As the title says, how many Shugenjas are there in Rokugan (and/or ratio)?

Is it like 1 out of every 100 people, 1000 people, etc.

Just a random thought I had that I never really thought to much about honestly, but now, I'm interested.

I don't think it's ever been quantified. And speaking as someone who writes for the setting, I hope it never is. As soon as you do that, you start raising constraints on things that either get adhered to (limiting storytelling), forgotten about or otherwise ignored (prompting a flurry of reaction from vigilant fans and readers) or explained away (requiring more storytelling that doesn't really advance the plot). From my perspective, it's sufficient to say "they are very rare" and leave it at that. That gives it scope to change over time, or by location or area, or by something else (clan, or family, or familial lineage, or whatever). In fact, we already see that there's no general ratio--consider the number of shugenja born to the Isawa family of the Phoenix compared, say, to the Hida family of the Crab or the Akodo family of the Lion. The incidence is high for the Isawa and low for the others, so there's pretty significant variation right there.

Now, FFG may decide to specify this at some point. Again, though, I hope they don't.

It's been deliberately left vague.

It's a significant enough number. For Dragon, we have four families: Togashi, Kitsuki, Mirumoto, & Aasha. The Togashi are the monks, some (like our champion, Yokuni) are shugenja, but not all. Kitsuki are logic-based investigators and courtiers. Mirumoto are sword masters and duelists. The Agasha are the crafters. They use alchemy and magic to create superior items. The bulk of the shugenja for Dragon are in this last family, but not all.

I think that Dragon and Phoenix have a greater number of shugenja than the other clans, but there are other ways to interact with the kami (see The Sword and the Spirits ) than merely traditional shugenjaing.

59 minutes ago, Duciris said:

It's a significant enough number. For Dragon, we have four families: Togashi, Kitsuki, Mirumoto, & Aasha. The Togashi are the monks, some (like our champion, Yokuni) are shugenja, but not all. Kitsuki are logic-based investigators and courtiers. Mirumoto are sword masters and duelists. The Agasha are the crafters. They use alchemy and magic to create superior items. The bulk of the shugenja for Dragon are in this last family, but not all.

I think that Dragon and Phoenix have a greater number of shugenja than the other clans, but there are other ways to interact with the kami (see The Sword and the Spirits ) than merely traditional shugenjaing.

Each family has at least one (and sometimes more) Shugenja themed family. Crab have the Kuni, Crane have the Asahina, Dragon have the Agasha and some Togashi, Lion have the Kitsu, Phoneix have the Isawa, Asako and anyone else who wants to study enough, Scorpion have the Yogo and Soshi, and Unicorn have the Iuchi.

Not all members of the families will be Shugenja but a disproportionate number will end up being Shugenja. Now the question becomes how powerful they are as Shugenja is not just a wizard they are the priest class in Rokugan society as well so while not all of them will have the ability to manipulate the Kami and exert great influence on them, they do the work of maintaining the clans shrines and temples and offer spiritual guidance to their clans.

If you start looking in the Way of the Bushi, there's a bit where it explains the armies. In the Phoenix army, there are 4 Legions of war-trained shugenja - one for each element. That is only the martially inclined members of the most pacifist Clan in the Empire. I reckon there must be 10s of thousands in the Empire at large.

From the wiki:

Shugenja were actually quite rare; one samurai in roughly a thousand was born with the gift, though aptitude could often be followed through family bloodlines. Some families produced more shugenja than others. The Hida family , for example, might only produce one or two shugenja in a generation, whereas the Isawa family would often produce a new group of students each year.

Remember that multiple shugenja families does not imply that those families are as large as bushi families, nor that all born within that family were blessed with the gift. For all we know, there could be 10x the number of Mirumoto as there are Agasha, and we already know that not all Agasha are shugenja (Agasha Sumiko).

Shugenja are rare enough that attacking one in a wartime skirmish is considered disgraceful, even if they're your enemy. Much of the lore doesn't make sense if Shugenja are plentiful.

I suspect the Phoenix's definition of "legion" is extremely liberal, considering they are one of the smallest clans.

5 minutes ago, SpookyElectric said:

Remember that multiple shugenja families does not imply that those families are as large as bushi families, nor that all born within that family were blessed with the gift. For all we know, there could be 10x the number of Mirumoto as there are Agasha, and we already know that not all Agasha are shugenja (Agasha Sumiko).

