Could the Phoenix be confusing their elemental imbalance problem by associating two separate issues (the tsunami and the elemental imbalance)? Maybe that's why they can't get a good handle on the issue. Perhaps the tsunami is a result (either deliberately or inadvertently) of the Mantis using the kami in this way off the Crane coast to raid them. At least that's where my mind went while reading the story.

Feels to me that by weakening the Crane's naval presence (and allying with the Crab) the Mantis are trying to set themselves up for naval superiority along the coast. Right now if they wanted to invade the Crane coast then Lion would not come to Crane's aid and Crab also would not aid the Crane. The Crane ally the Unicorn isn't positioned well at all to assist them in defending their coast. The Phoenix seem paralyzed by their own problems. Seems like the right time to strike for Mantis if that's their plan. Crane are in a pretty bad spot.

the tsunami was the phoenix fault, or so the elemental masters seem to agree on. without spoiling too much from the novella, this is talked about early on.

2 hours ago, llamaman88 said:

the tsunami was the phoenix fault, or so the elemental masters seem to agree on. without spoiling too much from the novella, this is talked about early on.

That's what the elemental master say, but I don't recall anything in that book leading me to believe that is a fact. the only thing presented as a cause is Meishodo, which was already talked about in the core set fiction. Also it may or may not be the actual cause it. Though certainly it seems to be the smoking gun considering how the Ishika we've met so far are reacting to it.

The former master of water performed a ceremony and then a tsunami happened. I guess they could be wrong about it not being a coincidence?

54 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

The former master of water performed a ceremony and then a tsunami happened. I guess they could be wrong about it not being a coincidence?

Given the personalities of all of the Elemental Masters we have met, I would be very surprised if the previous one would have retired if there was some reasonable doubt that she was responsible. I mean, can you imagine Theresa May or Donald Trump retiring unless there was absolute proof?

7 hours ago, phillos said:

Perhaps the tsunami is a result (either deliberately or inadvertently) of the Mantis using the kami in this way off the Crane coast to raid them. At least that's where my mind went while reading the story.

So we'll just mark you down as not wanting a Jade shipment?

More seriously, the reason (until this story) that the Crane are not looking at the coast as closely is that they are licking their wounds after the Tsunami. This tactic wouldn't have worked as well before the Tsunami. It is indicated in the conversion with Yoritomo that these hit-and-run storm attacks are used to secure Jade, which wasn't a thing until the alliance with the Crab (Three years after the Tsunami). And that theory doesn't cover the mainland at all.

You are also suggesting that the Mantis are putting the Home Islands at risk. If a Mantis caused the Tsunami and was found out, Yoritomo would have strung that person up for the gulls to feed on, as an example of what happens to those that betray the Clan.

7 hours ago, Coyote Walks said:

So we'll just mark you down as not wanting a Jade shipment?

More seriously, the reason (until this story) that the Crane are not looking at the coast as closely is that they are licking their wounds after the Tsunami. This tactic wouldn't have worked as well before the Tsunami. It is indicated in the conversion with Yoritomo that these hit-and-run storm attacks are used to secure Jade, which wasn't a thing until the alliance with the Crab (Three years after the Tsunami). And that theory doesn't cover the mainland at all.

You are also suggesting that the Mantis are putting the Home Islands at risk. If a Mantis caused the Tsunami and was found out, Yoritomo would have    strung that person up for the gulls to feed on, as an example of w  hat hap  pens to those that betray the Clan.

Think Crane don’t know it but it was actually their Unicorn friend that caused that huge tsunami.

Kudaka wanted a good shower so she requested from the water Kami who oblidged..grudgingly. And when he was about to rest, guess what, some Otaku used meishodo magic and forced the Kami to fill up her swimming pool.

Can only imagine what the pissed off water Kami did after that.

EDIT: think might have been the air kami. Even more work for him to push all those clouds and create waves.

15 hours ago, Coyote Walks said:

So we'll just mark you down as not wanting a Jade shipment?

