"Spined Threshers only After each Command Phase you may perform a speed-1 {shift} sideways, even if this card is exhausted."

I've heard people on the forum believing this can be used to disengage from a unit. Considering Rules reference states "to disengage, the unit must perform the shirt in the direction directly opposite of it's contacted edge for that engagement." I would assume the only way you could use this shift to disengage would be if you are engaged on the side, aka flanked. If your front is engaged at all, you can't use this to disengage. and using this shift to reposition would result int he same contacted edges due to 73.3.

Am I missing something that I should consider before I encounter some Scuttling Threshers?

No, that's accurate.

Never flank a scuttling horror

20 minutes ago, Jukey said:

Never flank a scuttling horror

On 6/28/2018 at 8:33 PM, Jukey said:

Never flank a scuttling horror

Or flank scuttling horrors with units that like to charge over and over again...

They can choose too disengage making flanking them at best a fifty-fifty if you shold attack or charge.

They should make it after all commands like ravos

The real kicker is if you engage on a flank, they can exhaust to give you a stun while attacking, then shift away after dials are set, and your left unable to charge next turn, while they rally, rinse, and repeat.

21 hours ago, Jukey said:

The real kicker is if you engage on a flank, they can exhaust to give you a stun while attacking, then shift away after dials are set, and your left unable to charge next turn, while they rally, rinse, and repeat.

Gross.

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:45 PM, Jukey said:

The real kicker is if you engage on a flank, they can exhaust to give you a stun while attacking, then shift away after dials are set, and your left unable to charge next turn, while they rally, rinse, and repeat.

18 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Gross.

This exactly. That sounds so awful. Though the unit is doing their job and tying up the ST for a while.

On 7/28/2018 at 11:27 AM, Curlycross said:

This exactly. That sounds so awful. Though the unit is doing their job and tying up the ST for a while.

On 7/26/2018 at 7:45 PM, Jukey said:

The real kicker is if you engage on a flank, they can exhaust to give you a stun while attacking, then shift away after dials are set, and your left unable to charge next turn, while they rally, rinse, and repeat.

On 7/27/2018 at 4:51 PM, Parakitor said:

Gross.

My gawd, thank heavens to Betsy no other unit has that kind of circumstantial power to force a 50/50 guessing game when engaged.

*cough* Leonx and their cat bounce *cough*

We will now return to the regularly scheduled concerns about Uthuk balance.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am actually worried about balance and this card in particular. But this particular irritating feature of it already existed and players learned to cope.

46 minutes ago, Church14 said:

My gawd, thank heavens to Betsy no other unit has that kind of circumstantial power to force a 50/50 guessing game when engaged.

*cough* Leonx and their cat bounce *cough*

We will now return to the regularly scheduled concerns about Uthuk balance.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am actually worried about balance and this card in particular. But this particular irritating feature of it already existed and players learned to cope. 

There are quite a few differences between the Leonx and Threshers:

If you flank a Leonx, they don't get rerolls, and if they only have one rank, they are threat 1, unlike the Threshers who remain at threat two, and most likely have a reroll. Threshers will likely do 6 damage to a flanking unit, and a 4 tray Leonx on average does 3.5. Leonx top out at 10, or 8 and a mortal, and Threshers top out at 15.

At 20 health, 2 trays of Threshers are harder to kill than 4 trays of Leonx (comparable unit price).

Leonx don't just auto dump a panic, or just about automatically trigger a level 2 panic test every time they swing.

Leonx can't selectively dump a stun on you at the worst possible time.

And probably the biggest thing: the timing. With Leonx, you can still look at their dial and KNOW, for certain, they will still be engaged with you until at least initiative 6, or 5 if they have NC Tabards. You can still plan around what you have at your given initiatives, and what they are likely to do. With Scuttling, you have none of that. So yes, there is a guessing element with Leonx, as there is with most things in this game. When Scuttling is in play, you have to make a completely blind guess - yes, you can still try to figure out what action they are likely to take, but the number of possible permutations when you don't know if they'll be engaged or not is beyond anything else we've seen, I would argue.