Shugenja are rare enough that attacking one in a wartime skirmish is considered disgraceful, even if they're your enemy. Much of the lore doesn't make sense if Shugenja are plentiful.

I suspect the Phoenix's definition of "legion" is extremely liberal, considering they are one of the smallest clans.

Yes. And plenty of Agasha are not shugenja. Dragon (at least a long, long time ago in an L5R far, far away) had its three leaders each take in those who wished to study and had talent. The Agasha "family" is much more open to allowing new people into their ranks.

Also, shugenja, I would think, should be treated like wizards: sure, there are Merlin level shugeja, but there are also Neville Longbottom. Wait, was that really his last name. *Checks Wikipedia* Apparently so. So, just because the Agasha have shugenja, many may not be able to do much with their abilities more than create really circular dishes.

@Spooky Electric , if you haven't seen me mention it elsewhere, terrific job with The Sword and the Spirits. Really bummed I finished it already. I am enthralled every time you publish a Tsukune fiction.

The novella was amazing!!!

Quick fun fact cause I'm binging all things L5R: In AEG'S The Way of the Dragon (I know, old canon), the Mirumoto daimyo (not the clan champion, mind you) was said to have 150 shugenja in his personal guard. This unit usually consisted of about 1,300 individuals meaning around 10% were shugenja.

I could believe that the daimyo's personal guard would have a higher-than-average proportion of shugenja. But in general, I'm with @DGLaderoute -- I hope FFG never nails it down to pr ecise numbers. "Rare" is the best answer for storytelling purposes.

Rare enough that you cannot swing a cat and not hit one.

By the by about Dragon, a person is not born into the Togashi family (except that one person the Dragon don't talk about of course). They are all adopted into it when they decide to become Dragon monks. So it is less that there are Togashi who are shugenja but rather there are shugenja who have decided to become Togashi such as Togashi Yama in old5R.

Also there are minor clans with a disproportionately high number of shugenja by virtue of being the only School local to that clan. These include Dragonfly, Centipede, Snake and Fox.

Honestly, I hope that if it ever detailed in on the side of shugenja being a profession and that there are as many as there are schools willing to take the interested candidates want.

Shugenja being, in general, supposed to be the result of a innate gift was something that I never liked (and wasn't really the case in 1st Ed).

1 hour ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Shugenja being, in general, supposed to be the result of a innate gift was something that I never liked (and wasn't really the case in 1st Ed).

I could be wrong, but I remember a bit in O5R where it was explained that the kami talk to a human because they had a particular affinity for said person, and if that human had a child, because they don’t really identify humans physically, they just think that child is the same human, so they talk to the child as well. Also, kami doesn’t really understand “death”, as they’re immortal, so if “their” human dies, they look for the one with the most resemblance (normally one in the same family) and start talking to that one instead, as if was the same human as always. That’s why Shugenjas often come from the same bloodlines.

14 hours ago, SpookyElectric said:

I suspect the Phoenix's definition of "legion" is extremely liberal, considering they are one of the smallest clans.

Particularly since those "legions" almost never actually showed up in the old lore, and may not even exist in the new.

6 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Particularly since those "legions" almost never actually showed up in the old lore, and may not even exist in the new.

The Elemental Guard surely exist in NuRokugan. And the Legions were part of the Elemental guard, so I’d say chances for them to exist are pretty high.

8 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

I could be wrong, but I remember a bit in O5R where it was explained that the kami talk to a human because they had a particular affinity for said person, and if that human had a child, because they don’t really identify humans physically, they just think that child is the same human, so they talk to the child as well. Also, kami doesn’t really understand “death”, as they’re immortal, so if “their” human dies, they look for the one with the most resemblance (normally one in the same family) and start talking to that one instead, as if was the same human as always. That’s why Shugenjas often come from the same bloodlines.

Neat!

Good insight. Thank y'all kindly.

13 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

I could be wrong, but I remember a bit in O5R where it was explained that the kami talk to a human because they had a particular affinity for said person, and if that human had a child, because they don’t really identify humans physically, they just think that child is the same human, so they talk to the child as well. Also, kami doesn’t really understand “death”, as they’re immortal, so if “their” human dies, they look for the one with the most resemblance (normally one in the same family) and start talking to that one instead, as if was the same human as always. That’s why Shugenjas often come from the same bloodlines.

I believe so, yes while I don't recall exactly where though.

The is also a book that mentions how the kami tend to love Akodo samurai, and if they didn't feel duty bound to be bushi they could produce some of the most talented of shugenja.