More seriously, the reason (until this story) that the Crane are not looking at the coast as closely is that they are licking their wounds after the Tsunami. This tactic wouldn't have worked as well before the Tsunami. It is indicated in the conversion with Yoritomo that these hit-and-run storm attacks are used to secure Jade, which wasn't a thing until the alliance with the Crab (Three years after the Tsunami). And that theory doesn't cover the mainland at all.

You are also suggesting that the Mantis are putting the Home Islands at risk. If a Mantis caused the Tsunami and was found out, Yoritomo would have strung that person up for the gulls to feed on, as an example of what happens to those that betray the Clan.

I'm all for it Mantis. Go invade those Crane jerkfaces

I'm not suggesting the Mantis is the primary cause for the elemental imbalance. All I'm saying is the Phoenix might be having so much trouble repairing and getting a handle on the situation because they are associating several different issues all as the same problem. Not an uncommon mistake when troubleshooting a problem. I'm suspicious of Phoenix's primary culprit Meishodo being the lone cause only because Unicorn has been back in Rokugan for a long time now using Meishodo.

12 minutes ago, phillos said:

I'm all for it Mantis. Go invade those Crane jerkfaces

I'm not suggesting the Mantis is the primary cause for the elemental imbalance. All I'm saying is the Phoenix might be having so much trouble repairing and getting a handle on the situation because they are associating several different issues all as the same problem. Not an uncommon mistake when troubleshooting a problem. I'm suspicious of Phoenix's primary culprit Meishodo being the lone cause only because Unicorn has been back in Rokugan for a long time now using Meishodo.

All signs point to it being a combination of issues, Meishodo may be one of the contributing factors as may be the Mantis storm shenanigans, but again these have been going of for quite a while so one would have figured on them happening much earlier if that were the primary cause.

Far more likely is the rise of the Shadowlands and a weakening of the Celestial Order due to the resurgence of Jigoku, possibly aggravated by the other two factors. There was too much previously established lore leading into the Second Day of Thunder and the importance of that timeline will still dictate many story beats I'm afraid.

Now you don't have to repeat the exact same scenario, after all what are the odds that the 7 Thunders will have all ended up being Clan Champions (or equivalents), and it would be far more interesting if the Thunders are a more random assortment of characters who have to succeed despite being of lesser stature. Just picture it Kakita Kaizen, Matsu Beiona, Mirumoto Raitsugo, Hida Tomonatsu, Isawa Masahiro, Shosuro Miyako and Utaku Yumino rock up on the Second Day of Thunder with the heir of Shinsei and are like don't worry guys we got this.

As to the Mantis invasion that would be somewhat shortsighted. Far better to remain the bogeyman lurking on the seas, difficult to track and pin down, our Islands lend us a high level of protection by virtue of the difficulty landing troops on them would cause. Being set up on the mainland just makes it easier to predict where we will be and to bring forces against us there. Far better for out good friends the Crab to be "forced" to exert the claims that the Yasuki held on those lands prior to their exile from the Crane and to manage those lands for the good of the Empire since the Crane have proven themselves unable to protect them on their own.

4 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Just picture it Kakita Kaizen, Matsu Beiona, Mirumoto Raitsugo, Hida Tomonatsu, Isawa Masahiro, Shosuro Miyako and Utaku Yumino rock up on the Second Day of Thunder with the heir of Shinsei and are like don't worry guys we got this.

I can picture it. And then I picture some other random Crab killing Hida Tomato with jade strike. Because she's already dead. ?

2 minutes ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

I can picture it. And then I picture some other random Crab killing Hida Tomato with jade strike. Because she's already dead. ?

Sure, but she fit my theme better of the unique three costers from the core set being the Thunders, plus they match the original Thunders families (I give Kaizen a pass since Kakita was Doji's husband and their line could have followed either family bloodline). Nothing says she can't have had a sister who following her Gempuku decided to adopt the same name and fulfill the legacy her sister left behind.

22 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Far more likely is the rise of the Shadowlands and a weakening of the Celestial Order due to the resurgence of Jigoku, possibly aggravated by the other two factors. There was too much previously established lore leading into the Second Day of Thunder and the importance of that timeline will still dictate many story beats I'm afraid.

Again, I'm not specifically disagreeing with you. Again, though--and especially for the benefit of those newer to the game and who entered L5R with this new FFG setting--the bolded part above shouldn't be taken as a given. So, before folks race off to the L5R wiki or Kaze no Shiro to study up on what happened previously to see what's going to happen this time around...don't assume that any of that earlier stuff is dictating anything in particular about this new story. One of the interesting--and challenging!--parts of telling this new story is doing so in a way that surprises long-time fans of the game, while still keeping everyone engaged.

To put it another way, maybe a better way of saying it is that the old lore is going to dictate many of the new setting's story ELEMENTS, but not necessarily the story BEATS. For example, there are still seven Great Clans, all jockeying for power around a Throne whose occupant(s)...let's say, "have issues". That's a story element. Shoju killing the Emperor at the outset of the Scorpion Clan Coup is a story beat, but it's quite possible that nothing like that is going to happen this time. The existence of the Shadowlands and its hardwired objective of overrunning the Empire (which we know is true this time around) is an element; Fu Leng possessing Hantei XXXIX is a beat (which, once more, may not happen...) And so on!

4 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

Again, I'm not specifically disagreeing with you. Again, though--and especially for the benefit of those newer to the game and who entered L5R with this new FFG setting--the bolded part above shouldn't be taken as a given. So, before folks race off to the L5R wiki or Kaze no Shiro to study up on what happened previously to see what's going to happen this time around...don't assume that any of that earlier stuff is dictating anything in particular about this new story. One of the interesting--and challenging!--parts of telling this new story is doing so in a way that surprises long-time fans of the game, while still keeping everyone engaged.

To put it another way, maybe a better way of saying it is that the old lore is going to dictate many of the new setting's story ELEMENTS, but not necessarily the story BEATS. For example, there are still seven Great Clans, all jockeying for power around a Throne whose occupant(s)...let's say, "have issues". That's a story element. Shoju killing the Emperor at the outset of the Scorpion Clan Coup is a story beat, but it's quite possible that nothing like that is going to happen this time. The existence of the Shadowlands and its hardwired objective of overrunning the Empire (which we know is true this time around) is an element; Fu Leng possessing Hantei XXXIX is a beat (which, once more, may not happen...) And so on!

Yes that was my poor wording I was more referring to the existence of the Second Day of Thunder as the major beat that has to happen and to get there we will need to see certain things like the Clans in conflict and the eventual rise of an external Shadowlands threat to unite them as the beats that will get us there. But yes it is probably better to call them story elements than beats.

That said, even though it may not be consistent with the new story I do still encourage others to go read up on the O5R timeline and the Second Day of Thunder as it is still a good read, although now in Legacy Timeline format so should only be read as such.

15 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Yes that was my poor wording I was more referring to the existence of the Second Day of Thunder as the major beat that has to happen and to get there we will need to see certain things like the Clans in conflict and the eventual rise of an external Shadowlands threat to unite them as the beats that will get us there. But yes it is probably better to call them story elements than beats.

That said, even though it may not be consistent with the new story I do still encourage others to go read up on the O5R timeline and the Second Day of Thunder as it is still a good read, although now in Legacy Timeline format so should only be read as such.

Why exactly do we need a second Second Day of Thunder?

13 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Yes that was my poor wording I was more referring to the existence of the Second Day of Thunder as the major beat that has to happen and to get there we will need to see certain things like the Clans in conflict and the eventual rise of an external Shadowlands threat to unite them as the beats that will get us there. But yes it is probably better to call them story elements than beats.

That said, even though it may not be consistent with the new story I do still encourage others to go read up on the O5R timeline and the Second Day of Thunder as it is still a good read, although now in Legacy Timeline format so should only be read as such.

Why does the Second Day of Thunder "have to happen" in the new story? Once more, I'd emphasize I'm not saying it won't...just that by no means does it "have to"...!

That said, though, you're quite correct--by all means, go check out the old story, because it really is awesome overall (there are bits of it that are less awesome, but that's true for pretty much every story, and not just in L5R). Just don't auto-assume ANY of it applies to the new setting.

1 minute ago, Saibot said:

Why exactly do we need a second Second Day of Thunder?

3 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

Why does the Second Day of Thunder "have to happen" in the new story? Once more, I'd emphasize I'm not saying it won't...just that by no means does it "have to"...!

That said, though, you're quite correct--by all means, go check out the old story, because it really is awesome overall (there are bits of it that are less awesome, but that's true for pretty much every story, and not just in L5R). Just don't auto-assume ANY of it applies to the new setting.

We don't need to see the exact Second Day of Thunder, but operating under the premise that the further back in Imperial History you go the more accurate information is likely to be (barring specific references to things that didn't happen) the confrontation with Fu Leng that the Second Day of Thunder represented is too central an element of the story setting to completely ignore.

Nothing says that the Second Day of Thunder has to be the culmination of the first story arc mind, you could easily use it as a slow burn always there in the back ground driving events while other aspects of the story are playing out, but it should be an aspect of the narrative as events should be driving towards the eventual second confrontation with Fu Leng and his legions of Jigoku, however the story team decides to handle it.

I'm cool with DoT Part Deux not happening...........

I've been saying all along that Fu Leng is the leader Rokugan needs.

18 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I'm cool with DoT Part Deux not happening...........

I've been saying all along that Fu Leng is the leader Rokugan needs.

What are his policies? Why should I support him? Seems like he is like most politicians these days, all empty promises.

1 hour ago, Saibot said:

What are his policies? Why should I support him? Seems like he is like most politicians these days, all empty promises.

I'm confident Fu Leng will follow though on his promises for Rokugan.

He's straight from Jigoku and full of taint

Goes all out with no restraint

Parents were gods but he's not a saint

Best keep quiet if you have a complaint

Laughs at witchhunter lame face paint

He's what we want and Hantei ain't!

If the rebooted setting has Fu Leng never escape the Black Scrolls I would be super alright with that.

Yes a straight retelling of the major plot points would be pretty boring.

8 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Yes a straight retelling of the major plot points would be pretty boring.

It would also defeat the entire point of a reboot...

FFG is in the strange and interesting position that they can play bait-and-switch with the readership to a degree that you can only have when you tell a long story twice in different ways. I have some confidence they will take advantage of that well and I am fairly sure they are setting up baits with absolute awareness.

The last time I ran an L5R campaign, part way through I delivered news of Kisada's death in a duel with a Mirumoto. A couple of player's were somewhat surprised.

While i personally enjoyed the story there are some points i'd like to discuss:

1) wasn't the Crane shugenja somewhat reckless with both her offering to the kami?

I mean, ofc she was looking for an immediate and effective result but i do question the price for the result she was trying to achieve:

- a wild card just to disspate a cloud

- her own ability for a single powerful strike that didn't really accomplish much and rather acted as a delaying tactic rather than a decisive move ( i understand the fact that the ship wasn't an enticing target formthe mantis anymore but nothing stopped them from sinking the ship out of spite either)

2) let's revisit the Crane plan for a moment

>ships have been dissappearing/lost to storms and other unfortunate accidents > She uses the mercantile ship full of cargo to bait pirates and collect evidence

...

> plan works, pirates spotted

> crane crew is both surprised and utterly unprepared for the imminent boarding

> yojimbo runs off somewhere on the back of the ship, presumably taking part in the action (though we don't really hear about his heroic contributions to the kill count)

> shugenja goes full Rambo because you just can't trust Crane's military

> challenger approaches! Yojimbo still not offering any aid to his client (at least he's being consistent...)

>conflict resolution

> shugenja briefly celebrates before finally fainting (and no, in case you've been wondering, the yojimbo did not attempt to catch her either)

> Crane dump tons of perfectly fine contructing materials into the depth of the ocean; it's not like Crab coukd have used those...