Just to make sure it's clear, I am in no way saying you (or anyone else playing Uthuk) is a bad player, or that your wins are invalid. I play Uthuk too - they suit my style (I like to play aggressively), I like the theme and the models, and it certainly doesn't hurt that the faction is really good. I fully admit that I don't think I would be having the kind of run I've had in Runewars tournaments over the past several months if I was not playing Uthuk. I like to think I am a good enough player to still win some games here and there; I have played quite a few games now against other players who I consider very good, and have had some games that were just not close, and not because I massively outplayed them.

Sorry for continuing to drag this rules question off-topic, but I don't think people are wrong to be concerned that Uthuk seems to be the most powerful faction right now, and that Scuttling Horror is problematic, primarily due to the timing. Maybe someone will come up with a clever way to deal with it without sacrificing their other matchups, or maybe some of the new things coming in to the game will bring better balance - I am definitely optimistic about the new releases. But for now...

3 hours ago, Church14 said:

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am actually worried about balance and this card in particular. But this particular irritating feature of it already existed and players learned to cope.

Yes. Except for the stun. But if I understand correctly, when they scuttle in and attack, the defensive unit will also get a chance to attack, so if the Uthuk player does this repeatedly, all it's really doing is tying down a unit for longer. And if the defensive unit is smart, they'll reform when the Threshers disengage so that their attack gets a bonus die. It's still gross that they can drop a stun on you, preventing the guessing game because your charge is cancelled, unless you have Aggressive Musician, which is another way to cope, bringing it back to the 50/50 game instead of you're unit watching them get to play.

2 hours ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

And  probably the biggest thing: the timing. With  Leonx, you can still look at their dial and KNOW, for certain, they will still be engaged with you until at least initiative 6, or 5 if they have NC Tabards.

Maybe I’m wrong..., but:

Initiative 3 or Initiative 2 with Raven Tabards. Dial in a straight 1 march and then shift. March “ends” with you in base contact. You still get your bonus action. Then you shift directly away. You can nearly guarantee that Leonx don’t have to stick around for a fight they don’t want. So just as maddening and applies regardless of the facing you hit the Leonx on. Doesn’t require an upgrade that can theoretically (but not likely) be lost.

Jukey pulls this all the time when he has Leonx on the table. I learned to cope, to try to read the field and figure out what makes most sense for my opponent instead of treating it like a guessing game where my opponent doesn’t make logical choices. In a game night an opponent may do silly things. At a tourney, people are more concerned about points and will generally follow game theory. This means you can reasonably predict their actions.

I’m certainly not comparing Leonx to Threshers as a unit. Two wildly different units with different capabilities.

One of the oppresive factores with this card is that it before anny activation effectivly hiding ekstra information from your opponent. Only the diles did this before. The wierd thing is that almost only scutteling horror are beaing dissucused when the devouring maw uppgrade is a sort of strong vesion of vicera goblet for spine threshers too three points.

It is true, the leonx can shift bounce at 2 or 3 depending on if it has raven tabards, but remember, it actually has to activate to do this. The scuttling shift to disengage is fairly niche, and it's not the part of the card I really care about. If you engage a zoid on a flank than you've already made a bad choice.

The scuttle itself is a pretty good game mechanic(although sequenced quite poorly), at 3 points it's not unfairly priced, and makes for more critical thinking when facing it. Timing aside, I wouldn't care about the card at all with just the first paragraph.

What I do care about though, are banes, and stuns are a pretty big deal. So far the game has placed a fairly heavy price on stuns. If it were skill to stun, or surge to stun, or discard a die to stun, I would say that's fine. But the card already has a decent 3 point ability, and that's what irks me.

I get that most games it only will trigger once, and so it's not like the sky is falling. Just seems very cheap for a unit that is already handing out free panic and hefty panic tests and getting free mobility.

I'm probably overreacting, I tend to do that. And when Faolan hits the field he'll be a great scuttling hunter, as he can get stunned and still charge. For now I'll try to counterplay it, and rely on less techy builds that need their modifiers...some frontline troops will be nice.

2 hours ago, Jukey said:

It is true, the leonx can shift bounce at 2 or 3 depending on if it has raven tabards, but remember, it actually has to activate to do this. The scuttling shift to disengage is fairly niche, and it's not the part of the card I really care about. If you engage a zoid on a flank than you've already made a bad choice. 

The scuttle itself is a pretty good game mechanic(although sequenced quite poorly), at 3 points it's not unfairly priced, and makes for more critical thinking when facing it. Timing aside, I wouldn't care about the card at all with just the first paragraph.

What I do care about though, are banes, and stuns are a pretty big deal. So far the game has placed a fairly heavy price on stuns. If it were skill to stun, or surge to stun, or discard a die to stun, I would say that's fine. But the card already has a decent 3 point ability, and that's what irks me.

I get that most games it only will trigger once, and so it's not like the sky is falling. Just seems very cheap for a unit that is already handing out free panic and hefty panic tests and getting free mobility.

I'm probably overreacting, I tend to do that. And when Faolan hits the field he'll be a great scuttling hunter, as he can get stunned and still charge. For now I'll try to counterplay it, and rely on less techy builds that need their modifiers...some frontline troops will be nice.

I agree with you, the disengage hasn't come up for me, personally. While I also agree that you probably shouldn't flank a Scuttle Thresher unit, what it does do is turn something that is a benefit really anywhere else (engaging on the flank) in the game into a negative, and that can definitely feel bad during gameplay.

Also, @Church14 - I know you aren't directly comparing the two, but I thought I would highlight a few things since they are the two units that have great "bounce" abilities.

The other thing about that Leonx bounce (and I should have pointed out more fully before) is that it IS limited. Basically, it's a binary if you are engaged on the front - they will either be engaged, or less than range 1 in front if you. If you think they'll bounce, dial in a later charge. If you don't, or can swing before they do, then dial the attack.

With Threshers, they can disengage, and then it's a guessing game of what they'll do.

But as @Jukey suggested, that's not the biggest problem. They can abuse it in so many ways. I played a game against Latari a few days ago where my opponent wanted to set up a 4 tray Leonx for a charge on my Threshers, but could not find a good way to do it that I wouldn't be able to potentially dodge it, and be set up to charge them (possibly even on the flank) in response. The threat of the Scuttle is sometimes just as good as the Scuttle itself. It also can do filthy things with terrain, as with the example that I mentioned from my game with @JGrand , and several other instances I have seen of them abusing terrain.

It's not that there is absolutely no counterplay at all, but the counterplay either forces list-building changes, in which case it warps the game around it to some degree, or forces sometimes sub-optimal strategy to play around it in ways we haven't seen in this game to date.

4 hours ago, Jukey said:

The scuttle itself is a pretty good game mechanic(although sequenced quite poorly), at 3 points it's not unfairly priced, and makes for more critical thinking when facing it. Timing aside, I wouldn't care about the card at all with just the first paragraph.

What I do care about though, are banes, and stuns are a pretty big deal. So far the game has placed a fairly heavy price on stuns. If it were skill to stun, or surge to stun, or discard a die to stun, I would say that's fine. But the card already has a decent 3 point ability, and that's what irks me.

I get that most games it only will trigger once, and so it's not like the sky is falling. Just seems very cheap for a unit that is already handing out free panic and hefty panic tests and getting free mobility.

See, I look at it from the other direction. I compare Scuttling Horror to another upgrade that hands out a bane for 3 points, Vicious Roots. Threshers are a much stronger unit choice than Scions already, being a consistent damage unit with good survivability, similar speed (initiative and movement) to a Scion, a quicker attack, and threat three with built-in re-rolls at two trays for an astounding per-tray discount of 22%. Which isn't quite as bad as I made it sound, because the Scion gets some utility out of handing out immobilize and being cheaper at 1 tray, based on its role in the surrounding army.

But then you look at the upgrades they can take to give out more banes. Scions get a 3 point immobilize that can be used at range late in the turn and then gets discarded. Okay, nice. It's good, useful with the army's ranged units, and priced quite fairly, when all is said and done. Even though it immobilizes itself to do it. Now, for the same three points, Threshers get a stun they can hand out in melee. And then ready again, if the stunning is awesome in a matchup. As you say, stuns are good. I'd say that's not unfairly expensive just with that. As an example, a stun will neutralize a Leonx bounce, trapping the Leonx in melee even if the Leonx thought it was engaging on its own terms. Or it can prevent a unit that survives the Threshers from charging. It can lock out most reform orders, or blank bonus attack symbols on the dial.

Oh, and they get a crazy bluff/maneuverability boost for free.

3 hours ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

A  lso  , @Church14 - I know you aren't dire  c  tly comparing  the two, but I thought I would highlight a few things since they are the two units that have great "bounce" abili  ties  . 

 The other thing about that Leonx bounce  (and I should have pointed out more fully before) is that it IS limited. Basically, it's a binary if you are engaged on the front - the  y will either be engaged, or less than range 1 in front if you. If you think they'll bounce, dial in a later charge. If you don't, or can swin  g before they do, then dial the attack.    

Well. Leonx bounce works under ANY engagement. Any combination of facings allows for a cat bounce. It isn’t limited.

If you mean limited by distance 1, so are the Threshers.

If your argument is that you can just dial in that charge to try and catch them, the same applies to Threshers.

My concern with the card stems from what I can do near terrain. On an open table, Scuttling Horror really feels more like it is just an exhaust to stun 3 point upgrade.

This is less of a rules discussion at this point, so I'll just add that after having played 4 games with Scuttling Horror, I hate that card.

1 minute ago, Budgernaut said:

This is less of a rules discussion at this point, so I'll just add that after having played 4 games with Scuttling Horror, I hate that card.

Aw, don't leave us hanging. Tell us why. (It's because you forgot the trigger, isn't it?)

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

Aw, don't leave us hanging. Tell us why. (It's because you forgot the trigger, isn't it?)

Yes!! (I do forget this trigger all the time, but that's not why I hate it.)

Okay, so all 4 of the games were with me using Scuttling Horror and 1 had Scuttling Horror on the other side. It twisted my brain so hard to try to figure out where the Threshers were going to go. Maybe it gets better with time, but I did not find it a fun experience. Plus, I'm convinced that Spined Threshers are top tier even without Scuttling Horror, which makes this powerful ability such a head-scratcher. What @Datskor said about Devouring Maws is so true. It's a cheaper version of Viscera Goblet that triggers way more often. It is an amazing upgrade and yet, nobody talks about it because it is so overshadowed by Scuttling Horror. @kaffis had another phenomenal point about the strength of the stun ability alone. But does the ability really break the game? I don't think so. If I face a couple more armies of Scuttling Horrors, I think I'll learn more about how to react to it. I think the major problem is the cost. If it triggered before the end phase, along with Insatiable Hunger, maybe 3 points would be okay (maybe!). If it triggered before the command tool is revealed, like the Flesh Rippers, 5 or 6 points seems more appropriate. If it is going to trigger after command tools are set but before anyone can activate, like it currently does, it seems like it should be at least 10 points. I just look at how much the Ardus Ix'Erebus figure upgrade costs and I just can't figure out why Scuttling Horror is so cheap.

But do you know what else they could do to fix this situation? Make Spined Threshers more expensive at every configuration on the costing table. See, then the Scuttling Horror tax is built into the unit. Since each health is worth more points, it also makes Devouring Maws look more appealing. And finally, This means people who have two or three Uthuk Y'llan Army Expansions would feel even more inclined to purchase a Spined Threshers Unit Expansion to get the cheap card that is auto-include since many would feel the unit to be unplayable without the unique upgrades. So FFG balances the game while still incentivising expansion purchases. Not that they need to, since they have already sold a bunch of these by now.

12 hours ago, Church14 said:

Well  . Leonx bounce works under ANY engagement. Any combination of facings allows for a cat bounce. It isn’t limited.

If you mean limited by distance 1, so are the Threshers.

If your argument is that you can just dial in that charge to try and catch them, the same applies to Threshers.

My concern with the card stems from what I can do near terrain. On an open table, Scuttling Horror really feels more like it is just an exhaust to stun 3 point upgrade.

Yes, Leonx can bounce from any position, and Threshers can't, that is certainly true. Although if we are face-to-face, I don't care if my Threshers can't bounce. But that is a movement option that the Leonx have and Threshers don't.

Here is what I mean by limited. If you want to bounce your Leonx, that is all you are doing. The Threshers are not always limited by distance 1, and while you can often catch them with a charge, there is a chance they can do something back to you, which doesn't exist with Leonx.

If Threshers bounce, they have the whole dial to play with. Some examples to explain what I mean:

I bounce away from your unit that flanked me. Here's what you can do:

Charge me before initiative 4 (or at 4 if you have initiative). Maybe I dial in the attack and hit/panic modifier. Now I am taking a modded attack against your unmodded one - even with you flanking me, a lot of times I come out ahead, so maybe I am willing to do that. Are you willing to take the damage back?

So you don't want to crash in to me before 4, because your unit might die, and you decide to wait until 5. What if I have already marched three forward by then, and you whiff on your charge? Maybe I have even entered terrain, ready to pop out next turn and flank charge you.

Maybe you wait until 5, but I have initiative, and I reform and march back into you, canceling your charge? Or I march 4, and you miss?

Or maybe you have initiative, but I know you can only charge on 4 and 6, and that your unit can't risk charging early. Maybe I reform on 5 and take your charge head on, betting that I'll survive, and swing back at you next turn before you can finish me off.

My point is that if the Leonx bounce, you know they are done. If the Threshers bounce, the guessing game is further compounded.

While I completely agree with you that the disengage isn't the main issue with the card, I don't think we should overlook or wave off the effectiveness of the Scuttle to disengage. Sure, it probably doesn't come up very often, and probably less often as people realize what happens if they flank a Thresher, but it opens up a good deal of possibilities.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the point of terrain being the bigger issue, and that the disengage is a little niche. Even in an open battlefield though, I will still happily take it for three points. A stun at an inopportune time can be killer, and I'll take the pre-activation shift, even without terrain, all day. It can change the angle and distance of things in a way that messes with your opponent, and may even cause a flank engagement where you didn't have one without it. I'm curious about the games you have played where it didn't feel worth it - what was your experience with the Thresher unit as a whole in those games?

Can SC be used from to disengage while in terrain, and if so do I touch the terrain with my side.

57 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

Can SC be used from to disengage while in terrain, and if so do I touch the terrain with my side.

I see no reason why you cannot use Scuttling Horror to disengage while in terrain. However, I'm not sure about which side should be touching terrain. The rules for exiting terrain say that when performing a shift action, you must have your side or front edges touching the terrain you exited. Scuttling Horror allows you to execute a shift. While the direction of the shift is constrained to sideways movement, that movement is irrelevant to exiting terrain. Intuitively, one could reason that your side should be touching the terrain because of the sideways movement of Scuttling Horror, but as far as I can tell, that would need to be explicitly stated in the rules for Scuttling Horror. My interpretation, then, is that when exiting terrain with Scuttling Horror, you may choose to have either your side or front edge touching the terrain.

I actually think @Bhelliom has a good argument in a different thread. Either way, I think clarification would be most appreciated.

I felt this take merited its own thread: