat rocks in their far northern mountain homes.

Lion: impressive and deadly. Good thing the emperor keeps them on a short leash like a good dog, I'd hate for the Crab to have show them what 1000 years of warfare looks like.

Phoenix: powerful and righteous. Lend us your might on the wall and we could cleanse this world of Jigoku's taint... if you weren't so scared of your own powers.

Scorpion: they serve their purpose- keeping the other clans weak and fighting amongst them selves. As long as they don't get in the way of the Crab's duty, they're okay in my book... just don't take your eyes off your sake while they're around.

Unicorn: outsiders just like us. I envy their carefree spirits and since most other clans ignore them, I feel they get to experience a freedom few others do in the Empire.

Hmm, I'll give this a go for Phoenix.

Crab: Where we protect the empire's soul, they protect the body from corruption. It's an important role, but we need to keep an eye on their kuni. They walk a dangerous line in their studies of the taint and they might make the mistake of believing there's such a thing as a "necessary" evil.

Crane: Masters of the arts and politics. We have a lot in common between us, even if we seek harmony in different ways. They shouldn't be underestimated though, their skirmishes with the Lion prove they can and will use force of arms. Best we not discuss the unfortunate tsunami incident with them...

Dragon: They hold a great deal of mystical knowledge that we are willing to acknowledge, but they are too lax in their views. Their indifference to the dangers the Perfect Land Sect heresy present to the empire will no doubt bring trouble to the empire. They're also too accepting of the Unicorn's foreign ways and should be careful bringing them into the Dragon fold, even if they are having a shortage of new births.

Lion: A proud and fierce clan, though far too thirsty for war. They would no doubt take our land from us in an instant if they ever suspected we were too weak to hold them off. We surely cannot trust them, even with the recent marriage between their champion and lady Kaede. Hopefully our lady can be a boon to us with our warmongering neighbors and keep them from our doorstep during this elemental crisis.

Scorpion: Bayushi may have been Shiba's twin, but our cousins are so different from us. It would not be surprising if every misdeed and criminal plot within the empire fell under the shadow of one Scorpion or another. Still, these faults are vices of the body and don't seem to bear any harm to the spiritual well-being of the empire. They may prove a beneficial ally at the court should need arise. We will still remain cautious in our associations with them, however.

Unicorn: I'm not sure which is worse, their outright disrespect to the kami with their gaijin ways of forcing service from the revered spirits, or the abomination that is their meishodo magic, binding spirits in such a ghastly way. It was a mistake to not ban meishodo, and a greater one to spread its corruption to the Seppun. This will almost certainly end in disaster for the empire, and our only hope is that when the truth of their magic is revealed, we will be able to prevent serious harm from befalling our empire.

Phoenix Mark II! And for fun, the alternate opinion of my most established Phoenix character in the old lore, Isawa Taisho, will be presented in italics when opinions differ... (Taisho was something of an oddball- a Phoenix Jade Magistrate who had a much more "Empire-as-a-whole" view on the issues confronting him than is typical- he'd spent so much time in the lands of other clans that he was almost diametrically opposed to the clan's party line on several issues of substance, and always, always critical of the Council's methods and approach)

Crab : We might actually understand them better than anyone else does, but that doesn't make our relationship harmonious. They perform a vital function, but their single-minded focus on their duty can cause them to lose sight of what they're fighting for, and the fact that they live in violence day in and day out makes them quite difficult for us to relate to on a social level. Still, if they speak on their area of expertise, we should listen. The stakes are too high not to.

Oh, the Crab. They get things done, and the things they get done are vital. They more than pull their weight, and if they haven't got time for frippery, who can blame them? If we guard the soul, they guard the body, and that alone is more than enough to make them worth helping.

Crane : Grace, poise, elegance... and a sadly limited view of the world. While they're not exactly impious, they focus so much on political ends and building favor networks... one wonders if they remember why they do it all... Still, they value peace.... most of the time. Still, be wary of being drawn into aiding them on matters of purely worldly import.

Not bad, on the whole, although their tendency to try to bludgeon you to death with ikebana or thinly-veiled insults when they lack the stature to duel you can be tedious. So used to getting their way with a polite smile and some kindly words that being told "no" leaves them in a state of offended shock. But it never hurts to have a Crane owe you a favor.

Dragon : So near, and yet so far. The Dragon possess mystical insights, and can, on occasion, teach us a thing or two, but they're so interested in their own riddles, and in finding new ways that they seem to forget that under the Celestial Order, right and wrong and not simply interesting concepts, but karmic laws.

What a bunch of losers. What's the point of mystical insight and enlightenment if you never get off your rear, come down out of your nice comfy mountains, and do something about the problems you're so keen on pointing out? They're like all of the worst aspects of the Phoenix with an added dose of pointlessly cryptic self-indulgence. Individual Dragon samurai can be some of the best people you'll ever know. The clan as a whole is... a decidedly different story.

Lion : Their single-minded fixation upon war means we can never trust them- but nor do we need to fear betrayal, as their honor is indisputable. While we differ on the role of priests in war, they at least respect and honor the traditions of the Empire.

You always know where you stand with the Lion. There's a lot to be said for that. They're also willing to die down to the last child to serve the Empire, and they actually throw a pretty good party. Their respect for learning is also not given enough attention. Sure, we won't always be friends, but they'll always have my deepest respect.

Scorpion : As the Shiba family motto states, "Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil." The Scorpion do so with regularity. All of the Crane's failings with almost none of their virtues. They deal in temptation and fear- neither of which should have any place in a samurai's life. Never trust a Scorpion.

What a pack of bastards! But... they have their reasons. They have a Duty, and it can be harder than any of us will ever know. I can never forgive the Scorpion as a whole for the deaths of my mother and siblings, but I can see the samurai behind the masks. I probably shouldn't trust a Scorpion, but after seeing what they'll do, what they'll lay on the line for the Empire? I can't bring myself to write them off.

Unicorn : Maybe if we use really small words they'll understand why their "traditions" must change if they are to exist within Rokugan. But we're not holding our breath. They're a proud bunch. Their Compassion is admirable, and the Ide do what they can, but... they refuse to see the harm they do to the spiritual fabric of the Empire.

Fortunes, I love these guys. Balancing their ways with the ways of the Empire, honoring their ancestors, and taking no lip? Yeah, I'm a fan.

Phoenix : You know, if we went out into the world we're trying to save a little more often, we'd have a better handle on making others understand the gravity of our statements. But since we just assume people know we're right, our words almost never end up being taken as intended...

I'm going to do two sets here: a third for Phoenix, and one for the Dragonfly. I'll note that these are from the point of view of people lacking any secret or inside knowledge

  • Crab : They are so distant from us both physically and culturally that I'm not sure they're even part of the same Empire.
  • Crane : Our extended and traditional alliance has been good for both of us, long may it continue.
  • Dragon : They claim to be enlightened and aloof but remember, we are the keepers of the Tao.
  • Lion : Their armies are readily thwarted by our superior shugenja, but why fight when we can keep them happy by supplying wives for their daimyo?
  • Scorpion : People keep saying bad things about them, but they are polite and peaceful, I don't see the problem.
  • Unicorn : They have brought foreign magic and traditions into the soul of Rokugan, and cannot be trusted.

and for the Tonbo

  • Crab : They have a dedication to their goal stronger than any other clan.
  • Crane : Always pleasant to be around.
  • Dragon : To us, they are like older siblings hard at work while we entertain their guets.
  • Lion : There is an abiding hatred from this clan that we must work hard to divert.
  • Phoenix : There are ways of magic that they do not understand, but be careful not to tell them that.
  • Scorpion : They have never been an ally of the Minor clans, be careful.
  • Unicorn : They understand the nature of change and fluidity.

The 4th edition RPG core book had nice write ups of each of the Great Clans' views of the others so I'm just going to transcribe the Crab ones, with the Unicorn edited due to the reboot.

Crane: Pathetic, weak socialites with scarcely a warrior among them. They belittle us? Put them on the Wall for a week and see how many are left alive. They will beg for our protection then.

Dragon: Their ways are strange and nonsensical. They seem to be capable warriors when their hand is forced, but why do they wait so long to enter the battle? Perhaps they are cowards.

Lion: They alone understand what it means to wage war, but even they have no appreciation for what it is we do each day. Perhaps one day we can be true brothers, but until they gain perspective, they are to be respected but not feared.

Phoenix: Pacifism has no place among samurai. We are called to make war, and to weep over the deaths of your enemies is weakness.

Scorpion: There is no one more useless than a Scorpion! All the weakness of the Crane, plus their pointless love of deception and lies. They are so convinced of themselves that they think they are invulnerable. We will see about that, perhaps soon.

Unicorn: They understand what it means to be ostracized because they do not care for the peculiar rules and fashions that command the day in other courts.

Minor Clans: They understand what it means to struggle to survive every day, even if they command no resources to speak of. We treat them kindly, but ultimately they are of little consequence.

I also particularly like the Scorpion's view of the Lion: Anger and honor are easy to manipulate. Both in one clan makes them little more than pawns. Dangerous pawns, yes, but pawns just the same.

I can't give me Great Clan's view on the others since I don't have one....(Due to the new timeline.)

But I can give a view ( Based on the new timeline ) from the Greatest Clan :D

Not leftovers from the old game.

  • Crab : Allies. Cousins. And hopefully friends. Their cause is just and all those that turn them away are fools.
  • Crane : Pity them. For they were once great. If their leadership doesn't improve, they will be nothing but a family of the Scorpion soon.
  • Dragon : When a mountain moves under the waves, a Tsunami comes. Watch them.
  • Lion : Do not let their new Champion fool you, he is the exception. If a typical Lion meets the Future on the road, they will kill the Future. Like the Crane they look to often to the past for their Glory.
  • Phoenix : Powerful and full of pride. We know what it takes to teach them humility. Pray they don't need that lesson taught again.
  • Scorpion : They whisper in the ear of the Emperor and think themselves Lords. Tsuruchi and his Wasps know exactly who the Scorpion are.
  • Unicorn : They alone of all the Clans have the ability to understand what we have seen outside of the Empire. We shall see if they decide to use that ability.

Well currently a solid Lion player while waiting for my dark lord Fu Leng to rise so here goes....

Crab - Nice solid armor, I wonder if my Fire Oni would love marinade with that soft tender flesh inside during his barbecue.

Crane - Ok let me get this straight men, none of you are ever allowed to go Pattaya or Seoul!

Phoenix - I love them! Like my Champion even married one of them so who am I to disagree right? Now did they had a parchment again that is supposed to be on black paper? Pretty sure they would love to share that to me if they had one.

Scorpion - Asking me to choose between Kachiko and Junzo? Like seriously? Oh you mean Junzo went to the same hospital as Hotaru? Alright then hard choice indeed.

Dragon - I should ask Boss Toturi if he love to hike sometime. Maybe I should just apply two weeks leave myself....high ground, cool air, nice poker table...

Unicorn - Uni...who? Weren’t they away or something on a faraway land? Oh they came back...mostly Otakus? No wonder they had so many souvenirs... new magic, new horses, new hug pillows, new posters, new action figures...and wait is that Cosplay?

They are not serious, no wonder they will get their clan pack last.

Lion - Ahem! Loyal soldier here at your service! “No sir there was no goblin sneaking around!”

Edited by Yogo Rye X
5 hours ago, Coyote Walks said:

I can't give me Great Clan's view on the others since I don't have one...

Pirate, please go.

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

Pirate, please go.

Have you seen Yoritomo?

I spent the last half hour at L5R on Saturday listening to our top Lion players go on and on about the different ways they are going to use him.

We aren't going anywhere.

....Worlds. We'll go there. :lol: